Extension 2 English vs. Extension 2 Maths? (1 Viewer)

heyoverthere

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Heyy :)

Im currently in year 11 and am tossing up what subjects to do for year 12 next term.
These are my subjects at the moment:
3 Maths
3 English
Modern
Chem
Eco

I know I am going to defs drop chem, so I'm tossing up between taking 4 English and 3 maths or 4 Maths and 3 English??
any thoughts?

English is defs my strongest subjective! and I love writing. but im not bad at maths either, I just don't enjoy it quite as much.
only reason im considering 4 maths over English is because of the scaling aspect.

what do you guys reckon ?

also, im aiming to get into law in usyd, unsw or uts -so looking for a pretty high atar !

thanks x
 

DatAtarLyfe

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To me, it looks like you should be doing extension 2 english just cause it reflects upon your current abilities in extension english, as well as the fact that you want to do law. You should maybe considering doing both as it could benefit you atar dramatically (if you do well ofc)
 

crowley926

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Haha you literally answered your own question in the description.

I think you should do eng ext 2 purely because you enjoy it and it's 1 major (with no exams) that you can perfect all year. And it may involve a lot of work but if you enjoy writing and are good at it then there's no reason you shouldn't succeed. 4u maths is a LOT of work and you have to be dedicated to practising every day so if you're not a fan of maths then you might struggle.

Also if you do well in eng ext 2 then (assuming you do well in everything else too) your ATAR will be fine. Or you COULD do both 4u eng and 4u maths but again you'd have to work really hard
 

psyc1011

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Haha you literally answered your own question in the description.

I think you should do eng ext 2 purely because you enjoy it and it's 1 major (with no exams) that you can perfect all year. And it may involve a lot of work but if you enjoy writing and are good at it then there's no reason you shouldn't succeed. 4u maths is a LOT of work and you have to be dedicated to practising every day so if you're not a fan of maths then you might struggle.

Also if you do well in eng ext 2 then (assuming you do well in everything else too) your ATAR will be fine. Or you COULD do both 4u eng and 4u maths but again you'd have to work really hard
lol

Not understanding this
 

crowley926

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Well despite having only one major work to focus on, it does involve a lot of work and they are expecting a good standard of work haha
 

turntaker

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if you want to do law i guess English extension is more relevant
 

Kiraken

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Did both and honestly they both have their benefits.

Ext 2 maths scales a LOT better, so if you are *equally* good at both and u have equal drive to succeed in both, atar wise ext 2 maths is gonna benefit you more.

However, to have the drive for ext 2 maths u actually rly need to care about it and if u get demotivated cos u dont enjoy it or because u regret not doing ext 2 english then it wont be good.

Ext2 also has the major work format mentioned earlier, and it's easier to stay motivated cos u have the freedom to basically do ur OWN thing. It will also hone skills more applicable to the law degree that u wish to do.
 

pzeait

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Doing a high level of math widens your thinking and allows you to think more logically. If you were to become a lawyer, this would advantage you majorly.
 

iStudent

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MX2 will most certainly count more towards to your atar than english unless you're an absolute gunner at english (or if your maths is that much worse than english...).

I definitely recommend mx2 and 4u eng if you would like. You're prob better off dropping another subject (like modern) so you can manage the workload.
 

sida1049

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As pzeait mentioned, the degree of logical reasoning and structure in mathematics is crucial to a career in law, where you need to be able to prudently review lines of arguments and take them apart to contend them logically and cogently. While English does offer some degree of reasoning ability that is relevant, the amount of logic in mathematics will benefit your lawyerly cognitive abilities.

From my experiences of Mathematics Extension 2, I love it. The very first topic, complex numbers, hits you like a ton of bricks because it proves to you that you know very little about mathematics; it introduces a completely new system of numbers which you've avoided in your previous studies. I suggest at least trying out Mathematics Extension 2 for at least four weeks then making an ultimatum regarding whether you should continue.

If your aim is Law at USYD, which requires 99+ ATAR, Mathematics Extension 2 is the highest scaling mainstream subject. The bottom 25-30% of the state each year has an ATAR equivalence for the subject of at least 98. Being the bottom 45-50% (approximately mid-50s exam raw mark) is enough to earn you the ATAR equivalence which matches your desired course. Compared with English Extension 2, you have to remain in the top 6-8% (approximately at least mid-80%) of the state to reach the ATAR equivalence of 99.5.

Nevertheless if you genuinely enjoy the creativity of that demanded of English Extension 2 students, by all means go for it. It does sound like it might suit you more, based on interest. I'd still contend that you might find it insightful to at least taste Extension 2 Mathematics, since I've found that there is quite a significant difference between the way that topics are taught and tested between MX1 and MX2 (e.g. there is more focus on reasoning and derivation, and marks are awarded on the basis of ideas and approach rather than algebra [I've gotten marks for leaving out square roots, writing fractions upside-down, sign errors, writing an entire paragraph because I couldn't think of anything, et cetera]).

The people in my cohort who are doing MX2 or EX2 (no-one overlaps in those two subjects) seem to be quite content in their choices, so I'm sure you won't regret your decision in the end, which ever subject you lean towards (or both!).
 
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psyc1011

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@sida1049 I think it depends on how you study MX2. If you learn 'how' but not much of 'why', then your logical reasoning abilities may not be truly tested/improved. I felt that MX2 improved problem solving skills, perseverance and creativity. Not sure about logical reasoning though, I struggled at the start but did not see my logic improve even though I did maths with logic. Step-by-step with reason or not proceed.

This area is quite cloudy for me.

Maybe we are talking about different logical reasoning perspectives... I think logic in mathematics is different to logic in social sciences. I have friends who are not mathematically inclined but smash the social sciences (eg. economics.) What do you think?

But for LAW, critical thinking is the main skill required
 

davidgoes4wce

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I have learnt the 3 Unit Maths this year and will take 4 Unit on next year. (I'm studying it myself through Videos, purchasing the text books and redoing past exam papers) I also read somewhere that in a Year 12 year, someone mentioned you should ideally look for a tutor to get you up to speed in the harder maths courses in high school. (They will get you up to speed with the relevant content in an efficient way) I needed a solid year to get the foundations of 3 Unit maths right and the course is a challenge but rewarding experience once you go through more questions again and again.

I am keen on building on this knowledge and possibly look to get into the area of teaching at either a high school or university level. The big lessons also from my perspective, is there are many jobs out there if you are excellent in maths and/or English. (you will always be in demand) I actually have had a few calls from tutoring companies in Sydney with regards to my tutoring but have had to decline as I have a fairly full schedule. I will also admit I am not perfect at maths but perseverance and hard work has got me to where I am today.
 

sida1049

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@sida1049 I think it depends on how you study MX2. If you learn 'how' but not much of 'why', then your logical reasoning abilities may not be truly tested/improved. I felt that MX2 improved problem solving skills, perseverance and creativity. Not sure about logical reasoning though, I struggled at the start but did not see my logic improve even though I did maths with logic. Step-by-step with reason or not proceed.

This area is quite cloudy for me.

Maybe we are talking about different logical reasoning perspectives... I think logic in mathematics is different to logic in social sciences. I have friends who are not mathematically inclined but smash the social sciences (eg. economics.) What do you think?

But for LAW, critical thinking is the main skill required
Oh yeah, I agree with you. Some of our top MX2 students focus on exam technique and not really the pure reasoning behind them. The most logically rigorous topics in the course, in my opinion, are probably inequalities, the uncommon complex number questions and a bit of the curve sketching topic (e.g. finding values of a constant which satisfies a certain condition). But for topics like conics and polynomials (despite people consider the latter as among the easiest topics, I've seen questions that I can't even make sense of to begin with), intuition and creativity are definitely key. While I agree that logic might only improve marginally, if at all, with MX2, at least students are exposed to it. And your mentioning of perseverance I think is an extraordinarily important aspect which extends far beyond academia and one's career (in essence, it teaches one to hope).

As much as I love economics (or at least, what little I've been exposed to it) and appreciate some of the other social sciences, they barely have any mathematical reasoning. Mathematics deals with certainty, where as social sciences pertain towards uncertainty and hence is non-committal in its core (e.g. the low modality language of "may", "should", "might", "perhaps"). I'd argue that economics and literary critiques/essays share an unmistakable similarity in that sense; inductive logic (i.e. the conclusion is probable), much unlike the deductive logic that is prevalent throughout mathematics (i.e. the conclusion is absolute). So you are definitely right: the social sciences, while logical, incorporates a different kind of logic to mathematical reasoning.

For law, aside from critical thinking, I'd say that one needs the ability to deal with bureaucracy in order to really succeed in law. The critical thinking is there, but I suspect that the vast majority of a career in law is bureaucracy. No subject can teach you how to deal with that (albeit the education system is a good simulation of bureaucracy; I'm still bitter about all the crap that I've lost in the system which I will never be handed back).

Coming back to the original topic, I think MX2 exposes students to the need for organisation, more so that EX2 at least. It takes up only 2 out of my 12 units and through out the year I'm sure I've spent about 40% of my precious time and effort on it [and there are some who exceed 50-60%], so it really does offer a much needed challenge for students to sharpen their self-management skills in preparation for the HSC, university, and beyond.

Fun stuff.
 
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Kiraken

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the skills you learn in extension 2 english are far more applicable to law than ext 2 maths

ext 2 english requires a whole other level of critical thinking compared to advanced english or even extension 1 english. You have to also maintain a journal throughout the year and research readings that you have to critically analyse. Also critical thinking isn't some catch-all term that can be applied everywhere, the type of critical thinking required in ext 2 maths is not necessarily going to be the same type of critical thinking applicable to law.

Ext 2 maths is mainly useful for law cos the ridiculous scaling makes it easier to get the ATAR to get in, beyond that it has limited utility (apart from helping you develop skills like perseverance etc. that ext 2 english and life in general also helps you develop)
 

psyc1011

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Oh yeah, I agree with you. Some of our top MX2 students focus on exam technique and not really the pure reasoning behind them. The most logically rigorous topics in the course, in my opinion, are probably inequalities, the uncommon complex number questions and a bit of the curve sketching topic (e.g. finding values of a constant which satisfies a certain condition). But for topics like conics and polynomials (despite people consider the latter as among the easiest topics, I've seen questions that I can't even make sense of to begin with), intuition and creativity are definitely key. While I agree that logic might only improve marginally, if at all, with MX2, at least students are exposed to it. And your mentioning of perseverance I think is an extraordinarily important aspect which extends far beyond academia and one's career (in essence, it teaches one to hope).

As much as I love economics (or at least, what little I've been exposed to it) and appreciate some of the other social sciences, they barely have any mathematical reasoning. Mathematics deals with certainty, where as social sciences pertain towards uncertainty and hence is non-committal in its core (e.g. the low modality language of "may", "should", "might", "perhaps"). I'd argue that economics and literary critiques/essays share an unmistakable similarity in that sense; inductive logic (i.e. the conclusion is probable), much unlike the deductive logic that is prevalent throughout mathematics (i.e. the conclusion is absolute). So you are definitely right: the social sciences, while logical, incorporates a different kind of logic to mathematical reasoning.

For law, aside from critical thinking, I'd say that one needs the ability to deal with bureaucracy in order to really succeed in law. The critical thinking is there, but I suspect that the vast majority of a career in law is bureaucracy. No subject can teach you how to deal with that (albeit the education system is a good simulation of bureaucracy; I'm still bitter about all the crap that I've lost in the system which I will never be handed back).

Coming back to the original topic, I think MX2 exposes students to the need for organisation, more so that EX2 at least. It takes up only 2 out of my 12 units and through out the year I'm sure I've spent about 40% of my precious time and effort on it [and there are some who exceed 50-60%], so it really does offer a much needed challenge for students to sharpen their self-management skills in preparation for the HSC, university, and beyond.

Fun stuff.
Definitely. The exposure to MX2 will probably be a memorable experience and gives the students a new (and exciting) way of thinking. Yeah, those topics (inequalities, complex, graph) were fun and knowing 'why' made it even more fun... A pitfall that some (inc. me) fall into when doing hard maths questions is that they rely on intuition, that 'spark' rather than logic and putting into use their problem solving skills. This in turns impedes one's ability to refine their logic skills.

Great response, cleared up the fog on social sciences bit! :) (and hopefully this helped OP)

the skills you learn in extension 2 english are far more applicable to law than ext 2 maths

ext 2 english requires a whole other level of critical thinking compared to advanced english or even extension 1 english. You have to also maintain a journal throughout the year and research readings that you have to critically analyse. Also critical thinking isn't some catch-all term that can be applied everywhere, the type of critical thinking required in ext 2 maths is not necessarily going to be the same type of critical thinking applicable to law.

Ext 2 maths is mainly useful for law cos the ridiculous scaling makes it easier to get the ATAR to get in, beyond that it has limited utility (apart from helping you develop skills like perseverance etc. that ext 2 english and life in general also helps you develop)
Ah, yes. That's where the gap of knowledge for me is. Critical thinking in maths concentrates in the problem solving and analytical realms
 
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heyoverthere

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thanks everyone for all the replies! still in a bit of a dilemma tbh so any final wise words would be much appreciated
 

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