UNSW mathematics competition (1 Viewer)

Mark576

Feel good ...
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
515
Gender
Male
HSC
2008
This is a practice question from the senior paper:

What is the value of the infinite square root:

root ((((1 + root (((1 + root ((1 + root (1 + ...))))

Any help would be appreciated in solving this problem.

P.S Sorry about the setting out of the problem, but hopefully you get the idea, if not here's a link:

http://www.maths.unsw.edu.au/highschool/teacher/teacherproblems.html (It's the second last problem)
 

m.jakaran

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
111
Gender
Male
HSC
2010
Because it is a repeated root, denote it by x and then place the x inside as the series is infinate. You should then gain a simple quadratic equation.
 

Trebla

Administrator
Administrator
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
8,392
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
For the quadratic solution, we take the positive root because clearly phi is positive with the square roots of positive numbers.
 

3unitz

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
161
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
the problem with this proof is that it assumes root ((((1 + root (((1 + root ((1 + root (1 + ...)))) converges to a finite number phi. for example, how do we know it doesnt shoot off to infinity instead?

allow me to illustrate my point by considering a similar "repetition":

((( (...) - 1)^2 - 1)^2 - 1)^2

we could define this as the limit of the sequence an with the following recursion formulae:

a0 = 0

an+1 = (an - 1)^2

if we assume this sequence has a finite limit L then by limit laws:

L = (L - 1)^2

which implies:

L = [3 +/- root(5)] / 2

L ~ 2.618, L ~ 0.382

this is nonsense. if instead we look at each iteration, we observe that the sequence oscillates between 0 and 1 and does not converge:

a0 = 0

a1 = 1

a2 = 0
.
.
.

this example shows that its possible to obtain an incorrect limit just by simply assuming the sequence converges. returning back to the infinite square root problem, we must first be sure that it does indeed have a finite limit before we try to manipulate any limit algebra.

to do this we have to prove 2 points:

(a) that the sequence is monotonically increasing (an+1 > an for all n) and thus cannot oscillate.

(b) that there is a constant number bigger than any value of the sequence for all n (like an asymptote which "blocks" the sequence from diverging to infinity)

if we can show that (a) and (b) are true, we have effectively shown the sequence must converge to a finite limit.

define the infinite square root as the limit of the sequence an with the following recursion formulae:

a0 = 0

an+1 = root(1 + an) --------(1)

by inspection: an < an+1 ((a) is true)

rearranging (1) for an and subbing into this inequality yields:

an+1^2 - 1 < an+1

an+1^2 - an+1 - 1 < 0

this implies an+1 < [1 + root(5)]/2 (using the quadratic equation)

an < an+1 < [1 + root(5)]/2

(b) is true as the sequence is always less than the constant [1 + root(5)]/2

therefore, the sequence must converge to some finite number, phi, and we can only now apply limit laws:

phi = root(1 + phi)

phi = [1 + root(5)]/2
 

HalcyonSky

Active Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,187
Gender
Male
HSC
2013
the problem with this proof is that it assumes root ((((1 + root (((1 + root ((1 + root (1 + ...)))) converges to a finite number phi. for example, how do we know it doesnt shoot off to infinity instead?

allow me to illustrate my point by considering a similar "repetition":

((( (...) - 1)^2 - 1)^2 - 1)^2

we could define this as the limit of the sequence an with the following recursion formulae:

a0 = 0

an+1 = (an - 1)^2

if we assume this sequence has a finite limit L then by limit laws:

L = (L - 1)^2

which implies:

L = [3 +/- root(5)] / 2

L ~ 2.618, L ~ 0.382

this is nonsense. if instead we look at each iteration, we observe that the sequence oscillates between 0 and 1 and does not converge:

a0 = 0

a1 = 1

a2 = 0
.
.
.

this example shows that its possible to obtain an incorrect limit just by simply assuming the sequence converges. returning back to the infinite square root problem, we must first be sure that it does indeed have a finite limit before we try to manipulate any limit algebra.

to do this we have to prove 2 points:

(a) that the sequence is monotonically increasing (an+1 > an for all n) and thus cannot oscillate.

(b) that there is a constant number bigger than any value of the sequence for all n (like an asymptote which "blocks" the sequence from diverging to infinity)

if we can show that (a) and (b) are true, we have effectively shown the sequence must converge to a finite limit.

define the infinite square root as the limit of the sequence an with the following recursion formulae:

a0 = 0

an+1 = root(1 + an) --------(1)

by inspection: an < an+1 ((a) is true)

rearranging (1) for an and subbing into this inequality yields:

an+1^2 - 1 < an+1

an+1^2 - an+1 - 1 < 0

this implies an+1 < [1 + root(5)]/2 (using the quadratic equation)

an < an+1 < [1 + root(5)]/2

(b) is true as the sequence is always less than the constant [1 + root(5)]/2

therefore, the sequence must converge to some finite number, phi, and we can only now apply limit laws:

phi = root(1 + phi)

phi = [1 + root(5)]/2

 

m.jakaran

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
111
Gender
Male
HSC
2010
the problem with this proof is that it assumes root ((((1 + root (((1 + root ((1 + root (1 + ...)))) converges to a finite number phi. for example, how do we know it doesnt shoot off to infinity instead?

allow me to illustrate my point by considering a similar "repetition":

((( (...) - 1)^2 - 1)^2 - 1)^2

we could define this as the limit of the sequence an with the following recursion formulae:

a0 = 0

an+1 = (an - 1)^2

if we assume this sequence has a finite limit L then by limit laws:

L = (L - 1)^2

which implies:

L = [3 +/- root(5)] / 2

L ~ 2.618, L ~ 0.382

this is nonsense. if instead we look at each iteration, we observe that the sequence oscillates between 0 and 1 and does not converge:

a0 = 0

a1 = 1

a2 = 0
.
.
.

this example shows that its possible to obtain an incorrect limit just by simply assuming the sequence converges. returning back to the infinite square root problem, we must first be sure that it does indeed have a finite limit before we try to manipulate any limit algebra.

to do this we have to prove 2 points:

(a) that the sequence is monotonically increasing (an+1 > an for all n) and thus cannot oscillate.

(b) that there is a constant number bigger than any value of the sequence for all n (like an asymptote which "blocks" the sequence from diverging to infinity)

if we can show that (a) and (b) are true, we have effectively shown the sequence must converge to a finite limit.

define the infinite square root as the limit of the sequence an with the following recursion formulae:

a0 = 0

an+1 = root(1 + an) --------(1)

by inspection: an < an+1 ((a) is true)

rearranging (1) for an and subbing into this inequality yields:

an+1^2 - 1 < an+1

an+1^2 - an+1 - 1 < 0

this implies an+1 < [1 + root(5)]/2 (using the quadratic equation)

an < an+1 < [1 + root(5)]/2

(b) is true as the sequence is always less than the constant [1 + root(5)]/2

therefore, the sequence must converge to some finite number, phi, and we can only now apply limit laws:

phi = root(1 + phi)

phi = [1 + root(5)]/2
wow, do you do maths at uni?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top