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Thread: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolteon View Post
    There isn't truly a correlation between logic and maths, and based off your argument earlier on, I don't really think being able to do/understand calculus has anything to do with every-day logic.

    Personally, I see where you're going but I think English/humanity-based subjects also require students to use logic to a certain degree - you can't produce cohesive essays or even paragraphs if you don't understand the texts/laws/information provided.

    I'm not trying to twist your words but 'humans lack logical skills, people should be better at maths,' those are strong words and although you do have a point about our country being weak at maths, I think the approach you're taking to express this problem is just a bit ... wrong.
    I mean... Creative writing is pretty BS tho. I am fine with humanities, but not English. I'd be more than happy to take Mod. His. or Eco. if I could drop English.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon_V3 View Post
    I mean... Creative writing is pretty BS tho. I am fine with humanities, but not English. I'd be more than happy to take Mod. His. or Eco. if I could drop English.
    Creative writing is bs...? What... you obviously haven't seen modules yet.
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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon_V3 View Post
    Math -> Logic
    Logic -> Legitimate Humanity
    Also, the abstract bis of English seems to be useless... I also want an explanation for why we do this.
    Although I agree that mathematics is primarily logic and that logic is very important, I also think that your ability to communicate and understand others still remain vitally important. You could be one of the most intelligent engineers or doctors in the world but if you can't understand what your client or patient is trying to say then you can't really help them out (this is especially true in the medical field where doctors have to understand emotionally what a patient is going through in order to treat them with care). I admit that my communication skills aren't great but I still think it's an important skill to develop nonetheless.

    Thereby, although I didn't enjoy English that much in Year 12 either, I do see relevance in studying English after finishing it in the HSC as it kind of sometimes asks you to ascertain the moods/atmosphere of a particular text just through words on a page and it also assesses your ability to communicate effectively and concisely. Also (a bit off topic though), combined with the fact that the UMAT has an entire section dedicated to understanding people, I still think that while logic is obviously very important, your understanding and ability to interpret others are almost if not equally important to logical knowledge.

    And also to stay on topic regarding the mathematical ability within Australia, I don't really have a particular stance on it to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon_V3 View Post
    if I could drop English.
    Lol I had the same thought as well back in Years 11 and 12 but just keep giving stuff to your teachers to mark and you can probably make it a bit more enjoyable by trying to visualise its usefulness (maybe like the stuff I said above idk haha).

    Good luck!
    Last edited by captainhelium; 5 Feb 2018 at 1:34 AM.
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    Senior Member sida1049's Avatar
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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffchuck View Post
    Creative writing is bs...? What... you obviously haven't seen modules yet.
    What are you talking about; the modules were the best part

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    You clearly have serious issues Leon. I come from Europe and studied there until year 5. I came to Australia at the end of year 7 and was learning year 4 content. School here is very relaxed and that's the biggest issue. With this relaxed environment students don't study as much and therefore perform worse. You aren't just naturally good at maths, you practice it duh! Like videogames the more you play the better you get. Anyways I don't understand why you are going crazy over this, it's not happening to you.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    I'm not bad at it - I'm just lazy. I was getting 95+ when I actually tried and put effort into it. My marks only dropped (very substantially, which shows that I'm in no way natural at the subject) when I stopped trying. Math requires effort, time and logical thinking. You have to not be lazy. I find that sometimes you can BS with humanities and get away with it due to the ability to pose literally any argument, as long as you have evidence to back it up. Math, with one solid correct answer in the end, isn't really like that.

    P.S: Math is compulsory for the SATs, which is the US version of the HSC.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainhelium View Post
    Although I agree that mathematics is primarily logic
    By that analogy english is primarily linguistics.
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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by brbstudying View Post
    I'm not bad at it - I'm just lazy. I was getting 95+ when I actually tried and put effort into it. My marks only dropped (very substantially, which shows that I'm in no way natural at the subject) when I stopped trying. Math requires effort, time and logical thinking. You have to not be lazy. I find that sometimes you can BS with humanities and get away with it due to the ability to pose literally any argument, as long as you have evidence to back it up. Math, with one solid correct answer in the end, isn't really like that.

    P.S: Math is compulsory for the SATs, which is the US version of the HSC.
    I am the laziest in my tightest social circle and still got 97/96 for 4u/3u and basically passed every other subject (standard phys chem) by the skin of my teeth (pretty sure I failed like 2 chem exams but idk what happened there)

    however I was deadset on maths 34/7 and my mind couldn't not think about maths so idk what that says about your point because I'm an extreme outlier
    If I am a conic section, then my e = ∞

    Just so we don't have this discussion in the future, my definition of the natural numbers includes 0.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Well personally, we should be allowed to drop english, if and only if you have a humanities subject.
    E.g. You may replace English with Economics or Modern History for instance.
    Maths is very important, so people should be doing 2-unit at least unless they are an absolute dropkick.
    And true, Australian schools are too lax, but we all know that.
    How the f*** do Australian universities rank so high tho?

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon_V3 View Post
    Well personally, we should be allowed to drop english, if and only if you have a humanities subject.
    E.g. You may replace English with Economics or Modern History for instance.
    Maths is very important, so people should be doing 2-unit at least unless they are an absolute dropkick.
    And true, Australian schools are too lax, but we all know that.
    How the f*** do Australian universities rank so high tho?
    First of all why are you so condescending? Seriously just because you're good at maths doesn't mean you have to look down at other people and call them trash or whatever

    I know you mentioned you had aspergers syndrome somewhere in this thread but I don't think it gives you the right to say bad things about others and if you think it does then please seek psychological help to change this

    Why do Australian universities rank so high? Well think about that again, if you think everyone is "trash" at maths think about how people enter university. Have you ever heard of what a Go8 uni is?

    And yes if you personally think people should drop english then maybe you can keep that to yourself but not advisable to say things like "why are people so trash at maths" even if it is true because people can take offense to this stuff. Do you even realise this?

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon_V3 View Post
    Well personally, we should be allowed to drop english, if and only if you have a humanities subject.
    E.g. You may replace English with Economics or Modern History for instance.
    Maths is very important, so people should be doing 2-unit at least unless they are an absolute dropkick.
    And true, Australian schools are too lax, but we all know that.
    How the f*** do Australian universities rank so high tho?
    cos of people like me who are trash at maths but good at everything else

    Now go fuck urself with a protractor

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    we're so afraid of Math when we were born, it's like a phenomenon. Of course we can't do anything instead of finding another ways that suit for our lazy brain. I just came directly to Robert Ollis , Master coaching Australia cuz I'm in Perth and watched Video lessons from Eddie Woo on Youtube.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    I don't think you can boil it down to any one thing. Here's just a few things I can think of:

    a) Primary teachers being bad at maths, or not knowing how to teach it properly.
    b) There's also a new trend in primary textbooks to teach "spiral" curriculum. Imagine you learnt a bit of differentation on Monday, then a bit of probability on Tuesday, etc etc, and you only got back around to doing differentiation in a month or even next term. You'd have forgotten it completely. Well, it seems to make sense to do this "spiral" thing in Australian primary schools - go figure.
    c) Cultural differences. Students in Australia are wayyyy laid back, and have barely any pressure or checkups. I know for a fact in certain asian countries that if you don't pass certain subjects, you have to repeat the year, or drop out of school. Not so in Australia.
    d) lowering literacy levels. with rise of media and stuff, kids don't read any more. many high school kids haven't read more than 10 chapter books in their life - including the ones forced on them at school. without literacy, comprehension becomes low, leading to low understanding of ANYTHING taught to them. including numeracy.
    e) Heck, just look at NAPLAN results. Look how low national average is - not even looking at number of students below national minimum standard (which is pretty bloody low). And everyone, including the gov, is totally fine with this.

    An example of this is timestables. Vast majority of high school kids don't know their timestables. There's a new trend which says that you don't have to know timestables and it's ok to use fingers/patterns etc. Not true at all. If you don't know fundamentals, you become slow, so h/w takes longer (ie most kids eventually stop doing maths h/w), and makes many of the harder levels of maths extremely difficult. Eg, you think you can factorise quickly or spot prime numbers if you don't know timestables by heart? Also, for the record, bostes requires timestables to be learnt "to automaticity" by year 4. But most kids don't know them to automaticity even in high school.

    there's heaps more reasons, i can't be bothered writing any more.

    also, mathematics isn't just "logic". There's lots of memorisation, understanding, learning of language (yes, maths is a language too) and notation, etc. Logic implies that someone illiterate should be able to deduce it through thought and reason (more or less) - which is not so. op is oversimplifying way too much.
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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy G Biv View Post
    ...
    You have to realise that what you're describing is a particular stereotype using postulations. Suburban schools, for example, would tend to not fit into that.

    Sure, plenty of people graduate from high school without calculus. But you know what? That's okay. The vast majority of them won't be using it anyway, and forcing them to study maths when it's largely irrelevant to their lives is just wasting their time and resources (and your's). And if they do end up realising that they need it, they'll have a better incentive to study maths than just to pass some mediocre subject in high school. Let people decide whether they want to study maths for themselves, rather than to achieve some aggregate national average number so we can pretend to be better than whatever nation and give ourselves an abject pat on the back.

    Bachelor of Science (Advanced Mathematics) III, USYD

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Roy G Biv

    Very strongly agree; well said.
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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by sida1049 View Post
    Sure, plenty of people graduate from high school without calculus. But you know what? That's okay. The vast majority of them won't be using it anyway, and forcing them to study maths when it's largely irrelevant to their lives is just wasting their time and resources (and your's). And if they do end up realising that they need it, they'll have a better incentive to study maths than just to pass some mediocre subject in high school. Let people decide whether they want to study maths for themselves, rather than to achieve some aggregate national average number so we can pretend to be better than whatever nation and give ourselves an abject pat on the back.
    You can use your argument regarding history, science, geography, commerce, business studies, and even English. Think about it.

    eg: You think people analyse poems and discoveries in their life after they graduate from HSC? Let's let students choose what to study! And if they really need it, they can always pursue it later. Forcing them to study discoveries/journeys/critical analysis of texts when it's largely irrelevant to their lives is just wasting their time and resources. etc.

    What do you think? Don't you think that Calculus, and the study of maths in general, will teach more applicable skills than many of the other HSC subjects?

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    Taking a break! dan964's Avatar
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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy G Biv View Post
    You can use your argument regarding history, science, geography, commerce, business studies, and even English. Think about it.

    eg: You think people analyse poems and discoveries in their life after they graduate from HSC? Let's let students choose what to study! And if they really need it, they can always pursue it later. Forcing them to study discoveries/journeys/critical analysis of texts when it's largely irrelevant to their lives is just wasting their time and resources. etc.

    What do you think? Don't you think that Calculus, and the study of maths in general, will teach more applicable skills than many of the other HSC subjects?
    As someone who studies a maths degree at the moment, I can say that in general, it would really depend on the field of study.
    Most of what you study doesn't get used anyways.

    With regards to English being compulsory, language skills and proficiency in engaging in a particular language and being able to respond critically are useful skills.

    Even Mathematicians need to use English or some other language to present their arguments.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    I reckon its cause its not compulsory.

    I just started tutoring though with AM Tutoring College in Revesby.
    Its small class and the tutor is an actual maths teacher.
    My maths has really improved he's so good at explaining things. Plus he has heaps of resources.
    Definitely recommend him

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy G Biv View Post
    What do you think? Don't you think that Calculus, and the study of maths in general, will teach more applicable skills than many of the other HSC subjects?
    No.

    It's not that I think maths is useless (I'm studying a maths degree, and I would love it if everyone had enough appreciation for maths to understand calculus), but rather that high school school maths is not applicable (nor interesting) enough for most people to take something out of it. There are things that I would like people to understand better, like statistics (which everyone seems to dislike) and logic (which isn't even taught), but in order to become sufficiently proficient to understand the parts of maths that I consider to be valuable in people's lives, you have to invest a lot of time and sit through a lot of maths that 1. is often not taught well enough, and 2. you'll forget about a month after the HSC exam.

    Of course, I'm referring to the general population here. Obviously you should stick with maths if you're going into a STEM or a commerce degree, but that's still a very minute proportion of the population, and telling them that they should study calculus for a year or two is a huge time and resource investment for little to no return (for their lives and everyone else's).

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy G Biv View Post
    You can use your argument regarding history, science, geography, commerce, business studies, and even English. Think about it.

    eg: You think people analyse poems and discoveries in their life after they graduate from HSC? Let's let students choose what to study! And if they really need it, they can always pursue it later. Forcing them to study discoveries/journeys/critical analysis of texts when it's largely irrelevant to their lives is just wasting their time and resources. etc.
    You're not taking into account the proportions. My argument is that the vast majority of people won't be using high school maths, and therefore it's presumptuous to tell them to study it anyway because... calculus. (It should also be noted that most students coming out of HSC maths has the impression that calculus is about turning into 2x and x into x²/2, and that statistics is about summing then dividing.)

    For the non-English subjects you've mentioned, they are non-compulsory past year 8. So the students who choose those subjects are indeed far more likely to apply the skills taught in those subjects, than, suppose, the students who are forced to study maths all through high school.

    And for English, I genuinely think it should be compulsory. Setting aside the literary analysis aspect of the subject, English provides you with a shitload of opportunities to practice writing coherently and communicably, and to practice critically reading something and providing a structured argumentative exposition.

    On top of that, literary analysis is good, because most people enjoy watching movies and reading books, and knowing why you like something and being able to explain it to others enhances your experience of those things. And even if you aren't interested in that kind of thing, literary analysis provides you with the tools to recognise manipulative news articles when you see it.

    Of course, HSC English is a flawed subject; I think every assessment should be take-home essays instead, creative writing should be an elective, and there seems to be an emphasis on flair/sophistication over clarity, but whatever. I've made a sufficient case for why it should remain compulsory - everyone uses the skills they've picked up in English.

    And that's also precisely why I don't think maths should be compulsory. □
    Last edited by sida1049; 6 Apr 2018 at 2:34 PM.

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    because life


    of Pi

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    I read somewhere, some girl got 99.95 atar without doing any maths or sciences

    Chill dude, i do Ext1 and am dumb as a brick. Math in school is very formulaic, anyone can do it

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    Re: Why is everyone so trash at maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon_V3 View Post
    Why? Just Why?
    Mathematics is just logic.
    As far as you don't do 4U, it stays as logic.
    And yet 99% of Australia is trash at maths.
    I mean, what is so hard about it?
    I am almost about to lose hope in humanity because of this.
    I mean, most Asian countries mandate the equivalent of 2U Maths in High School.
    You cannot graduate high school without doing calculus in these countries.
    In here though, you can graduate without doing maths in Year 11 and 12, and even go to university!
    Literally 60% of Australians never learn Calculus.
    Only 2% of Japanese people don't do Calculus in high school, and these are the dropouts.
    Probably the same for China and Korea.
    WTF is wrong with Australians, Americans, Brits etc.
    It makes me sad to think that Australia is one of the worst countries when it comes to Maths...

    However, like another user pointed out if people aren't interested in it - they won't do it (especially if it doesn't tie in with their uni degree etc.)

    I think why most students don't do the Calculus courses (2U,3U and 4U) is because they have been taught that "it isn't practical" and you learn things like Functions, Coordinate Geometry - who can remember that one kid in the class saying "where am I ever going to use this?".

    Most kids in areas like Western Sydney will opt for General Maths - because its "practical" (I use that loosely). If students were to do Maths it would have to be practical - tax etc.

    Otherwise most kids will look over Maths and forget about it - sad ikr...

    Thankfully I chose 2U and 3U so I'm one of the few...

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