DNA pioneer says black people less intelligent than whites (1 Viewer)

[chicky_pie]

ONE of the world's most honoured scientists has been attacked in Britain after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people.
One of the Nobel Prize winners behind the discovery of the structure of DNA, 79-year-old James Watson, has had at least one talk cancelled by organisers shocked at the claim.

Earlier this week, Dr Watson told The Sunday Times that he was pessimistic about efforts to raise the standard of living in Africa.

“All our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really,” Dr Watson told the newspaper.

He also said that it would be great if everyone was equal, but “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.

The BBC has reported that the British Science Museum has pulled the plug on a scheduled talk to be given by the US geneticist because of the comments.

A spokesman for the museum told the BBC that Dr Watson took things too far in the interview.

"We know that eminent scientists can sometimes say things that cause controversy and the Science Museum does not shy away from debating controversial topics,” the spokesman said.


“However, we feel Dr Watson has gone beyond the point of acceptable debate and we are as a result cancelling his talk.”

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22608906-2,00.html

 

[Silver Persian]

I'd be interested to see what research he is referring to. My initial response to this article is:

1) I'm not convinced that intelligence is a biological category that individuals are either genetically gifted with, or not. If black people are consistently receiving low scores in tests or whatever, I'd suggest that this has resulted from their socialisation rather than their biology.
2) I'm also not sure that intelligence is a single entity that can be quantified and ranked. To my view, there are different types of intelligence that become relevant depending upon the context the individual is placed in. eg. Im good at writing essays, competent at mathematics, poor at science and ridiculously awful at putting together IKEA furniture
3) I'd be very interested as to what he thinks the social policy implications of the alleged lesser intelligence of black people should be. Should the west be paternalistic and do what is in the best interest of Africans? Or should the west write them off as lesser humans, and not worth the effort?...

 

[Serius]

I dont really like it when scientists spark all this "outrage" just for saying something thats controversial. Then they indirectly get silenced by corporations pulling the plug on their research and stuff like that.

If its good science and he has the research to back it up, then its a valid scientific claim and no one should try and undermine science just because its not politically correct and some people are offended by it. The guy is a Nobel prize winner, he should at least be given some respect so that he has the opportunity to back up his claims instead of just canceling his talks.

If its found its just racist babel with no real scientific basis, then throw all the rotten tomatoes you want

 

[Graney]

presumably there are journal articles to back up his claims?

 

[Serius]

I have no idea, if what he is saying is true then it must be pretty new science. Everything i have learned previously says that there is a large IQ gap between blacks and whites in america, but that it was to do with availability to information rather than any sort of inherent fault in black genes. They found this out because when the two groups were given access to previously unseen information and then tested on it later there wasn't a racial gap in intelligence.

So either its some new stuff i haven't heard of, or he is referring to some very old research that was just like "SEE! theres an IQ difference! blacks are clearly inferior to whites!" If he is talking about the later, then clearly he is a pit of a prejudiced old fool and maybe he should sit back in a retirement home and leave the real science to those young enough to understand modern concepts like racial equality.

 

[_dhj_]

I'm not sure if the reaction to the claim is a product of political correctness or of the paternalistic implications. But intelligence seems to be a particularly sensitive area to differentiate races on, for whatever reason. If one claimed (and I would suggest quite reasonably) that Africans are better endowed (if you know what I mean) than whites, or that Africans have superior bone structures allowing them to, among other things, run faster than whites, the claim would not be as controversial.

 

[jimmayyy]

i love how great minds always end up racist/anti semitic

 

[sam04u]

I'm not sure if the reaction to the claim is a product of political correctness or of the paternalistic implications. But intelligence seems to be a particularly sensitive area to differentiate races on, for whatever reason. If one claimed (and I would suggest quite reasonably) that Africans are better endowed (if you know what I mean) than whites, or that Africans have superior bone structures allowing them to, among other things, run faster than whites, the claim would not be as controversial.

Actually it should be equally as controversial. It's against Australian/British law to perpetuate racial discrimination. Which is in effect what Watson has done by claiming that 'Black' people are less intelligent.

Comm. Law Racial Discrimination Act '75

Article 4
States Parties condemn all propaganda and all organizations which are based on ideas or theories of superiority of one race or group of persons of one colour or ethnic origin, or which attempt to justify or promote racial hatred and discrimination in any form, and undertake to adopt immediate and positive measures designed to eradicate all incitement to, or acts of, such discrimination and, to this end, with due regard to the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the rights expressly set forth in article 5 of this Convention, inter alia:

U.K has a similar law for inciting racial division or hatred. Basically, he commited a crime.

i love how great minds always end up racist/anti semitic

I love how just about anyone can be accused of being anti semitic.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

You didn't notice the slash?

---

If it's true then it's true I suppose. It would have been cool to see some facts rather than hearsay though...

 

[jimmayyy]

I love how just about anyone can be accused of being anti semitic.

im not sure what you mean by that? i was just saying that great minds who contribute amazing things to society seem to fall down somewhere when it comes to jews etc , eg walt whitman, roald dahl, walt disney, bobby fischer

 

[sam04u]

im not sure what you mean by that? i was just saying that great minds who contribute amazing things to society seem to fall down somewhere when it comes to jews etc , eg walt whitman, roald dahl, walt disney, bobby fischer

I just mean that the term antisemitism is thrown around so often that it's lost almost all of its meaning. Even Orthodox Jews are called antisemites these days. Which really proves that the word has lost any meaning whatsoever.

 

[Serius]

Actually it should be equally as controversial. It's against Australian/British law to perpetuate racial discrimination. Which is in effect what Watson has done by claiming that 'Black' people are less intelligent.

Comm. Law Racial Discrimination Act '75



U.K has a similar law for inciting racial division or hatred. Basically, he commited a crime.


I love how just about anyone can be accused of being anti semitic.

He wasn't talking about racial superiority or trying to promote racial hatred, he was merely stating his view as a scientist and supporting scientific evidence that states those with negroid codons in their DNA [i.e "blacks"] on average have certain disadvantages to learning that explain the IQ gap between Caucasians and Negroids

Basically he supports a biological explanation for the IQ gap [ the existence of the IQ gap is a scientific fact, not a matter of opinion] rather than a social-ecconomic one.

In short the nobel prize winner said " Whites are smarter than Blacks" now if your basis of intelligence is purely on IQ, then this is a valid, non-racist statement. the IQ test is a prettty reasonable and cheap way to measure intelligence, but it does leave a lot of things out and it also makes cultural assumptions.



I think we stand to lose a lot if we fail to do certain research or discuss results of research simply because some minority groups find what we have to say offensive. Some things we find out with science sucks but hey, science is about finding the truth not making the world a fair place. If you get pissed off about the fact that you are an asian will a small penis, blame god, not the scientists who released information about average penis sizes.

 

[sam04u]

He wasn't talking about racial superiority or trying to promote racial hatred

Claiming that people with white skin are more intelligent than people with dark skin, is perpetuating a lie that white people are superior to black people. It's as simple as that. Lets assume somebody bought into that lie they would effectively become racist, or in some way be discriminatory to black people.

Basically, these types of theory/propoganda of white supremacy promotes racial hatred.

supporting scientific evidence

What scientific evidence?

[i.e "blacks"] on average have certain disadvantages to learning

What scientific evidence supports this?

[the existence of the IQ gap is a scientific fact, not a matter of opinion] rather than a social-ecconomic one.

Untrue, the IQ gap is a result of the socio-economic condition as well as certain cultural differences which have been inherited by 'blacks'

science is about finding the truth

Lets do that before you continue babbling on with your assumptions. Provide me with this evidence that you have suggested exists. One that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Whites have a genetic advantage in intelligence to Blacks.

 

[jimmayyy]

way to misconstrue this entire thread, man

also, isn't there similar evidence that says asians are smarter than whites?

OMFG RACIAL HATREDZ!

 

[Serius]

Claiming that people with white skin are more intelligent than people with dark skin, is perpetuating a lie that white people are superior to black people. It's as simple as that. Lets assume somebody bought into that lie they would effectively become racist, or in some way be discriminatory to black people.

Basically, these types of theory/propoganda of white supremacy promotes racial hatred.


What scientific evidence?


What scientific evidence supports this?


Untrue, the IQ gap is a result of the socio-economic condition as well as certain cultural differences which have been inherited by 'blacks'


Lets do that before you continue babbling on with your assumptions. Provide me with this evidence that you have suggested exists. One that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Whites have a genetic advantage in intelligence to Blacks.

You just said that its a lie straight up, he was laying claim to fact that is real. He said whites are smarter than blacks, if he judges intelligence based on IQ than this is true. Science isnt about white supremacy or about any other sort of political agenda.

What scientific evidence? you are a uni student! you have access to databases, look it up fucktard, i did.

Untrue, the IQ gap is a result of the socio-economic condition as well as certain cultural differences which have been inherited by 'blacks'

There is evidence to support this, however it could also be argued that certain genes make you more likely to be poor and not give a shit about bettering your life[i.e motivation, ambition] or make you interested in academia.

Lets do that before you continue babbling on with your assumptions. Provide me with this evidence that you have suggested exists. One that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Whites have a genetic advantage in intelligence to Blacks.

I cant prove beyond a reasonable doubt, thats why its a controversial debate. However, you likewise cant prove beyond reasonable doubt that it isnt true also. Hence the stalemate.

Really i dont think whites are some how inherently smarter than blacks, it just goes to show that Dr Watson has a valid scientific leg to stand on, and whenever that is the case it cannot be claimed he is preaching from a racist standpoint. Science isnt racist.
I would much prefer to do research to prove him wrong rather than shout and scream and be outraged and try to censor him or punish him under your bullshit law.

 

[wrxsti]

I cant prove beyond a reasonable doubt, thats why its a controversial debate. However, you likewise cant prove beyond reasonable doubt that it isnt true also. Hence the stalemate.

well....... Thats a pretty flawed logic

 

[Graney]

What scientific evidence? you are a uni student! you have access to databases, look it up fucktard, i did.

I assumed Dr Watson was just being a dick, but it turns out there is a body of scientific evidence supporting this.

African IQ and mental retardation



Abstract

Rushton and Jensen (2005), in an extensive review of racial differences in intelligence test scores, assert that some part of the difference between blacks and whites in mean intelligence (IQ) scores is genetic in origin. They cite earlier reviews by Lynn (1991) and by Lynn and Vanhanen (2002), as well as several more recent studies, which are said to indicate that the mean IQ of sub-Saharan black Africans is about 70 - at the borderline of mental retardation. The present article reviews critically both the original studies and the ways in which the reviewers have described the findings of the studies. © Psychological Society of South Africa. All rights reierved.


​

Kamin, L.J.
African IQ and mental retardation
(2006) South African Journal of Psychology, 36 (1), pp. 1-9.

Shamefull the way he's been treated then.

 

[Serius]

well....... Thats a pretty flawed logic

Not really, its the basis of most controversial scientific debates. Probably also why they are so massive. When theres evidence that supports both viewpoints then the argument could go either way. Someone did some sloppy research or wasnt used in a valid way, whatever. The thing is you cant get up Dr Watson for his viewpoint when he has scientific evidence to back it up.

Its not the most tasteful of debates to ever have and i would [sadly] be kicked out of uni if i ever said anything about it[which is a good look at how political correctness is taking over even academia ] but its a valid debate to have.

 

[sam04u]

In an extensive review of racial differences in intelligence test scores, assert that some part of the difference between blacks and whites in mean intelligence (IQ) scores is genetic in origin.

Graney, did you even bother to read the flawed logic which the journal proposed? How does the 'mean' intelligence in a sub region, correlate to a genetic difference in intelligence?

How do these intelligence test scores prove that the difference in IQ's are genetic? The brain develops and is able to better recognise spatial and mathematical patterns through constant strenuous mental activity during adolescence.

Basically, in the sub saharan african culture, adolescents are not challenged in quite the same way as a suburban white person would be. Are you suggesting that there is a genetic difference in farmers and say shelf packers? (Even though the two might be barely genetically differentiable.)

Now, regardless of the fact that these claims are fallacious. It's against Australian law under Article 4 of the Racial Discrimination Act, to perpetuate theories of racial superiority.

 

[Graney]

Graney, did you even bother to read the flawed logic which the journal proposed? How does the 'mean' intelligence in a sub region, correlate to a genetic difference in intelligence?

Fcuked if I know. I'm not a psych student, so if I was to read the article it would be over my head.

Suffice to say, as a peer reviewed article, it can only contain empirical and statistically valid data. That's as real as science can be.

You can't reject a journal article just because it disagrees with your predjudices.

How do these intelligence test scores prove that the difference in IQ's are genetic?

It's not just some nutjob, it's a peer reviewed article. It's modern and scientifically valid. Whereas you're just sprouting you're bullshit opinions.

Basically, in the sub saharan african culture, adolescents are not challenged in quite the same way as a suburban white person would be.

To quote the abstract- "assert that some part of the difference between blacks and whites in mean intelligence (IQ) scores is genetic in origin"

They're not denying the effect of environment on intelligence. But they obviously found that the difference in intelligence levels is greater than should be statistically accounted for due to environmental reasons.

It's against Australian law under Article 4 of the Racial Discrimination Act, to perpetuate theories of racial superiority.

The law is retarded. Free speech ftw.