Poll: do you believe in god?

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Thread: Does God exist?

  1. #12501
    Psychic refugee KFunk's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enteebee View Post
    also wittgenstein is a bitch to resolve... at least for me. I get the feeling to have any sort of proper engagement I'd need to understand a lot more about language.
    Agreed. A solid grounding in logic would probably help too (syntax, semantics, metalanguage[s], the philosophy of Frege). It's a killer problem.
    Philosophy(hons)/Medicine @ UNSW - entering 5th year - "The Nothing itself nothings." (ex pumice aquam)

  2. #12502
    Psychic refugee KFunk's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie182 View Post
    For interest, budding philosophers of BOS, someone give me an objective moral truth
    There are no moral truths, this one excepted if you class it as such.
    Philosophy(hons)/Medicine @ UNSW - entering 5th year - "The Nothing itself nothings." (ex pumice aquam)

  3. #12503
    Individui Superiore Cookie182's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enteebee View Post
    The morality of X is subjective.

    i.e. The morality of killing your mother is subjective, this is an objective moral truth.
    Perhaps I should have said- someone give me an objective normative ethic?

    What your saying is yes true- but it is a factual statement as opposed to a moral statement- like if i substitute your saying:

    It is moral to believe that the morality of X is subjective?

  4. #12504
    Psychic refugee KFunk's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie182 View Post
    Perhaps I should have said- someone give me an objective normative ethic?
    In which case, Mu.
    Philosophy(hons)/Medicine @ UNSW - entering 5th year - "The Nothing itself nothings." (ex pumice aquam)

  5. #12505
    Individui Superiore Cookie182's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
    In which case, Mu.
    Quoting Pirsig: "For example, it's stated over and over again that computer circuits exhibit only two states, a voltage for "one" and a voltage for "zero". That's silly! Any computer-electronics technician knows otherwise. Try to find a voltage representing one or zero when the power is off! The circuits are in a mu-state."

    lol nice, perhaps I should "unask the question"?

    Edit: Any correlation to/inspiration for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mew_(Pok%C3%A9mon) haha

  6. #12506
    Keepers of the flames Enteebee's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Is holding a position that something is neither moral nor immoral (i.e. amoral) a normative ethical position?

  7. #12507
    Cadet UndeadSamurai01's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Being fully atheist also requires faith - but many atheists will actually admit that they are agnostic - which is easier to prove seeing as there is no way to prove or disprove god's existence - barring god himself coming down here to sort it out. It is possible to say however that the existence of god is very unlikely - (ie. Richard Dawkins Flying Spaghetti Monster).

    I have been on both sides of the divide, at first I was fully Christian, but then I got disillusioned and went full atheist - but upon reasoning it out I always come back to on the agnostic side, but closer to atheism than theism.

    So knock yourselves out but neither side can have a total victory. Atheists can't disprove the existence of god but neither can theists prove that he does.


    • If we are to envision an omniscient omnipotent god that dosn't want us to know about him/her then we wont know about him/her it's just that simple.
    • If we discount historical evidence and focus only on the philosophy then god is just as likely as the flying spaghetti monster.
    • If historical evidence (of which there is a significant amount which is very well supported) is taken into account then god becomes far more likely than the flying spaghetti monster.
    • Christianity has many self-contradictions which prevent me from becoming a Christian and although I am not as familiar with other religions I have become aware in my studies of examples of this in other religions.
    • The old testament is especially troublesome - but even if we focus on the gospels the contradictions and logical falicies are there (the most obvious being that if god is all-powerful then it would have in his 'power' to fogive our sins without sacrificing his son)
    • Philosophically the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god creates many problems (eg. if god knows the future then how can the future change, and if the future can't change then how can we have free will?)
    • While some will say that phisics disproves god this is a logical falicy - physisists will freely admit that we know amost nothing about the universe and also if god existed then we would only what he alowed us to learn (re: his omnipotence)
    • If god is beyond our understanding - as many will claim (and it is likely that an omnipotent, omnicient being would be) then to try and understand him in order to determine his existance is impossible.
    • Although many claim that they have seen/heard/experienced god - there are people from every religion on earth who claim that - making these useless for determining the existance of any one god and indeed any god at all. They are also easy to explain as the human mind is more than capable of showing someone somthing they really want to see (hasn't anyone had a fantasy before? No-one thinks they're real).
    • Many will claim that god told them about things before they happened - and on the surface it looks like good evidence - until you notice how many people are saying that god told them the end of the world was comming in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2008 and any other year you care to name (including 2009 so I guess we'll see).
    • People claim that their prayers have been answered but the sheer number of prayers and the probability of each one happening mean that it is too unlikely that none will be answered
    Last edited by UndeadSamurai01; 21 Mar 2009 at 10:58 PM.
    "I'm a authoritarian liberitarian - People should be forced to be free whether they like it or not."

  8. #12508
    Passive-aggressive Mod Kwayera's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by katie tully View Post
    Just so you know, the reason the chair doesn't fall apart on you is because God is the chair.
    When we reach the city.


  9. #12509
    Individui Superiore Cookie182's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    I have to go

    God bless

  10. #12510
    Psychic refugee KFunk's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enteebee View Post
    Is holding a position that something is neither moral nor immoral (i.e. amoral) a normative ethical position?
    You ought not worry about it. (Properly speaking: no)
    Philosophy(hons)/Medicine @ UNSW - entering 5th year - "The Nothing itself nothings." (ex pumice aquam)

  11. #12511
    Senior Member Tangent's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    how can u have objectives moral if morality is dependent on the person, therefore making it subjective

    please correct me if im wrong

  12. #12512
    Individui Superiore Cookie182's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    YouTube - Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

    really, really needs critiquing

    lets use these arguments for now on as a basis of debate

  13. #12513
    Horse liberty Graney's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie182 View Post
    For interest, budding philosophers of BOS, someone give me an objective moral truth
    I have a feeling, a vibe, that the existence of life might be inherently good.

    If we accept the idea of life existing at all, anywhere, ever, in any instance, being inherently a good thing, then you must accept a whole range of truths, and take on a lot of moral certainties from that.

    If the existence of life at one moment is a good thing, then it is a good thing to sustain the existence of life as much as possible. Wherefore, we must do everything possible to acheive and maintain a sustainable existence for life on earth. This does not mean a volume or quantity of life is good, but rather the quality, diversity and continuity of the system. Volume, as the catholics are fond of, may be contrary to sustainability.

    Environmental ethics I believe in wholeheartedly. I find it hard to conceive and rationalise how it would be insignificant, irrelevant if life were to never have existed on earth. It goes against the being.

    Perhaps i'm just being viverecentric.

  14. #12514
    Banned big8oyjames's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie182 View Post
    YouTube - Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

    really, really needs critiquing

    lets use these arguments for now on as a basis of debate
    my cousins in Pakistan tried to push his propaganda down my throat when they realized my faith wasnt as strong as theirs. His arguments are totally laughable, but in saying that, he has a VERY strong hold in the lower- middle class demographics all over they sub continent. some see him as a semi prophet.

    bloody joke.

  15. #12515
    Ecclesiastical Die-Hard Iron's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.












    -
    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

  16. #12516
    Learn to science. moll.'s Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by forks View Post
    love this discussion!!

    But here's a small question directed at atheists:doesn't it take faith to be an atheist? It seems that faith is derided by most atheists, but it takes faith to believe that all that is real can be fully perceived and known by humans. Unless you acknowledge that there could be some higher spiritual reality, I don't see how it can't be faith to be assured in oneself without proof.
    I'm not trying to insult atheists, I just wanna see what their take on this would be.
    It should also be noted (and hasn't been) that if indeed an atheist turns out to be wrong, and there is a god/s and an alternately good or bad afterlife, then we have no problem with this. If indeed he truly is a kind and benevolent deity then he will understand our reasoning, and will only judge us upon our actions in life, which will be no more immoral or 'evil' than any theists actions.
    If however, he decides that, because we used our deductive reasoning to conclude his existance doubtful, we deserve an eternity in Hell, then this is a choice that many atheists are not fazed by. Hell is predominately described as a place without god's influence and love. All of the fire, brimstone and eternal torture comes second to this primary condition of it's existance. An atheist will have no problem spending eternity in such a condition however, as it is merely an extension of our previously physical existance.
    MEcon @ UNSW I

  17. #12517
    Senior Member Tangent's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    YouTube - Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

    when he is refering the the references about water and its physical changes, what do those passages actually say. i just laughed cuz he was rattling passage numbers off his head and everyone started clapping, like he justified his answer by making a list but not giving any evidence

  18. #12518
    Cadet UndeadSamurai01's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by moll. View Post
    It should also be noted (and hasn't been) that if indeed an atheist turns out to be wrong, and there is a god/s and an alternately good or bad afterlife, then we have no problem with this. If indeed he truly is a kind and benevolent deity then he will understand our reasoning, and will only judge us upon our actions in life, which will be no more immoral or 'evil' than any theists actions.
    If however, he decides that, because we used our deductive reasoning to conclude his existence doubtful, we deserve an eternity in Hell, then this is a choice that many atheists are not fazed by. Hell is predominately described as a place without god's influence and love. All of the fire, brimstone and eternal torture comes second to this primary condition of it's existence. An atheist will have no problem spending eternity in such a condition however, as it is merely an extension of our previously physical existence.
    You can't believe something just because you think one position is better than the other. If someone pays you $1,000,000 to believe that the sky is green you can pretend to believe it to get the $1,000,000 but you can't truly believe it because you have no evidence that it is and strong evidence that it is not. This wouldn't work with a god. If there were a god he would know that you were pretending and you would go to hell anyway because you do not truly believe.

    You can't just decide to believe something - it doesn't work that way. Just because you want to believe something doesn't mean you will be able to convince yourself that it's true.

    It is better to stay focused on what you do believe and not what is better to believe or what you want to believe.
    "I'm a authoritarian liberitarian - People should be forced to be free whether they like it or not."

  19. #12519
    Individui Superiore Cookie182's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by UndeadSamurai01 View Post
    You can't believe something just because you think one position is better than the other. If someone pays you $1,000,000 to believe that the sky is green you can pretend to believe it to get the $1,000,000 but you can't truly believe it because you have no evidence that it is and strong evidence that it is not. This wouldn't work with a god. If there were a god he would know that you were pretending and you would go to hell anyway because you do not truly believe.

    You can't just decide to believe something - it doesn't work that way. Just because you want to believe something doesn't mean you will be able to convince yourself that it's true.

    It is better to stay focused on what you do believe and not what is better to believe or what you want to believe.
    Exactly. Growing up I often tried to take on a variety of theistic thoughts- but my mind overall just will not let me except such thoughts as belief. You can not force yourself to. Also, if God is true and obviously he then creates these thoughts for us and has wired us in that way- then it is his fault we don't "believe". If he was to punish us for his doing, what does that say about God?

    Additionally, just lol at that video- the guy says Islam has never contradicted itself on anything or to name one example of Islam against humanity. By knowing every passage and quoting them as blind 'evidence' it is reasonable to conclude that he takes the Qu'ran literally. Therefore he must certainly accept that everything in the Qu'ran needs to be upheld. Philosopher's have long thought that one of the greatest gifts a human being can have is autonomy- in fact, denying such a thing is certainly by the best definition possible, a grave harm to humanity. Let's ask the good Dr then- What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?

  20. #12520
    Cadet UndeadSamurai01's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie182 View Post
    Also, if God is true and obviously he then creates these thoughts for us and has wired us in that way- then it is his fault we don't "believe". If he was to punish us for his doing, what does that say about God?
    Totally. I had that exact same thought and I end up in this position where I wonder whether god is evil. I mean no-one can prove he isn't any more than you can prove that he does/doesn't exist. Because he is all-powerful there would be no way for us to tell if he was lying. A preacher once told me that we can't understand his motives, but that seems like more of a reason to distrust him rather than believe him.

    If god were evil or even just no entirely good it would forever end the debate about why he allows suffering and why appears so immoral in the old testament.

    P.S. to any theists out there I don't actually think god is evil - because even god can't be evil without existing.
    "I'm a authoritarian liberitarian - People should be forced to be free whether they like it or not."

  21. #12521
    Senior Member Tangent's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    some jehovah's witnesses came to my door a couple of months ago, telling me that it was all the non-believers fault that there was violence and war etc., and that god was suffering with us. They gave me a pamphlet (the one for the non believer) that said god will soon rid the land of all the evil ones. it made good bin lining.
    nothing like god threatening to kill me on a sunday afternoon
    Last edited by Tangent; 20 Mar 2009 at 9:29 PM. Reason: spelling mistakes, as usual.. thought it said i misspelt sunday

  22. #12522
    Senior Member greekgun's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
    some jehovah's witnesses came to my door a couple of months ago, telling me that it was all the non-believers fault that there was violence and war etc., and that god was suffering with us. They gave me a pamphlet (the one for the non believer) that said god will soon rid the land of all the evil ones. it made good bin lining.
    nothing like god threatening to kill me on a sunday afternoon
    Jehovahs witnesses piss me off so much. If people are interested in their religion, then people will go seek them out. I dont want to be woken up 9:00am on a satatday morning only to slam the door in their faces when i say "sorry im not really religous" to which the reply "oh ok...have fun in hell".

  23. #12523
    i am number -e^i*pi tommykins's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by greekgun View Post
    Jehovahs witnesses piss me off so much. If people are interested in their religion, then people will go seek them out. I dont want to be woken up 9:00am on a satatday morning only to slam the door in their faces when i say "sorry im not really religous" to which the reply "oh ok...have fun in hell".
    if they said that to me i'd seriously have a massive debate with them.
    B Civ. Eng. (Structural) III @ UNSW

  24. #12524
    Senior Member Tangent's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    to which they would say ok politely, had u a pamphlet and move onto the next house

  25. #12525
    i am number -e^i*pi tommykins's Avatar
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    Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
    to which they would say ok politely, had u a pamphlet and move onto the next house
    ohhh ill give them a mouthful if thats the case
    B Civ. Eng. (Structural) III @ UNSW

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