ARCHIVES - August 30, 2005
EXTREME MEASURES
Last week John Howard heard from some Australian Muslims at a summit in Canberra. But other prominent Muslims with radical opinions weren't invited to the meeting. Tonight radical voices join moderates and the Attorney-General in our studio. There are some notable absentees - Sheik Omran, a controversial cleric from Melbourne, declined our invitation to debate his fellow Muslim Australians. But Sheik Omran's views are on the record.
JENNY BROCKIE: On this program he was asked what he told his followers to think about Osama bin Laden. This was his answer.
SHEIK OMRAN, MUSLIM CLERIC: Again, this is a complex matter. We talk about a person who sacrificed himself, his wealth, his family for something he believes is absolutely true and in that regard I find him a very great man.
60 MINUTES, PETER OVERTON: Who is responsible for September 11?
SHEIK OMRAN: I don't want to say USA Government, but I would say some of them they are responsible for that.
PETER OVERTON: The government is responsible?
SHEIK OMRAN: Yes. Yes, I believe in that 100%. I believe there is - what they call it - a conspiracy against Islam and Muslims.
REPORTER 1: Is it a good Muslim's duty to go and fight the Coalition forces for Jihad in Iraq at the moment?
SHEIK OMRAN: I would say yes. Yes.
JENNY BROCKIE: Well Adem Somyurek you're a Muslim and you’re a Victorian MP. You've said recently we have the same types of people in Melbourne as those polarising London. Do you mean people like Sheik Omran?
ADEM SOMYUREK, VICTORIAN MP: Can I say to you, Jenny, I entered parliament in November 2002, not as a Muslim MP but as candidate representing the values of my party, the ALP, and ultimately I am in parliament to represent my constituents.
JENNY BROCKIE: But the question I'm asking is, when you talk about extremism, is that what you're talking about?
ADEM SOMYUREK: It is, absolutely it is. I entered this discussion only after the London bombings, prior to that I did not want to give a running commentary on Muslim issues. After the London bombings people such as the gentleman just seen there, by the way I congratulate him for keeping a low profile too.
JENNY BROCKIE: So you're glad he's not here.
ADEM SOMYUREK: I’m happy that he is keeping a low profile, that's sensible actually, that's to be congratulated.
JENNY BROCKIE: He hasn't kept a low profile, he’s had quite a high profile.
ADEM SOMYUREK: He has for the last month or so. I think he has for the last month or so.
JENNY BROCKIE: He's a prominent Muslim leader in Melbourne and presumably he has a fair amount influence over young people. Is that dangerous, do you think? Someone like that, to be influencing young people.
ADEM SOMYUREK: I would say his influence is overstated but certainly he has been getting the headlines. I was frustrated at that and I was also frustrated at the inability of mainstream Muslim leaders to nail a simple anti-terror message. Muslim leaders have condemned terrorism and they've done it often, but the problem is when you get leaders that want to go off on a tangent and, for example, talk about go off on a diatribe about ...
JENNY BROCKIE: Well saying the US is responsible for September 11.
ADEM SOMYUREK: Well exactly, a long and convoluted diatribe about American Imperial foreign policy objectives and practices in the Middle East and the rest of the world. This is not nailing a message. This is going off on a tangent.
JENNY BROCKIE: Okay Nasya, what about you, your from Melbourne, how do you feel about Sheik Omran speaking for Muslim Australians, or that being the impression that people out in the community have that he's somehow representing Muslim people?
NASYA BARFIN, LECTURER, DEAKIN UNIVERSITY: Unfortunately the people who are outside the community ... it's really difficult to understand how Byzantine and how complex views within the Muslim community are. And when you're looking at it through the prism of person A or person B, it's easy to take that view as representative of the whole community.
JENNY BROCKIE: Are you worried about views like that?
NASYA BARFIN: I'm more worried about how people will react to those views, both Muslims and non-Muslims.
JENNY BROCKIE: What do you mean by that, how they will react?
NASYA BARFIN: I'm worried about my mother walking down the street with nobody with her and getting attacked. I'm worried about people's reactions to those views in terms of what my little brother has to face in his classes. That's what I'm worried about.
JENNY BROCKIE: Aside from the discrimination, are you worried about those views at a more political level, at the level of somebody preaching that kind of thing?
NASYA BARFIN: I think perhaps you're underestimating the intelligence of the average Australian viewer. You've got to bear in mind the audience isn't a passive one.
JENNY BROCKIE: Okay, fair enough. Kuranda, yes?
KURANDA SEYIT, FORUM OF AUSTRALIAN ISLAMIC RELATIONS: I think the fundamental cornerstone of Australian society is freedom of speech, freedom of _expression. He has the right of express himself any way he wants as long as I believe the line is drawn when he's inciting any form of violence. If he doesn't do that then he has a right to express himself and I think that's the beauty of Australian society.
JENNY BROCKIE: So Kuranda, do you have a problem with him saying that?
KURANDA SEYIT: Personally, I have a problem with him because of what Nasya said, it is the reaction that the mainstream society has thinking that all Muslims are like him. He's a minority and he doesn't represent most Muslims. In actual fact he's probably less than 1% of the Muslim communities in Australia.
WASSIM DOUREIHI, HIZD UT-TAHRIR: What's most disconcerting the Australian public is being told we should be greatly concerned about words being spokenWHEREas in reality that there are Muslims dying in their hundreds and thousands in the Muslim world that is directly responsible by a response carried out by the hands of this Australian government.
JENNY BROCKIE: Well even accepting that Muslims are dying, I would like to ask you Wassim, because you're a local spokesman for Hizb ut-Tahrir, now it’s an organisation that's about to be banned in Britain after the London bombings and I'm interested in that context, in what you think about Osama bin Laden and I would like a clear answer from you about what you think about Osama bin Laden - is he great man, do you support what he and al-Qa'ida are doing?
WASSIM DOUREIHI: Well the very clear answer to that is that the issue is bigger than Osama bin Laden. What is most important is that irrespective of the identity of the perpetrators of 9/11 or Madrid or London, the reality is that western governments have used the events ...
JENNY BROCKIE: That's not a clear answer to my question, I’m sorry that’s not, no it’s not a clear answer to my question. My question is really simple. It is a really simple question.
WASSIM DOUREIHI: The answer is simpler ...
JENNY BROCKIE: Do you condemn. I would like to ask the question. Do you condemn the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qa'ida, yes or no?
WASSIM DOUREIHI: I can go even further than that. I will state unequivocally and this is where I challenge the government and everyone else, I will state unequivocally, I will condemn the killing of any non- combative innocent civilians, whether in Australia or whether in Iraq. Now will the government do the same?
JENNY BROCKIE: Alright so you're saying you don't support al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.
WASSIM DOUREIHI: I don’t support at all and no Muslim supports and no-one has gone on the record to say that they will justify the killing of innocent civilians. The reality is that we have been told, that we should be concerned about words that are spokenWHEREas in reality bombs are being dropped by B52s.
JENNY BROCKIE: Okay, Sheik Yasin, you're a visiting lecturer from the United States, what do you think of Osama bin Laden?
SHEIK KHALID YASIN, US CLERIC: I think it is wrong for you and any one else to personalise this issue with Osama bin Laden, I am as a visiting lecturer to this country, I am a visitor to any other country and an American, I am enraged that people keep personalising this with individuals. I do not support the suicide bombers or genocide bombers, wholesale terror or retail terror, the terror of individuals or the terror of states. I think again I would like to reiterate what my constituent over here said, that you are personalising the issue and that is not the whole issue. It is not a baseball team.
JENNY BROCKIE: To be fair, I don't think I'm personalising the issue, I'm bouncing off what somebody else has said here.
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: I'm bouncing directly off you, you're coordinating this discussion.
JENNY BROCKIE: Okay, so you are saying that you don't ...
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: I've said for the record, my answer to what you've just said, and I don't think we should personalise the issue. We're living under a spectrum of terror and if you tear that spectrum in half and make a straight line there are two ends of it. We need to work about both ends, those who provoke it and those who react to the provocations.
JENNY BROCKIE: Yes Amjad?
AMJAD MEHBOOB, AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION OF ISLAMIC COUNCILS: We have made this point very clear before, that it is about time that the Muslims owned up to some of the things that are happening. It is a wrong message that we are sending to our community, our youth, when we keep on saying that Osama bin Laden is a great man. Or that we are not prepared to say that what he did was wrong. It is about time we did that. It's very important that we should put the cards on the table ...
JENNY BROCKIE: Do you think there's too much obfuscating going on. Do you think people are not being direct enough in saying that in the Muslim community?
AMJAD MEHBOOB: Absolutely, absolutely and I think we need to put this matter straight on the table. What has gone on has had involvement of Muslims around the world and it's about time we acknowledge that and we move on from there to deal with it.
JENNY BROCKIE: Adem, you were agreeing?
ADEM SOMYUREK: Yes I think to talk about Iraq, look, September 11 happened before Iraq, so Iraq cannot justify acts of terror, I think. There are competing images of Islam at the moment. One image is this gentleman here staring us there with the kalishnikove, and the other image is a peaceful Muslim overwhelming majority population. The challenge for the Muslims today is to make sure that the dominant images of Islam in Australia are those of peace.
JENNY BROCKIE: Philip Ruddock I would like to bring you in at this point, now Wasssim Doureihi’s group is about to be banned in Britain, he's sitting here, and today you've expressed concern about Hizb ut-Tahrir, the group that he's involved in. You have said that it gives sucker and counsel, are the terms you used, to terrorism or to the things that we have been talking about. What are you going to do about that? Are you planning to ban this group, to ban the group this young man is a member of?
PHILIP RUDDOCK, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well I would like to make one statement first and that is that the government certainly does not counsel the killing of innocent civilians and when civilians are deliberately targeted for death by terrorists, that is a very different set of circumstances to somebody who may be unfortunately, and I use that term very deliberately, the subject of collateral activity where they've not been targeted at allWHERE they've not been targeted at all.
JENNY BROCKIE: We're not going to get into a debate about Iraq here because that's not why we're here. I would like to move on to the question I asked you which was about Wassim's group and the banning of Wassim’s group. Why are you expressing an interest in possibly ban this group in following what they've done in Britain. What is it that worries you about the group.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well Hizb ut-Tahrir has been the subject of prescription in a number of subject countries, through central Asia and eastern Europe and in Germany.
JENNY BROCKIE: What is it about that group that worries you?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: I've indicated that they have been the subject of prescription in a number of countries and Britain has now announced that it is doing so. I asked our agencies here whether under the criminal code it could be prescribed and the test ... ...
JENNY BROCKIE: And you found that it couldn't.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: The test is outlined in the legislation is that you can only ban or prescribe an organisation where it has planned, prepared or Fostered ... and Fostered is governed by the earlier words that are used ... and the legal advice is that even though it may give sucker and encouragement to terrorist activity, that that would not bring it within the specific provisions of the criminal code.
JENNY BROCKIE: How do you think it gives sucker and encouragement to terrorist activities?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: The point I made very deliberately was that the legislation does not cover that sort of activity and so if you have an organisation ... and I wasn't suggesting in relation to Hizb ut-Tahrir, that I'd formed a view about it at all because if a decision is to be made, if the law is changed it's got to be made objectively and on the facts ...
JENNY BROCKIE: It sounds like that's the way you're headed though, yes?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: No, it is a question that we will be looking at in the context of a review of the legislation that we're undertaking.
JENNY BROCKIE: A quick response from you Wassim.
WASSIM DOUREIHI: Let me put it in context, and when we want to talk about terrorism we can't localise the issue just in Australia, it is a global phenomenon and it has developed as a consequence of events. First of all let’s be realistic, and every Australian should know that the western world has occupied Islam for over a century, has destroyed its strengths, divided lands, appointed tyrant rulers over it, stolen it’s resources. Now the reality is that the Muslim’s are trying to free themselves from the shackles of Western Imperialism. Now the problem is that Western Governments are not only are they not prepared to accept the price that comes with the colonisation…
JENNY BROCKIE: So the price is suicide bombing?
WASSIM DOUREIHI: The reality is they are not even prepared to accept criticism of their foreign policy and that's the reality. When you start talking about banning Hizb ut-Tahrir, which the world over knows is a non-violent organisation that purely deals with intellectual and political means, the reality is the message that is sent to the Muslim community is that this government as are all western governments are no longer prepared to accept any criticism of their foreign policy.
JENNY BROCKIE: Nasya, you wanted to say something?
NASYA BARFIN: I also wanted to add that there is a real danger in narrowing the framework the discussion to how many Muslims condemn Osama bin Laden. If we're serious about clamping down on extremism, we've got to move away from this De-contextualising of terrorism and insisting that the framework of the discussion be, do the Muslims in Australia condemn Osama bin Laden or not. If we were to get every single Muslim in Australia to sign a letter to saying, "we do not like Osama bin Laden" I don't see how that is going to deal with the roots of terrorism.
JENNY BROCKIE: I think what people want to know is, how big is the danger, the threat of extremism. The average person wants to know whether a suicide bombing is likely to happen in Australia and if soWHERE it's going to come from and how it's going to eventuate?
NASYA BARFIN: Perhaps the paradigm of the discussion then should move beyond who is extremist, who is moderate, with these very divisive labels.
MAN: There are extremists on both sides. We're extremism is not just coming from the Muslim community. If we view it in a negative context, we're perpetrators of extremism as well. This is a human problem, this isn't just about Muslims or about western society, this is for all of us to consider.
IRFAN YUSUF, MUSLIM LAWYER: It is a bit rich for the Government to start lecturing people about extremism when Philip Ruddock knows that is in his own conference there are extremist young Liberals who are stacking out his branches. We've already had one last night, John Brogden.
JENNY BROCKIE: But they're not bombing people, are they.
IRFAN YUSUF: No, not yet. If you read some of the speeches that I've read in Hansard in the NSW upper house, if you read some of the rhetoric that's come out from liberal MPs, they're not killing people but it's still extreme. Is it not extreme?
JENNY BROCKIE: We’ll move on from the Liberal Party I think, a couple more comments. Down the front, yes.?
GARRY DARGAN: In terms of a terrorist attack in Australia, I think it is probably inevitable, we have had them before, the Hilton bombing was one and there have been some embassies attacked. It's probably going to happen. It may come from someone with an affiliation to Islam. But the thing that you have to remember is, that it is not just going to be the non-Muslims that are going to be the victims, the Muslims are going to be the victims as well. Just about every terrorist attack that has happened in the west has had Muslim casualties. We are all targets and at the moment this talk about us being the enemy is a big danger. Muslims need to be inside the tent fighting against the terrorists that are targeting Australia.
IRFAN YUSUF: This is what I mean when I talk about liberal MPs, backbenchers, demonising their constituents and talking about ...
JENNY BROCKIE: What are you referring to, banning head scarves?
IRFAN YUSUF: What does a cloth on a woman's head have to do with suicide bombings or dropping bombs or blowing people up? It is totally irrelevant when you have backbenchers and when you have the young liberal president, the future leaders of the party, talking about these sorts of things and talking about extremist rhetoric. It’s like when the government talks about Muslims, it’s like people in glass houses throwing stones.
JENNY BROCKIE: Okay, Adem you wanted to say something about Hizb ut-Tahrir which we were talking about before. Do you think it should be banned as an organisation in Australia?
ADEM SOMYUREK: Could I just say what Wassim said before, sounds to the average Australian out there listening, what he said sounds like justification or rationalisation of killing, of mass murder essentially. Australians don't want to hear that. They want to hear a clear unequivocal message.
WASSIM DOUREIHI: It is not justification of mass murder.
ADEM SOMYUREK: Well that’s what it sounds like.
GARRY DARGAN: I don't disagree with a lot of Wassim and his other organisation say. But I've never heard them justify killing anybody. They have a message that comes out from the young socialists at university and a whole range of others. You're going to have to ban a whole lot of other people if you ban him.
JENNY BROCKIE: Sheik Yasin, yes.
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: Let me say something. As students of history we forget this whole new definition of terrorism is about eight or ten years old. The new definition. But there's an old definition. Look to Thorndyke, Webster, look to Funk and Wagnel, look to the definition of terrorism and I give you 14 countries that right now, are theG9 who themselves have perpetrated and fell within the categorisation and very clear definition of terrorism. And I'll tell you what it cost over the period of the last 150 years, it cost 37 million lives, so I ask you what this new definition of terrorism we keep on talking about. How many lives has it cost? We need to discuss the whole spectrum of terror, what is the definition of terror, who participated in it, even if we are wearing suits now, even if we have constitutions now. Did we perform it? And I ask Mr Ruddock one thing, Mr Ruddock knows in this country there is no limitation, statute of limitations on murder. If you murdered somebody 200 years ago you're still a murderer today. So I say all the people who murdered people 200 years ago are still murderers.
JENNY BROCKIE: Sheik Yasin I would like at this point to go to a few things that you've said since you've been in Australia. You're visiting Australia at the moment. Some of the things you've said that people may not have seen. Let's look at those.
SHEIK KHALID YASIN, 60 MINUTES: There's no such thing as a Muslim having a non-Muslim friend, so a non-Muslim could be your associate, but they can't be your friend. The punishment for homosexuality or bestiality, or anything like that, is death. We don't make any excuses about that. That's not our law. It's the Koran.
JENNY BROCKIE: Do you stand by those comments.
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: Let me say, first of all, that's what you call a sound bite. Everybody here knows a sound bite is not actually what a person said. Just a moment. Just a moment. My friend. Just a moment my friend. This was directed at myself. Hold it for a minute. Let me qualify my statement, if you will, OK. Excuse me let me qualify my statement she asked me. You'll get a chance to jump into this circus, alright. Just a minute. First of all, what I meant in Islam there are two kinds of friendship, which means that we have the right to have Muslim friends or are intimate with us. For instance Mr Ruddock here, could be my closest of friends but he couldn’t marry my daughter and I couldn't marry his daughter maybe. You see that is a different kind of friendship, you see in Islam friendship, means one that is based on Islam. The other kind of friendship, we have associates, we have colleagues, we have co workers who are our friends.
JENNY BROCKIE: And the punishment for homosexuality is death?
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: I said in Islam and also in the bible for those who are Christians. The punishment for homosexuality and beastiality is death but we're not living under Islamic government or apparatus and therefore I did not promote or I did not say this is what we should do today. That was a sound bite.
JENNY BROCKIE: Sr Aziza, I'm interested in what you have to say.
SR AZIZA ABDEL-HALIM, AM MUSLIM WOMEN’S NATIONAL NETWORK: Sheik Yasin with respect, this would give the wrong message to young people. I have a lot of Australian friends who share Islamic values with me, they're Australian values too, and when you look back to the way of the prophet and we know he was the living Koran and that we emulate him. He used to go and knock on the door of his Jewish neighbour if he didn’t see him for a few days, to find out if he was well and to see if he needed assistance. When Christian delegations came he invited him to meet about him in the mosque. When the time for prayer came he allowed them to pray in the mosque. Why are we then stressing extreme lies like marriage that is personal decision anyway.
SHEIK KHALID YASINI: I can answer her question?
SR AZIZA: We cannot promote an attitude like that among the young people.
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: The Koran forbids that I give my daughter to a Christian.
SR AZIZA: We're not talking about marriage we are talking about friendship.
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: I qualified what I meant by friendship.
JENNY BROCKIE: Sr Aziza when you hear those sorts of comment as an Australian Muslim how do you feel about the fact that's the representation?
SR AZIZA: I feel very upset because I feel that young people on both sides, Muslims and non-Muslims are getting the wrong message, they're getting the message we cannot be friend with you, we cannot share anything with you and that's not right.
JENNY BROCKIE: Clearly there's criticism of the media in this. Is there also criticism of the communities or members of the community the way they're portraying it?
SR AZIZA: Yes. A lot of women sometimes that I meet tell me "My daughter is a friend of an Australian girl. I can't let her be like that." I said, "Why. Australians believe in family values, believe in morals, believe in a lot of things. Just check the family and find out if they're on the same level as yourself."
JENNY BROCKIE: The gentleman up the back.
MAN: I would like to ask the Attorney-General one question and that is as a simple 7th generation Australian I've always felt that incitement to murder is a criminal offence. And I really wonder what is the problem, if these people are encouraging others to commit mass murder, why isn't the government doing something about it.
JENNY BROCKIE: I don't know that we've established that these people are doing that. Philip Ruddock, a quick response?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: All these matters depend upon the facts and there may well be an offence if the relevant evidence is there, an offence is committed. I'm not going on a hypothetical situation to give a legal opinion.
JENNY BROCKIE: We have incitement laws at the moment that cover this sort of thing. Why are you flagging the need for new laws to deal with some of these issues if we've already got incitement laws that do cover incitement to violence, aren't they adequate?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: I think in relation to the way in which the law is operated and the advice we have in relation to particular facts situations, it may well be necessary to extend the operation of the law to put beyond doubt what the parliament might intend. But I'm not going to foreshadow provisions in matters where we haven't yet concluded our deliberations.
JENNY BROCKIE: So you're foreshadowing something but you're not telling us what it is?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well the Prime Minister made it very clear in the light of the London bombings that we would look at what is being done abroad, see if there are any lessons in relation to our domestic situation and then in a considered way bring forward any amendment that is might be necessary.
JENNY BROCKIE: Julian Burnside, I know you've got strong views on this whole issue of speech. At what point does speech become dangerous.
JULIAN BURNSIDE, QC BARRISTER: Look I'm troubled about the way this conversation is going. It is falling into the same trap as the public conversation at large. You pick out a couple of extreme views and the assumption is that these are generally shared. If Cardinal Pell got up and expressed an extreme view I don’t think the community at large would attribute those views to the entire Christian community in Australia.
JENNY BROCKIE: One of the interesting things that has happened in doing research for this program is that in talking to Muslim Australians, what we've found is a lot of people are not happy with the leadership in the community. That that seems to be part of the problem. Is that a fair comment? Do people feel that the leadership isn't adequately responding to the ...
SHEIK KHALID YASIN: You're responding to the statement he made here.
JENNY BROCKIE: No, the statement he makes say valid statement to make, but I think beyond that, there is also an issue of who are the people are popping their heads up and making comments that are read as, by the broader population as representative of Muslim Australians. Do you think that's a problem?
JULIAN BURNSIDE: In the present climate I can quite understand that moderate Muslims, Muslims who think they're being misrepresented by statements like, this might be a little hesitant to put their heads of the parapet. It is not a great climate for that sort of free speech.
JENNY BROCKIE: But I think there are people here who want to put their heads above the parapet. Kuranda you have been critical of leadership, haven't you?
KURANDA SEYIT: I think we've got to appreciate the fact the Islamic community is not one homogeneous group. There are so many different factions, there are so many different ethnicities and so you will get people who call themselves leaders and they will speak on behalf of their congregation but won't represent the mainstream. I know for a fact that no-one in the Islamic community in Australia is inciting violence. No-one is calling for any sort of so-called Jihad. What people are saying is they're unhappy with some of the things that are going on in Iraq or Palestine. They have a right to express those views but their not inciting violence. I don't know any Muslims that have any values that are incompatible with the so-called Australian values that our liberal government has been espousing, so I don't see what the problem is. Australian Muslims are one of the most integrated Islamic communities living in the west. We've got to be proud of that fact and work with the community.
JENNY BROCKIE: Dr Nab Biel Ibrahim, you've set up a group called Australian Muslim doctors against violence. With 57 doctors I think, who are members of that group, what do you think about the way that the Muslim community has responded to the climate at the moment? in terms of leadership.
DR NABEEL IBRAHIM: Let me tell you, the absolutely single reason that we formed the group was the very obvious absence of leadership within the Muslim community. At a time when the PM was in London and he was crying out for people to do enough and also we realised that there is a definite risk as doctors and surgeons and we realised that there is a definite risk and people who do understand human beings and human suffering and we're in the game of looking after people, we really did not really see a reason for us to be ... to wait until we're dealing with the problem at the other end.
JENNY BROCKIE: So you felt there wasn't enough leadership?
DR NABEEL IBRAHIM: It is not only that. In fact, for a long long time we felt that the leadership was in the Muslim community is far from conclusively representing the community and particularly ...
JENNY BROCKIE: The gentleman here.
MAN: The problem is not with the leadership. This is the problem with the democracy is a democracy where the people want to come ahead and do something, but problem is even if the leadership condemned something while the state terrorism continues and the people still butchered in Iraq and Palestine, in Afghanistan, every where, nobody will listen to this leadership anyway, so the leadership ... the problem is to address the causes of the terrorism which is why Australia spend, USA was only targeted in the last few years. It's very clear because of the extreme governments in USA, in Australia and Britain and Spain which is continuing what was ...
JENNY BROCKIE: You're saying that's what's driving the problem?
MAN: Any issue like I came from medical background. If we want to talk about medical issues we must address the causes and the causes is not because my fellow friend here is saying something or the other, fellow friend is saying something else, the causes of the issue is the injustice, the huge injustice for the last decades which has inflicted on the Muslim world.
JENNY BROCKIE: Jahad quickly?
JAHAD DID: I want to take that point a little bit further I think we’re moving away from it. My understanding is that there are 300,000 Australian Muslims at the moment, of that it is only a very, very small minority that may express a particular view that seems to go against what the grain of what the majority of people are talking about. And I’m not talking about a majority of 51% I'm talking about a majority of over 90%. What I've got a concern about is the fact that if we keep on creating these supposed divisions, then eventually some people may start to feel a bit disenfranchised and some things where they used to think, look this is not me, this doesn't appeal to me, I am Australian, then I'm concerned that we may start losing a few people who are. Over 90% are moderate, they might start getting different opinions and so forth, that is my concern. That's what I think we should really be addressing at the moment.
JENNY BROCKIE: Gentleman up the back.
MOHAMMED ZAOUD: Madam, may I say just to go constructive discussion, I would really like to say that there are some many Muslims out there who really want to integrate into this nation and I think what we're saying today is not really being constructive. What I would like to say, if you let me finish, please, is just a message to the future of this nation if we say that the future may be in Australian Muslims, just to all my fellow young Australian Muslims, please listen very carefully, those who know me are not going to like what I am going to say because I have said it so many times. Robert Kennedy once said that it is from the numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a person stands up for an ideal or acts to improve the lot of others or strikes out against injustice they send forth a tiny ripple of hope and crossing each other from a million different centres of energy endearing, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance. I hope that all the Muslims, all the Australians, Muslims and non-Muslims can wake up tomorrow morning and say that they want to build a society where they can get their kids brought up in a harmonious society.
JENNY BROCKIE: You've made your point. Thank you for making it. Clive you had your hand up before. What did you want to say?
CLIVE WILLIAMS, TERRORISM EXPERT, ANU: We can point to injustices being perpetrated in a number of places overseas, Palestine, Iraq, and so on, I think the real issue for us is trying to prevent that playing itself out in Australia. I did not really agree with the summit that was held because I felt that what we really needed to do we were not addressing the right people because I’m not sure those people really represent their people. What I would have liked to have seen instead is a summit of young people, not just Muslims, but young people who could address the issues and see where we go forward in Australia.
YOUNG MAN: In terms of the Muslim leaders out there that do get up a say what they want to say, I just feel that at this point in time, our religion says not to back way from what is the truth, but I guess they've got to understand that not just Muslims are listening to the lectures that are being given. Just make sure what you say is very clear and concise and don't leave it up and open for people to just take sound bites and misunderstand it.
EMAN DANDAN: If I may, two points in particular. Number one, this whole issue of a representative or one voice I find this whole discussion really is quite ridiculous when you're looking at such a large number and such a large community. If we're going to look at representatives and people that are going to take the community that they reflect and say, " I'm going to actually do what they're asking me to do", I would like to ask a very simple question, when John Howard decided to send the troops off to Iraq we had a rally here of over 1 million people who protested against this. OK? Now I don't believe that their voices were being heard. In regard to more people giving lectures and this matter, I think what we must address and I think you as any other journalist well know, Jenny, that many people can give lectures and many people can give talks but what goes to air is not dictated by the Muslim community. It is dictated by those who are in ownership of the media outlets.
JENNY BROCKIE: I must make the point too, I think the criticisms of the media are very fair, actually a lot of the criticism of the media is very fair on this issue, but at the same time I also know that a lot of Muslims, a lot of Muslims in the preparation of this program, there was a lot of criticism of the leadership. People were saying you hadn't stood up quickly enough, strongly enough, that organisations like the federation of Islamic councils should be doing more, it should be out there more, it should be putting its message out more often. How do you respond to those comment? They were widespread comments we had from quite a lot of people we spoke to.
AMJAD MEHBOOB: I don't say it is a perfect organisation. We are part of the community that we represent, but I believe people know from the fact that we haven't had any attacks on Muslims in the aftermath of the London bombing, for instance, was evidence of the fact that some of the things that the Muslim community as a whole, and I don't we were alone in doing that, had done the kind of programs we had conducted in the media and outside the media, that it did bring those kind of results. I think we have a long way to go, certainly, there are problems, it is a diverse community, but I think a lot of Muslims also don't know what it has done. These are some of the weakness that is we have.
JENNY BROCKIE: Waleed what do you think about this whole question of leadership?
WALEED ALY, ISLAMIC COUNCIL OF VICTORIA: I think that the thing that has been stated so far, that is, incredibly true, is that the Australian Muslim community is so diverse that the idea of having them represented so that the thoughts of 400,000 people are funnelled through the mouth of one person, is absurd.
JENNY BROCKIE: I don't think that's the criticism. The criticism I've heard is, it hasn't been strong enough. You could have ten different voices being strong in condemning violence. But the sense that it hasn't been strong enough.
AMJAD MEHBOOB: There have been lots of condemnation of that. Can I just say that at our level we did in the aftermath of September 11 we trained a whole range of people throughout Australia in dealing with the media, in managing the media, for instance. I think they did an excellent job. I can name some of those people.
GABR EL GAFI, NSW SUPREME ISLAMIC COUNCIL: Can I say something please? We're diverting a lot into the leadership. The leadership of the Australian Muslims is no good I can tell you that now, and especially AFEC.
JENNY BROCKIE: No good did you say. It's no good. Why is it no good?
GABR EL GAFI: AFEC works on dividing the community, I challenge anybody that say that AFEC work for the youth which is the future generations of Australia. But I can come to another point here. We're diverting from the actual issue. We're blaming the community for something we are haven't done. Everything time something happens in the world the Muslim community suffers. We have no authority to send the troops to Iraq. We have no authority to send the troops to Afghanistan. We have no authority to condemn the Palestinian and the Israeli every time something happens, so there is a bias. There is troops in Afghanistan, there is troops in Iraq. Government can jump up and down and say it's not the reason for terrorism. We have to go to the grass roots and treat it so we can get rid of terrorism.
DIAA MOHAMMED: You need an explanation saying we condemn terrorism. We don't need to give one. It says in the Koran if you take one innocent life it’s like taking all of mankind. If you save one innocent life it’s like saving all of mankind. You don't need a Muslim sitting on a stage saying, “we condemn killing, we condemn terrorism.” You don't need that. There is an epidemic of the Catholic priests with paedophilia, the Muslim didn’t say do you condemn paedophilia. We know what's wrong.
STEFAN SORENSON: As an ordinary Australian listening to all this and it just strikes me you're so hung up on what's happening in Iraq and Lebanon and over here and blaming governments there, ordinary Australians want to hear from you that you want to be here, that you want to ...
JENNY BROCKIE: Let him finish.
STEFAN SORENSON: That you want to share in a future together and that you want to do it in a way that we know, just as you are afraid of walking down the street, we're afraid walking down the street from you. We want to know that we can let down our barrier and build a bridge to you and that you're gonna want to come across.
MAN: The Muslims are open to discussion forums, but the thing is because of the government, I guess, ...
STEFAN SORENSON: Let's not blame the government..
MAN: Something like, you know, Muslim women with the scarves issue, that makes Muslims feel we're being alienated and left as a single group. We cannot come to an Australian, we discuss things where he understands from me and I get his point of view, he gets my point of view. That's what we would like to see happening.
JENNY BROCKIE: A couple of people who we haven't heard from, over here, yes.
SHEIKH SHAFIQ KHAN, ISLAMIC CULTURAL CENTRE: Crime is crime, Jenny. Never mind who is doing that crime. A criminal is a criminal. What happened before five, six year in Oklahoma the guy killed 200 people. He was a criminal and he was a Christian. How Hitler had done, he burned the Jews there, he was also criminal. Another I don't naming, the people they done in New York or London or in Bali or here, done also in Spain or in Gaza, that's the crime. Just listen to me. Those people this is a crime, we're condemning a crime and these kind of people they're criminals. We don't agree. Just a minute. We are as a Muslim besides our differences on other things, we as a Muslim 99.99 we're condemning all crime, all criminals. Those people they're doing, they are killing, we don't agree with them.
IRFAN YUSUF: The problem is that the views of the overwhelming majority of Australians, including Muslims, because this is a community that has been in Australia since the 1830s, remember, this is not a migrant community we're talking about, these people, their views are not being articulated by the leadership because the leadership is dominated by people with a migrant mentality. What I mean by that it is dominated by people who don't really have roots in Australia, who are prepared to say things where it is OK for them, if things go bad they can go back to Dehli or Bar or whereverWHERE am I going to go, East Ryde? It's really crazy because of that our views aren't reflected.
JENNY BROCKIE: The bottom line I think for people watching, one of the things they want to try and get a grip on, is whether there are people in Australia who are capable of carrying out suicide bombings. That's what people are frightened of. People have legitimate fears. And I wonder what people here think about that, whether they think ... Waleed, what do you think is the answer to that question?
WALEED ALY: Are there people here that can do it?
JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, that are capable of doing it, or motivated to do it, I suppose.
WALEED ALY: I'm not a security or intelligence official. You'd probably have to ask them, they'd know more than me. What frustrates me about this whole discussion is that it's a polarised discussion on the one hand about, you know, it's all about foreign policy and on the other hand it's all about ideology, especially in the public conversation. Consistently the Western government line has been terrorism is purely ... it's a ideological phenomenon. You think this way, you go do that. I think both propositions that explain very complex human behaviour through a one-dimensional narrative are equally absurd. What we're not doing is actually engaging with the human complexities that go into making someone who may have a particular ideological bent, sure, but there's a difference between having that ideological bent and actually strapping a bomb to yourself and doing it. It is far more complex than just reducing it to a discussion.
JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, it's a very important point I think that you make, the difference between doing something and having a particular ideological position. I think that often gets mixed up.
WALEED ALY: As long as we talk about good and evil, we'll actually never get anywhere.
JENNY BROCKIE: Philip Ruddock, what do you think about that? What do you think about this idea that there's a difference between people expressing political views, passionately expressing political views that might involve violence, they might involve references to violence, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to go and commit an act of terror?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: It's a question of what he said in the context and how people perhaps even with diminished capacity might react to those comments and observations and if somebody is encouraging people to go out and deliberately take the life of an innocent person, you have to ask yourself whether that conduct which might lead to such an act is something you need to deal with.
JENNY BROCKIE: And you clearly think it's ... you clearly think at the moment there's a need for tougher laws. That's what you're foreshadowing?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: The point I would say make is ... Shafiq Khan made it very clearly ... I am concerned to deal with terrorism, extremism, I have a very strong view that it cannot be confined to anyone particular community or any one religion. I don't believe there is any justification however it is put in political terms, for targeting deliberately innocent women and children to try and achieve a political objective.
MAN: That is absolute hypocrisy.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: No, it's ... And when you have people, when you put that proposition, who then argue that there is a justification for that sort of behaviour, you can see why I have some difficulty with it.
WASSIM DOUREIHI: Mr Ruddock rationalised earlier the death of 500,000 children in Iraq and if you say we can't rationalise acts of terrorism, the reality is the Australian government with its allies, the US, and Europe, have inflicted the worst sort of terrorism that has been known to mankind. He's rationalising that by justifying it ...
JENNY BROCKIE: Neil James, you want tougher laws too. Why do you want tougher laws?
NEIL JAMES, AUSTRALIAN DEFENCE ASSOCIATION: I think part of the problem tonight has been the debate, perhaps naturally enough because it's been a debate very much so far among the Muslim communities, has contextualised the problem as just applying to Muslims. If you look at this in the wider sense, Australia's a pretty tolerant society. Islamist extremists murdered 88 Australians in Bali and most Muslim Australians copped no flak about it, as an example, over two years ago.
AMJAD MEHBOOB: They did. They did. That's not correct.
NEIL JAMES: They certainly didn't cop as much flak as 88 dead Australians in Bali. There is a simple point here, and that is Australian society as a whole ... and this is one of the disadvantages the Muslim community faces ... Australian society as a whole lacks so much religious belief and understanding that the average Aussie can no longer tell the difference between the mainstream believer of any religion and a bigot. And that's half the problem because the vast majority of Muslim Australians are mainstream believers who aren't a problem at all. The gentleman over here, for instance, is a bigot and we could ...
JENNY BROCKIE:We could we get back to this question of what you want to happen because I know that you want to see much tougher laws.
NEIL JAMES: The law has to face up to this problem. Our sedition and our treason laws have to be tightened up to some extent because we face the same problem we faced when we had to fight extremism from communists or Nazis or Irish separatists. It's not a new problem. You have to take the long view and look at this calmly. We faced this problem before and we've faced it down before.
JENNY BROCKIE: Julian, I want a comment back from you on this because I know you think the political response to the climate, the political climate at the moment, has been disastrous. Why?
JULIAN BURNSIDE: It has taken centuries to get the democratic freedoms which characterise our society. No erosion of democratic freedoms should be allowed unless it is fully and plainly justified. The threat of terrorism in Australia I think is real but minor. The actual consequences of terrorism worldwide, although terrible, are minor. When you consider it, worldwide I think terrorism has killed a couple of thousand people in the last couple of years, typically the figures run at less than 1,000 deaths a year. Each one of those deaths is tragic. The war on terror has cost $400 billion American dollars. Wouldn't that money have been better spent by fighting the war against AIDS or against poverty or against childhood deaths?
JENNY BROCKIE: Senior Constable Ali Gurdag, I wonder what you think about this, because I know you're a liaison officer with the community with the police in Victoria. What do you think about this idea, do tougher laws work? Is that a way of dealing with some of the issues we've been talking about?
SENIOR CONSTABLE ALI GURDAG: Jenny, I would like to say I'm not an expert with regards to law reformation, so I suppose we've got the relevant parties here to comment on it. What I can say, though, with regards to addressing issues which impact the broader society, education is the most important way of addressing this particular issue and we've demonstrated this through Victoria Police, for example, through the multicultural liaison unitWHERE we established, we have established very strong links with members of the Muslim community, for example, and that gives them an opportunity to, I suppose, view their concerns, their issues, as well as what our concerns are, and we work together collectively, collectively, to address this particular issue. How opportune it is for me as a Muslim just listening to a lot of comment being made here today, how opportune it is for me and how grateful I am the fact that I've been born in Australia, the fact that I'm a Muslim and yet I'm taking on a leadership role by I suppose getting across a very powerful message, a very positive message to all members of the community about how we can all contribute, what our obligations as Muslims, how we can all contribute to the broader society for the betterment of society.
JENNY BROCKIE: We are nearly out of time. Adem, I know you've got a couple of proposals. What do you think about suggestions of deportation, and banning and those sorts of things? Would you like to see some people out of the country?
ADEM SOMYUREK: Look, that's the thing. Where do they go? I was born in Turkey, for example. If I turn into an extremist, or whatever we call it, we're talking about language here, why should Turkey take me? That is one big issue. Can I just say as far as education, that's the most frightening thing about London. The people that were involved in the bombings were ... on appearance, decent, upstanding, sort of middle-classish, well-educated and ostensibly well adjusted individuals. That's why I say how can you categorically say, how can you present a cogent argument to say it won't happen in Australia.
JENNY BROCKIE: Sr Aziza can I just get a final comment from you? What have you made of what you've heard tonight? What is the message you're coming away with, and the message you would like to send out to the broader community?
SR AZIZA: I would like to send out this message, that all Australians, Muslims and non-Muslims, should feel free to sympathise with victims of colonization and war, but we should also remember that Islam and Christianity condemn the taking of civilian innocent life and that more victims are Muslims that are falling every day in Iraq than maybe the forces of the coalition. Palestine is another issue all together. They're fighting on their own lands.
JENNY BROCKIE: In terms of summarising your view now about the message you want to get out, that's a complicated message in a sense. What is the message you think that needs to be sent out clearly?
SR AZIZA: The message is Australian Muslims are Australians, we care very deeply about the welfare of Australia, but we don't like to see Australians held under siege. We could like us to be treated as Australian citizens.
JENNY BROCKIE: Jahad a final comment from you.
JAHAD DIB: I was going to add a bit more to that. The most important thing tonight is trying to show people, me as a Muslim, is just as Australian as the person that lives down the road as well. To that end everything they participate in I participate in. To answer my learned friend who up there wanted to know there was a threat, there's no threat from me and there's no threat from a lot of the people I know and that's the majority of Islam in Australia, is a moderate place.
JENNY BROCKIE: That's a very good note to end on. We are out of time, I'm sorry. I would like to thank everybody for taking part tonight. It's been very interesting. Thank you very much.
