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    Cadet PacifistWarrior's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kokeshi
    free will's an absolute. you can't have any in-betweens.

    If God is omnipotent then He should be able to create a world with free will and no evil. Although having free will means there is the possibility of people doing evil, why should this ever have to happen? Why couldn't we all have free will but always decide not to commit evil?

    And besides, this doesn't explain natural evil such as volcanoes and floods. Couldn't God make a world without these?

    And if God could have stopped large scale disasters like WW2 or the AIDS epidemic, why didn't He?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A different type of question -

    What makes an action right or wrong? If we can't say why a thing is wrong, what reason do we have to stop it?
    ** My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. - Ashleigh Brilliant**

    **This sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't. - Doug Hofstadter**

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    Ain't love grand. mei_ling03's Avatar
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    God did not create evil in the world, but merely allowed it. He gave us the choice between good and evil. as for this choice between two goods - that's not really choice - cos either way you choose good - like a coin with two heads.

    Originally posted by PacifistWarrior
    If God is omnipotent then He should be able to create a world with free will and no evil. Although having free will means there is the possibility of people doing evil, why should this ever have to happen? Why couldn't we all have free will but always decide not to commit evil?

    And besides, this doesn't explain natural evil such as volcanoes and floods. Couldn't God make a world without these?

    And if God could have stopped large scale disasters like WW2 or the AIDS epidemic, why didn't He?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A different type of question -

    What makes an action right or wrong? If we can't say why a thing is wrong, what reason do we have to stop it?
    you last question is a vexed one, with no easy answer.. that's really just a question of morals. the most important thing you have to consider then is what creates the need for morals - stability.

    God did create a perfect world. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit then were cast out of Eden and surrounded with all the epidemics, volcanoes, whatever...

    all this talk about "can God create a wall so high he can't climb over it?" is just silly. I'm sorry not regurgitating everything that you people learn in philosophy cos i'm still not convinved that God is either not omnipresent or omnipotent. The reason why i refuse to answer such questions is because such questions are simply rotational - a mere play with language. it's funny, i was just having this argument yesterday. "what came first: the chicken or the egg?" a nice example of this rotational language - the answer cannot be presented in a mere yes or no. it's a question that requires much more knowledge and is not such a clean cut. for the chicken example - the answer is neither. rather, the question may be answered with the concept of evolution. so without the knowledge, something that i doubt we will ever have about God, the question cannot be answered.
    Last edited by mei_ling03; 10 Nov 2003 at 2:33 PM.
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    Cadet PacifistWarrior's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mei_ling03

    God did create a perfect world. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit then were cast out of Eden and surrounded with all the epidemics, volcanoes, whatever...

    If you believe that, then you have your answer. But surely that only works for Jews and Christians? Are there other religions which believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God? If so, how do they explain natural evil?

    Also, you didn't answer all my questions. Ok, say God does allow evil because of choice, why doesn't He intervene in the large scale disasters (see my previous post)? He can still intervene and leave us with choice.

    What about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? It holds that the more precisely the position of a subatomic particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa. Surely this means that God can't be omniscient?

    Here are a few questions for you -
    Is it ever right to steal?

    If murdering one person would save the lives of many others, should that person be murdered? If that person was completely innocent? E.g. kill a baby to stop all world disease.

    Why help other people?
    ** My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. - Ashleigh Brilliant**

    **This sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't. - Doug Hofstadter**

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    Ain't love grand. mei_ling03's Avatar
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    1. If you believe that, then you have your answer. But surely that only works for Jews and Christians? Are there other religions which believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God? If so, how do they explain natural evil?

    How other religions explain the presence of natural evil is irrelevant. Unless we all came from alternate existences there may be only one way..

    2. Also, you didn't answer all my questions. Ok, say God does allow evil because of choice, why doesn't He intervene in the large scale disasters (see my previous post)? He can still intervene and leave us with choice.

    that is true, sorry if i hadn't properly answered your question. in summary, natural disasters are a result of our free choice. i know this sounds weird.. an explanation of this lies in Genesis of the Bible.
    my general philosophy in life is that it is a test and disasters may be seen as one of these 'obstacles'. i don't expect everyone to agree with me but this is just my point of view..

    3. Is it ever right to steal?

    if the world was so black and white, we would have figured it out by now. i'm not in the position to decide what is right or wrong. instead, we must consider what is the most right in the situation, or at least which action (i.e. to steal or not to steal) contributes better to the overall stability of society.

    4. If murdering one person would save the lives of many others, should that person be murdered? If that person was completely innocent? E.g. kill a baby to stop all world disease.

    what gives us the right to decide the value of a person based on sheer number of population? one of the fundamental flaws of society is this preoccupation with volume. of course, we may think that it is right to make what is apparently a small sacrifice, but funnily enough you could say to everyone with disease to make this 'smalll sacrifice' of themselves and disease would be eradicated! (i know there's environmental diseases, etc etc but do you get my point? )

    5. Why help other people?

    treat others like you would want to be unto you. if everyone followed this principle, the world would be a better place.

    6. What about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? It holds that the more precisely the position of a subatomic particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa. Surely this means that God can't be omniscient?

    lol ask me next year and maybe i'll be able to answer you. is there a simpler explanation of this principle?
    Last edited by mei_ling03; 11 Nov 2003 at 8:19 PM.
    B Psychology @ UNSW: 3rd year. i'm getting old :mad1:

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    Junior Member snobby airlines's Avatar
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    If you believe that, then you have your answer. But surely that only works for Jews and Christians? Are there other religions which believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God? If so, how do they explain natural evil?
    Yeah Islaam does.
    Thought i'd paste this:

    If God is considered to be the ultimate Cause of all things, then should He not be the Cause also of evil? And, why should anyone be blamed for evil, if it was created by God in the first place?

    Bad and evil are defects in goodness using the analogy of shadow created by blocking light. If the light had not been interrupted or blocked there would be no shadow. Thus, if the truth, which is good, is not blocked there will be no room for lies (which are bad) to exist. God is absolutely Good, and also good is the limited free_will He has given us. Freewill implies choice between bad and good, and responsibility, which is also good. If there is no choice to do bad, then there is no real free will. Therefore, free will implies the necessity of existence of bad.

    Life is all a test. And who are we to know what God has planned, He has great wisdom whereas us humans are only capable of comprehending so much.
    It doesn't just work for Jews/Muslims/Christians...its works for all people who know that there is a Divine power.
    Everything happens for a reason my friend, no matter how absurd it may look or seem...

    anyway peace out

  6. #31
    sei
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    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    God did create a perfect world. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit then were cast out of Eden and surrounded with all the epidemics, volcanoes, whatever...
    You cannot have a God that is omniscient and simultaneously gives humans free will.
    Why? Because God can write down a set of true statements about what will happen in your life (as he is all-knowing/omniscient he can do this). It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to deviate from these statements (otherwise God would not be omniscient). Since it is impossible to deviate from these statements, life is predetermined (and therefore you do not have the free will that you think or feel that you do).
    The only solution to this predicament is to either concede that life is predetermined and that we have no free will, or place limits on God's omniscience (which would contradict the Bible's assertions that God is omniscient).

    Originally posted by PacifistWarrior
    If you believe that, then you have your answer. But surely that only works for Jews and Christians? Are there other religions which believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God? If so, how do they explain natural evil?
    God cannot be both omnipotent and wholly good anyway even in the Jewish or Christian religions, because evil exists in our world.
    If you try to counter by saying that good cannot exist without evil, then why does there have to be evil? This sets a limit on what God can do -saying that God cannot create good without simultaneously creating evil, and this means that God is not omnipotent or that there are some limits to what an omnipotent thing can do, or that God is not wholly good.
    If you say that evil is a necessary means to good, then that would mean that there was a causal law that you cannot have a certain end without a certain means, so that if God has to introduce evil as a means to good, he must be subject to at least some causal laws. This certainly conflicts with God being omnipotent.
    If you say that evil is due to human freewill, then you are also saying that a wholly good God gave humans freewill although it would lead to some important evils, so that on the whole it would be better that humans should act freely and sometimes commit evil than being innocent robotic-like humans acting rightly in a wholly determined way. If God has made men such that in their free choices they sometimes prefer what is good and sometimes what is evil, why could he not have made men such that they always freely choose the good?
    God was not faced with making a choice between making innocent robot-like humans and making beings who in acting freely would sometimes commit evil -there was always open to him the option of making beings who would act freely but always go right. Clearly, God's failure to avail himself of this possibility is inconsistent with his being both omnipotent and wholly good.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by PacifistWarrior
    [B]Ok, say God does allow evil because of choice, why doesn't He intervene in the large scale disasters (see my previous post)? He can still intervene and leave us with choice.
    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    in summary, natural disasters are a result of our free choice. i know this sounds weird.. an explanation of this lies in Genesis of the Bible.
    my general philosophy in life is that it is a test and disasters may be seen as one of these 'obstacles'. i don't expect everyone to agree with me but this is just my point of view..
    I have already shown in my first argument that you cannot have a God who is both omniscient and gives humans free will.
    Further to that, who is the test for? Us? God?
    Surely it cannot be for God for he is omniscient and would know the result of the test before he conducted it.
    And if it is a test for us humans, then why do innocent people appear to be killed by such natural disasters? If you believe in an omnipotent and wholly good God, then God would intervene (as it is not borne out of our actual human free will that those natural disasters occur -we had no choice in it whatsoever), so you are implying that by giving us free will God is binding himself also in that he cannot interefere in our world or chooses not to interfere in our world, hence you are placing limits on his omnipotence or the extent to which he is wholly good.
    Now or Never

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    Ain't love grand. mei_ling03's Avatar
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    Originally posted by natstar
    what kinda of careers whould philosophy lead too? Being a philosopher ????? Mm Sounds interesting.
    no idea but it sounds like fun to do at uni
    B Psychology @ UNSW: 3rd year. i'm getting old :mad1:

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    Ain't love grand. mei_ling03's Avatar
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    1. [B] You cannot have a God that is omniscient and simultaneously gives humans free will.
    Why? Because God can write down a set of true statements about what will happen in your life (as he is all-knowing/omniscient he can do this). It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to deviate from these statements (otherwise God would not be omniscient). Since it is impossible to deviate from these statements, life is predetermined (and therefore you do not have the free will that you think or feel that you do).
    The only solution to this predicament is to either concede that life is predetermined and that we have no free will, or place limits on God's omniscience (which would contradict the Bible's assertions that God is omniscient). [B][/]

    God CAN write down a set of statements that predetermine our lives but does not as this would clearly contradict the gift of free will to humans. the fact that he CAN intervene does not prove anything. It is, however, known that God does know the path that we will take - a path that we ourselves will choose - he does not himself write our lives, only decides at the end whether we have passed the test of life and if we should pass the pearly gates... the only thing here that i feel could be argued is that we have already determined our own paths and are moving through it, even though we don't know it..

    2. [B] God cannot be both omnipotent and wholly good anyway even in the Jewish or Christian religions, because evil exists in our world.
    If you try to counter by saying that good cannot exist without evil, then why does there have to be evil? This sets a limit on what God can do -saying that God cannot create good without simultaneously creating evil, and this means that God is not omnipotent or that there are some limits to what an omnipotent thing can do, or that God is not wholly good.
    If you say that evil is a necessary means to good, then that would mean that there was a causal law that you cannot have a certain end without a certain means, so that if God has to introduce evil as a means to good, he must be subject to at least some causal laws. This certainly conflicts with God being omnipotent.
    If you say that evil is due to human freewill, then you are also saying that a wholly good God gave humans freewill although it would lead to some important evils, so that on the whole it would be better that humans should act freely and sometimes commit evil than being innocent robotic-like humans acting rightly in a wholly determined way. If God has made men such that in their free choices they sometimes prefer what is good and sometimes what is evil, why could he not have made men such that they always freely choose the good?
    God was not faced with making a choice between making innocent robot-like humans and making beings who in acting freely would sometimes commit evil -there was always open to him the option of making beings who would act freely but always go right. Clearly, God's failure to avail himself of this possibility is inconsistent with his being both omnipotent and wholly good. [B][/]

    this brings us back to the story of Lucifer after the war in Heaven when he was cast out. God said to him that He has created the world and the population of men and that during man's existence on earth, he may try to sway these men (men = humankind) into doing evil. God COULD have given man the choice of only two goods (which still doesn't make too much sense to me) but has instead given us the choice between good and evil. as for the argument that God has been subjected to some 'causal law', therefore disproving his omnipotence - can not the driving force come from within himself rather than being an external force?

    3. [B] I have already shown in my first argument that you cannot have a God who is both omniscient and gives humans free will.
    Further to that, who is the test for? Us? God?
    Surely it cannot be for God for he is omniscient and would know the result of the test before he conducted it.
    And if it is a test for us humans, then why do innocent people appear to be killed by such natural disasters? If you believe in an omnipotent and wholly good God, then God would intervene (as it is not borne out of our actual human free will that those natural disasters occur -we had no choice in it whatsoever), so you are implying that by giving us free will God is binding himself also in that he cannot interefere in our world or chooses not to interfere in our world, hence you are placing limits on his omnipotence or the extent to which he is wholly good. [B][/]

    the test is not for God but for us. it is a test that decides whether we are worthy to be accepted in Heaven or not. of course God knows whether we will or will not. we are merely living out the paths that we will have carved out for ourselves. he knows our choices yet does not intervene.
    God has never binded himself from interfering with natural disasters, rather, he refrains from it. the last time God had interfered was Noah's Ark. also you have to remember that with such 'disasters' also come new life. i won't even try to explain why some people die and some don't. Those are decisions that are to be left only to God.

    i'm sure, this has been heard a million times before but i will say it again: if God is to be almighty, righteous, etc.. who are we to try to comprehend Him, to summarise his power and choices in a paragraph? The only way that would be possible would be to disprove his existence - somethinbg that may never be done. the only thing you do is limit yourself.
    B Psychology @ UNSW: 3rd year. i'm getting old :mad1:

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    Ain't love grand. mei_ling03's Avatar
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    eek i don't know html codes!
    B Psychology @ UNSW: 3rd year. i'm getting old :mad1:

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    Junior Member snobby airlines's Avatar
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    if God is to be almighty, righteous, etc.. who are we to try to comprehend Him, to summarise his power and choices in a paragraph? The only way that would be possible would be to disprove his existence - somethinbg that may never be done. the only thing you do is limit yourself.
    yes well said mei ling.

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    sei
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    mei ling, you need to read my response, and your own, a few times before you post, because you contradicted yourself. Look:
    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    God CAN write down a set of statements that predetermine our lives but does not as this would clearly contradict the gift of free will to humans. the fact that he CAN intervene does not prove anything.
    How on earth do you know he doesn't write down these statements? Are you omniscient? Are you implying (even though you said he can) that he really CAN'T write them down and is bound by his decisions? Because the point is that he CAN and that proves that life is predetermined if you believe in an omniscient God (you are not understanding this are you? Your argument that he doesn't write it down therefore we have free will is irrelevant). The fact that he CAN (ie there is the possibility, which you agree to), shows that our life is already mapped out, and there is NO way we can deviate from it whatsoever, otherwise God would be wrong or not omniscient. If we cannot deviate from this plan in ANY way please tell me in what way do we have any free will at all, and not just 'feel like' we have free will.

    Think about it some more -if God wrote that list (which he CAN), he could post it down here on earth somewhere, even somewhere you could read. You could not do ANYTHING at all to deviate from this list, even if you tried to go against it, you couldn't (otherwise God would be wrong or not omniscient). Doesn't this show you that we have no free will if we have an omniscient God? (Since you have already conceded that he CAN write such a list).

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    It is, however, known that God does know the path that we will take - a path that we ourselves will choose - he does not himself write our lives, only decides at the end whether we have passed the test of life and if we should pass the pearly gates... the only thing here that i feel could be argued is that we have already determined our own paths and are moving through it, even though we don't know it..
    no offence but again you are missing my point. If God KNOWS the path we will take, then WE cannot choose it obviously -it would simply FEEL like we were choosing it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to deviate from what God KNOWS will happen in our lives, and if it is impossible to make a choice free from what God knows we will do, how can you say we have free will?
    I'll keep going with this, but just try to read it a few times, as the argument I'm putting forward (i think) is pretty clear, and it doesn't seem like you're not understanding it.

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    this brings us back to the story of Lucifer after the war in Heaven when he was cast out. God said to him that He has created the world and the population of men and that during man's existence on earth, he may try to sway these men (men = humankind) into doing evil. God COULD have given man the choice of only two goods (which still doesn't make too much sense to me) but has instead given us the choice between good and evil.
    Did you even read my post? The above (from you) clearly shows that you are implying that God is either NOT omnipotent (all powerful) or not wholly good as He either:
    1.Had to give the Devil power (which challenges God's omnipotence), or
    2.Chose to give the Devil power (which challenges God being wholly good).
    And further to that, you wrote that God gave us the choice between evil and good, not two goods -this has been written plenty of times, at least add something to it. How about explaining WHY evil HAS to exist? And WHY God made evil exist? I already wrote all those counters against why people typically say God allowed evil to exist or created evil. Have a read of them, and tell me WHY God made evil exist when he didn't have to.

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    as for the argument that God has been subjected to some 'causal law', therefore disproving his omnipotence - can not the driving force come from within himself rather than being an external force?
    There was no argument as such that God has been subjected to some causal law, it was a counter -ie in case someone was going to say that evil was a means to good.
    What do you mean by driving force coming from within him rather than an external force? Can you clarify that thanks.

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    the test is not for God but for us. it is a test that decides whether we are worthy to be accepted in Heaven or not. of course God knows whether we will or will not. we are merely living out the paths that we will have carved out for ourselves. he knows our choices yet does not intervene.
    First off, if God knows all this from before, you are saying that he knows some people will be condemned to hell for a committing a certain amount of evil (which he created) acts, and yet these people are still allowed to live out their life, and then go off to Hell, whilst others go to Heaven? How does this show a wholly good God? Doesn't God love everyone equally? If so, why does there have to be hell. Surely we are all his creation anyway, and evil is something He created, so why would some people be subjected to endless torture in hell due to this -wouldn't a wholly good and omnipotent God use his powers to either
    1. Save the person from going to hell (otherwise not wholly good),
    or
    2. Not have created hell in the first place (as it places limits on his omnipotence if he HAD to create evil, and HAD to create hell -an omnipotent God never has to do anything -it is all His choosing).

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    God has never binded himself from interfering with natural disasters, rather, he refrains from it. the last time God had interfered was Noah's Ark. also you have to remember that with such 'disasters' also come new life. i won't even try to explain why some people die and some don't. Those are decisions that are to be left only to God.
    OK so you are implying that he is not wholly good then. If he has the power to intervene in natural disasters (as you said he did), yet CHOOSES not too, he cannot be a wholly good being. Think about it.
    The 'new life' argument from a natural disaster is pretty poor -it seems like you're grabbing at straws to try to justify such a disaster of mass-scale and show that some good comes out of it when God does not intervene. I don't think it's very comforting knowing that a few organisms ("new life") may grow out of the wreck caused by a natural disaster that killed hundreds or thousands of people. The 'new life' argument also proposes that life after the disaster is better than life before (otherwise why would an all-powerful, wholly good God allow it?). I'm sure the families of the thousands who died would disagree that life is better after it (and it is clearly an event that an all-powerful and wholly good being could and would have prevented).

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    i'm sure, this has been heard a million times before but i will say it again: if God is to be almighty, righteous, etc.. who are we to try to comprehend Him, to summarise his power and choices in a paragraph? The only way that would be possible would be to disprove his existence - somethinbg that may never be done. the only thing you do is limit yourself.
    Yeh, that's been said a million times, often by people who can't/won't argue about God, or who may have a poor understanding of Him.
    Who are WE to try to comprehend him? Presumably WE are his people mei ling, who He created. Christians are meant to be in a loving bond with God, and to love him intimately. I'm sure you would like to have knowledge about the being who you believe is responsible ultimately for your life, a being that you not only love intimately, but trust wholly, through your faith.

    And would you mind explaining what exactly we are limiting on ourselves by trying to seek a fuller understanding of God?

    Originally posted by natstar
    what kinda of careers whould philosophy lead too? Being a philosopher ????? Mm Sounds interesting.
    The majority of philosophy jobs are in academia -professors, lecturers etc. Some philosophers, however, manage to make it in the private sector as consultants (they'd be great for lateral thinking I'd assume!), and make a lot of money. But there are few
    people who manage that. I think most philosophy students at uni just take it cos it feels mind-expanding and interesting!
    Last edited by sei; 12 Nov 2003 at 3:28 PM.
    Now or Never

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    Ain't love grand. mei_ling03's Avatar
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    wow now this is the response i've been looking for! perhaps i'll read it closely later... (so long)... i'm really only here to put a challenge to people here. so people, keep em coming. philosophy sounds like fun

    what are your study topics?
    B Psychology @ UNSW: 3rd year. i'm getting old :mad1:

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    The Perfect Nerd McLake's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    what are your study topics?
    Who is this directed to?


    No Longer Around


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    Executive Member lengstar's Avatar
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    God is like aether, his existence is irrelevant.

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    I leave this topic alone for just a few days, because it was going pretty slow, I come back and find a lot has happened. I am glad sei has taken up my stance, I am not very good at arguing the points. Besides, I was really just trying to provoke other people to discuss it, so that I wouldn't have to keep responding to everything. It worked! Well done to sei and mei ling and the others who have contributed!
    ** My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. - Ashleigh Brilliant**

    **This sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't. - Doug Hofstadter**

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    Executive Member lengstar's Avatar
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    here's a question:

    if a person has never heard of the word of God, yet continues to live a campassionate and benevalent lifestyle and helps other people, is he more deserving that a criminal who believes in God, yet still commits crimes only to pray for forgiveness of his sins?

    and what of people who have no respect for other people, who think those that do not believe in God don't deserve to go to heaven, yet there are people who don't people in God and are much better people than those that do? who is more deserving? the stuck up elitist bitch or the humble person?

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    sei
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    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    wow now this is the response i've been looking for! perhaps i'll read it closely later...
    yeh, do you think you could please?
    I didn't just write it for fun, but also to incite debate - where is everyone's responses to what i wrote?

    Originally posted by mei_ling03
    what are your study topics?
    we study free will, determinism, God and evil, foreknowledge and fatalism, meaning of life, death, personal identity, truth, evidence, 'what is knowledge?', empiricism, idealism, causality, rationalism other minds scepticism, external worlds scepticism, moral knowledge.. all in one semester

    Originally posted by lengstar
    God is like aether, his existence is irrelevant.
    could you explain this? (is this about special relativity?)
    Now or Never

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    Saddam's new life freaking_out's Avatar
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    faar, u ppl write too much....no way, i would wanna do philosophy.
    B Engineering/B Science @ USYD

    "Don't worry, there's always tafe''

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    I believe the fundemental question is...why? i mean, one day, we may find out 'what' exactly the universe is, 'when' it came into existence, 'where' (it is irrelevant), we even may find out 'how' (scientific- a quantum fluctuation, religious- God created the Universe)...but i feel, we will never find out 'why'. Why was the Universe created???
    As Stephen Hawking once said: "We will never know the mind of God."
    Monash Med II

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    Philosophy is good for drunken ramblings :/
    Last edited by Overshoot; 15 Nov 2003 at 12:49 AM.

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    The debate about existence and/or characterisation of God is not a relevent topic. 'God' is simply a concept present in all human being's minds - it is fundamentally one's inner courage.

    Some people believe in themselves. Others choose to personify this 'inner courage' and name it "God". As humans are inherently social creatures, it is easier to believe that our courage is a separate entity - a friend who will never leave us alone.

    The other concept of God is the one that "created man". Humans, as naturally inquisitive creatures, cannot deal with uncertainty and unanswered questions. some people choose to represent all their unanswered questions as 'God'.

    The plight to unify religion is painfully illogical, wrong, and fails to consider what God fundamentally is. It is every individual's own heart and mind.
    Class of 2003

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    Executive Member lengstar's Avatar
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    and what of people who disregard the concept of God?

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    Saddam's new life freaking_out's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Overshoot
    Philosophy is good for drunken ramblings :/
    agree... i mean, alot of it is just baseless speculation.
    B Engineering/B Science @ USYD

    "Don't worry, there's always tafe''

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    eh? people who disregard the concept of God are not really diregarding the fundamental concept of God (inner courage). What they are disregarding is the mutated concept created by religion.

    Religion is really just 'good advice' given to people on what's 'wrong' and 'right' in life. It is for people who need guidance and feel unsure about finding their own inner definition of self-worth.

    However, what's 'wrong' and 'right' in life is obviously dependant on individual belief and social context. The proof is in the many 'revised' editions of the bible - advice must be changed to fit the changed 'moral standards'.

    Anyway, the church was once used to control. The concept of God was, and has, been mutated. People now believe God is an external force of power or control.

    This is the mutated concept that some people are really disregarding - believing in God should not be like living life by a law, which is what religion seems to impose 'God' as - a law. It's not - it's just advice for people to take, and in the end people need to believe in themselves.

    Believing in God is an indirect way of believing in oneself. People who disregard it don't like the binding concept of religion, but their God resides in their inner source of self worth, courage, etc. I mean my source of courage or whatever comes from speaking to my stuffed toy-friend-dude. Others get it from their invisible friend, or themselves.
    Class of 2003

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    I mean, if I asked a person - "What is God?", the first thing that pops into mind is the image of some holy dude who has heaps of power. That's an image created by religion.

    The stories of God, etc were for the same purpose as "Little Red Riding Hood" - to teach little kids the moral of the story, not as a history lesson or a worshiping thing!
    Class of 2003

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