1. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by braintic
No that is not correct.

If a school with 5 students gets assessment marks in a particular subject of 80 79 78 77 76, and then get HSC marks (respectively) of 98 79 78 77 76, the effect of the 98 will be to lift the average of the whole group. So the assessments might become 84 83 82 81 80. The relative distribution of the assessment marks does NOT change. So in this (extremely oversimplified) process, your final mark would be the average of your exam mark of 98 and moderated assessment of 84. (Note: this is not how it works - the actual system is much more complicated - but it is MUCH closer to the mark than your explanation.)

There is not, and has NEVER been such a transference of marks in the HSC. However such a system did exist in the school certificate (in a different form) up to about 15 or so years ago.
This is wrong. According to your scenario, you've got first place raw = 80, first place exam = 98, and first place moderated assessment mark = 84. No. If first ranked gets 98 in their exam, and that is the highest exam mark, that student will definitely get 98 for their moderated assessment mark, their exam mark, and thus their final HSC mark will be 98, not the average of 98 and 84.

Your assessment marks are also wrong, even if I don't mathematically calculate it to the decimal. The first ranked person will get 98 for their assessment mark, and the last ranked person will get 76 for their assessment mark. First and last are pinned - they give the range of marks distribution. Then, BOS calculates the mean of the exam marks, and the mean of the raw marks, and aligns them together. Then, by a process of standard deviation from the mean, moderated assessment marks are generated.

2. Originally Posted by D94
This is wrong. According to your scenario, you've got first place raw = 80, first place exam = 98, and first place moderated assessment mark = 84. No. If first ranked gets 98 in their exam, and that is the highest exam mark, that student will definitely get 98 for their moderated assessment mark, their exam mark, and thus their final HSC mark.

Your assessment marks are also wrong, even if I don't mathematically calculate it to the decimal. The first ranked person will get 98 for their assessment mark, and the last ranked person will get 76 for their assessment mark. First and last are pinned - they give the range of marks distribution. Then, BOS calculates the mean of the exam marks, and the mean of the raw marks, and aligns them together. Then, by a process of standard deviation from the mean, moderated assessment marks are generated.
Thank you!

3. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by D94
This is wrong. According to your scenario, you've got first place raw = 80, first place exam = 98, and first place moderated assessment mark = 84. No. If first ranked gets 98 in their exam, and that is the highest exam mark, that student will definitely get 98 for their moderated assessment mark, their exam mark, and thus their final HSC mark will be 98, not the average of 98 and 84.

Your assessment marks are also wrong, even if I don't mathematically calculate it to the decimal. The first ranked person will get 98 for their assessment mark, and the last ranked person will get 76 for their assessment mark. First and last are pinned - they give the range of marks distribution. Then, BOS calculates the mean of the exam marks, and the mean of the raw marks, and aligns them together. Then, by a process of standard deviation from the mean, moderated assessment marks are generated.
I dont think thats true. They have a process to deal with outliers. You dont automatically get the top assessment mark if you come first or the bottom mark if you come last.
Say for example mx2 at ruse had 3 people and their unmoderated assessment marks are: A=80, B=79, C=78.
They did the HSC and their external aligned exam results are: A=100, C=99, B=1.
Does that mean that person C gets 1 for their internal? Nah Im pretty sure they do all the mathsy stuff first and dont 'pin' marks just because outliers can really mess thing up.

4. Originally Posted by Cl324
I dont think thats true. They have a process to deal with outliers. You dont automatically get the top assessment mark if you come first or the bottom mark if you come last.
Say for example mx2 at ruse had 3 people and their unmoderated assessment marks are: A=80, B=79, C=78.
They did the HSC and their external aligned exam results are: A=100, C=99, B=1.
Does that mean that person C gets 1 for their internal? Nah Im pretty sure they do all the mathsy stuff first and dont 'pin' marks just because outliers can really mess thing up.
But no.1 definitely gets first.

5. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by Cl324
I dont think thats true. They have a process to deal with outliers. You dont automatically get the top assessment mark if you come first or the bottom mark if you come last.
Say for example mx2 at ruse had 3 people and their unmoderated assessment marks are: A=80, B=79, C=78.
They did the HSC and their external aligned exam results are: A=100, C=99, B=1.
Does that mean that person C gets 1 for their internal? Nah Im pretty sure they do all the mathsy stuff first and dont 'pin' marks just because outliers can really mess thing up.
Well, obviously taking into account outliers. But the example that braintic gave, there weren't any outliers, so I just used that example for my explanation. When I say "first and last", it means for those applicable to be ranked in a group.

However, first will definitely get the highest exam mark as their assessment mark, no matter how outlier-ish they are.

In your case, they take out person B and so Person A and C will get 100 and 99 respectively for their HSC marks. Person B will be taken out, and probably be given the average of 1 and the mark calculated by deviating their position from the mean.

6. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Yeah I totally get what you mean though. Just pointing out that moderation is different for outliers

7. I maintain that ranking is more important.

8. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by braintic
OK, I've done a little reading, and it confirms that I am not correct regarding the top mark.

However the other point I was making about scaling was confirmed as correct (from a BOS document).
Quoting from the document: "Provided the shapes of the distributions of the school assessments and the examination marks are roughly the same, the relative differences (or gaps) between the students’ moderated assessments will be approximately the same as between their school assessments."
In other words, it is not the ranks per se that are important, but the differences between the raw assessment marks of students with consecutive ranks.
So, to take an extreme example, say the top person in your year gets a school assessment of 90, the next 47 people are tied on 85, you are ranked 49th with 84, and the 50th and final person has a mark of 50.
Your assessment will be moderated to just under the moderated assessment mark of those who scored 85, and way ahead of the person who scored 50.
You don't get massively penalized because your rank is 49/50 - it is the relative marks that matter.

I know most of you realise this already, but my aim was to counter the the claim that "ranks are more important than marks". Unfortunately I allowed myself to be sidetracked by a special case where I turned out to be incorrect. But most people don't come first in their school, and the claim I was trying to argue against is generally incorrect.
Well, if you're near the top, your gap might be might be considerable but your mark still won't be a huge difference.

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10. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Marks are important as they determine the rank and the relative gaps between the ranks. These ranks and relative gaps are then used to determine the moderated internal assessment mark.

Therefore internal marks are important as a poor internal mark will, in most cases, result in a poor internal rank or a smaller than it should be relative gap - affecting the final assessment marks.

11. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by theycallmebob
I maintain that ranking is more important.
+1.
Ranking plus the gap between you and first place.
Hence, why it is crucial to help your cohort during the HSC as it could ultimately push you up. (Assuming you are not 1st both internally and externally or last, unfortunately for both).

Since generally school rankings reflect this gap..
It in effect, it will effect te calculation of your atar

12. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

school ranking is super important and it affects your HSC mark ALOT, as a 2011 HSC student, i have ALREADY personally experienced the effects of school rankings, my school previously ranked mid 30s now ranking mid 20s, i compared my trial mark, my internal and school rankings along with other students from other schools, and I realised, correspondingly those who are in schools with higher school rankings are getting better mark than me, and those with lower school rankings are getting lower mark, the school ranking readjusts their internal marks, they varies ENORMOUSLY despite having similar HSC mark. So, get into a good school like mine and your HSC mark will shine.

13. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

The ranking of your school in 2011 will not affect how a student goes in 2012. They will re-rank the schools AFTER the 2012 HSC based on the results of the 2012 cohort.

14. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

So if someone gets an internal report mark (which is a scaled mark) of say 75 in English ranked 25/100 in a school ranked 88, will that mean that 75 is moderted up, to say 85 as a final BOS mark?

15. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

It doesn't. Work hard and you will achieve. Worry and you will fail.

16. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by BlueBerrySun
It doesn't. Work hard and you will achieve. Worry and you will fail.
^^^^
cannot restate this enough

18. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

I think going to a high ranked school is like insurance. If we were to compare let's say a person ranked in the top 10 in MX2 in Baulko to a person ranked 1st in a 300/400 schools although they may have the same capacity to achieve the same external mark as the person from James Ruse if they end up stuffing up in the hsc exam there's usually nobody to carry their internals. However, if the Baulko student stuffs up since they are ranked quite favourably at a strong school their internal mark is guaranteed to be quite high.

19. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Basically, if you can manage to somewhat keep up with the top 50% of the cohort in a top 10 school. You are all good.

20. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

This thread has kind of confused me a little bit lol everyone is kind of saying different things. At the end of the day, does rank affect your marks? And no, I don't mean Ruse vs some 300 school lol my school is like 600. Every year there are a few people in the cohort with potential for B5s and 6s and around a handful will get an ATAR above 70.
E.g, last year there was a student who got 3 B6s and 2 B5s and her ATAR was 86, does that sound right? Like if someone at a better school got those marks is that an accurate ATAR estimate? Obviously I know it changes every year cos it's a rank blah blah but just humour me.

21. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by mcchicken
This thread has kind of confused me a little bit lol everyone is kind of saying different things. At the end of the day, does rank affect your marks? And no, I don't mean Ruse vs some 300 school lol my school is like 600. Every year there are a few people in the cohort with potential for B5s and 6s and around a handful will get an ATAR above 70.
E.g, last year there was a student who got 3 B6s and 2 B5s and her ATAR was 86, does that sound right? Like if someone at a better school got those marks is that an accurate ATAR estimate? Obviously I know it changes every year cos it's a rank blah blah but just humour me.
I believe that the BOSTES website states that the performance of your cohort may have an effect on your examination marks.

Since each school has varying relative difficulties in internal assessments, BOSTES has the system of "moderation" where all schools can be compared through a standardised test (HSC exams). When determining your atar regarding the internal component, they take into account your ranking for a particular subject amongst your class, and the relative mark differences between them. They then take the aggregate of your cohort's internal marks which can be compared to the performance of your class in the exams.

For example, if the aggregate of your class' internal assessments are 400/500, however they score only 300/500 in the hsc examinations, they take this into account as this indicates that your internal assessments were "easier" than the actual examination. It states on the BOSTES website that your marks are "adjusted accordingly"; they do not provide detail on how exactly this may influence your marks.

In the exam, if your cohort does poorly, your examination marks may correspondingly be dragged down. However, it states that they have "safeguards" in place so that they are somewhat protected from outliers. For example, if some students in your class perform way lower than the class average, they will not be taken into account when adjusting your marks. Also, if you are ranked first or last, the performance of your cohort will not affect your overall marks.

Thus, if you go to a rank 600 school, assuming that your year isn't particularly "special" and will perform somewhat the same, it's important to maintain a high rank for all your subjects.

In short, your marks will most likely be affected by your cohort.

22. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Thanks! My year is not the brightest bunch, what you call "low-performing outliers" I pretty much consider 50% of my cohort haha. I'm ranked 1st in everything besides Adv and CAFS, both of which I'm just a few marks behind first and then there's a large gap between myself and the rest of the class. Do you think this will have a massive affect on my marks?

23. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by mcchicken
Thanks! My year is not the brightest bunch, what you call "low-performing outliers" I pretty much consider 50% of my cohort haha. I'm ranked 1st in everything besides Adv and CAFS, both of which I'm just a few marks behind first and then there's a large gap between myself and the rest of the class. Do you think this will have a massive affect on my marks?
Depends on the performance of you, and the person ranked first in the HSC exam.

24. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

What happens if there is like a 5-6 mark difference in the internal ranks of 1st and 2nd, and 3rd was close to second, but everyone below that did had a big difference. But in the HSC 1st, 2nd and 3rd all were very close and there was a big difference in the others. Would 2nd and 3rd still be dragged down since in internal ranks there was a big difference.

25. ## Re: How do rankings of schools affect your HSC mark?

Originally Posted by Ace0804
What happens if there is like a 5-6 mark difference in the internal ranks of 1st and 2nd, and 3rd was close to second, but everyone below that did had a big difference. But in the HSC 1st, 2nd and 3rd all were very close and there was a big difference in the others. Would 2nd and 3rd still be dragged down since in internal ranks there was a big difference.
2nd and 3rd will end up with similar assessment marks.

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