Poll: Is there hope without a god?

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  1. #26
    Junior Member Red_of_Head's Avatar
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh View Post
    And yes there have been small negligible changes but not to a large extent to consider it a reformation. The only Catholic reformation was Protestantism which later on became a sect of its own independent of Catholicism. The Reformation movement ended being really violent cause and claimed the lives of 5-15 million Europeans.
    Why are you comparing reform of a religion to reform of a denomination?

    What would you have liked to see Catholicism change?

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    Senior Member Simorgh's Avatar
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_of_Head View Post
    1. Why are you comparing reform of a religion to reform of a denomination?

    2. What would you have liked to see Catholicism change?
    1.Where did I do that in this thread? A religion like that of Christianity and Islam is quite vast and there are lot of big differences amongst the sects let alone the similarities. Yes I agree its not good to compare sects with whole other entire religion, but what can you do when we have people like Orwell and others are doing this in their many posts? They don't see their underlying hypocrisy, when I see them do this I catch them and ask the hard questions.

    2. I don't hold any view or opinion in this regard.
    Last edited by Simorgh; 24 Jun 2016 at 10:21 PM.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh View Post
    1.Where did I do that in this thread? A religion like that of Christianity and Islam is quite vast and there are lot of big differences amongst the sects let alone the similarities. Yes I agree its not good to compare sects with whole other entire religion, but what can you do when we have people like Orwell and others are doing this in their many posts? They don't see their underlying hypocrisy, when I see them do this I catch them and ask the hard questions.
    May have misread you, but this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh
    Funny how you argue for other religions to reform in your many posts, whereas Catholicism hasn't faced any reformation in the many centuries?
    sounds like we're comparing reform of Catholicism to reforms of religions, when Christianity has reformed. Not that I necessarily disagree with you or want to start a shitfight, it just seems like you may be undermining yourself.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh View Post
    And yes there have been small negligible changes but not to a large extent to consider it a reformation. The only Catholic reformation was Protestantism which later on became a sect of its own independent of Catholicism. The Reformation movement ended being really violent cause and claimed the lives of 5-15 million Europeans.
    yes I think most people agree that every religion has it violent strains; even within Protestanism; I was more so addressing your assumption.

    I personally think that most religions have undergone "reform"; and by reform it means a return to its original teachings. Now for some religions, as some have argued on this forum before, even myself; that is not what is needed, because the original teachings are not considered "desirable" (then again mainstream Christianity, isn't exactly desirable in the average secular person's mind; just look at the various lobby groups, FB groups/chats).

    In some cases Christians by their very own teachings implies that internal (and external) "reform" of both practice and individual conduct (Christians call this latter thing sanctification, if you want a technical term); the latter being an outworking of genuine faith and belief in God, the former being applied to a larger group of believers for instance. And other religions may have similar ideas on this idea.

    I will comment that the biggest issues have happened more so due to politics and religion getting mixed; not saying that religious people shouldn't be involved in politics; or that religion doesn't have a place in public, it certainly does; but it becomes a bit concerning, if the politician says, we are doing this in the name of God; and then when you examine their actions; you ask the question, what God do they really believe in; it does a massive disservice; hence why I would argue that the way that some "Christian parties" approach certain issues, really don't make a good name for the beliefs, and the God they hold to.

    I know many Christians who are as vocal on this, even amongst conservative folks (I am not how conservative I really am though by whose standards I guess?)

    The same applies for Islam, in "Islamic countries", where sharia is the law of the land.

    Back to the topic, does God provide hope? Yes, but it really depends on what God; if it is a puny small rain fertility god, then I would say no; but if it is all-powerful God that hates your guts, I would also say no. So you can only really find hope in God, if he is powerful (able to do things), and loving (somewhat willing to do good things, although the definition is more complex than that). The question that remains, if God is able to do things and willing to do good things, why doesn't he end suffering? There are religions that provide different answers to that, but one of the reasons I am at the position, I am at, is because of its definite answer in providing hope in answering that question.

    Is it possibly naive? Maybe? Will I really know? Is a emotional/spiritual crutch? What assumption would one suggest if they made that objection?
    Last edited by dan964; 25 Jun 2016 at 11:09 PM.
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh View Post
    1.Where did I do that in this thread? A religion like that of Christianity and Islam is quite vast and there are lot of big differences amongst the sects let alone the similarities. Yes I agree its not good to compare sects with whole other entire religion, but what can you do when we have people like Orwell and others are doing this in their many posts? They don't see their underlying hypocrisy, when I see them do this I catch them and ask the hard questions.

    2. I don't hold any view or opinion in this regard.
    it may be vast, indeed. Catholicism I will say, even then has reformed; maybe not the reform, people like you are looking for; but there is always a need for reform. I personally disagree with Orwell, that Islam needs reform, but that will really come down to what original/pure Islam is; since this is not something that I have seen in this thread agreed on, I won't make any further comment on that matter.

    I personally agree that within Catholicism, there is need for change in certain matters.

    I will comment that Protestanism is now a very broader banner though, it covers apparently everything from whatever Joel Osteen teaches to Westboro; it is a wide spectrum; I think it personally shows that human efforts to reform, are pretty dismal. I think one has to only conclude, that religious people aren't much better than the non-religious, in terms of that matter.

    Just to veer a bit closer to topic, since we have deviated (sorry for that).
    The question of the thread really comes down to hope, and I think that is one way, to distinguish between the religious and the non-religious (although it isn't the only)
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh View Post
    I know all this! But was I talking about Protestantism which is definitely reformed and branched out of Catholicism so not relevant? When talking purely about Catholicism its hasn't been reformed to that extent.

    The rest is me not agreeing with Orwell, for instance his perceived hypocrisy and internalised racism.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Thanks for all your replies its really interesting hearing peoples perspectives on hope and religion how they interconect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comensite View Post
    dw ignore the cuck, he just tries to make his version of "Islam" better when its all the same shit
    Quote Originally Posted by Simorgh View Post
    I don't speak for Islam or Muslims. Neither do I wish to.

    Yes its all the same 'shit'.
    Can we please try to be respectful to other religions even if you dont believe in them or agree with the person who is saying things about them !!!
    Thank you

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    There is no hope, with or without "God"
    Are you then saying that there is no hope at all?
    Without hope what is it that drives you? how are you able to look to the future and say hey its gonna be ok? Is it possible to live with no hope. Is it not true that Humanity needs hope because as soon as there is no hope there is no will to live?

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by dan964 View Post
    there is a thread for that, note
    Does God exist?
    Hey there! yeah I had seen that thread and I was quite intrigued but some of the discussion got a bit out of hand. And this thread is different as it refers to more specifically the link between religion and hope not just the existance of god which undoubtedly would appear here as it has to do with religion. Maybe I havent phrased myself properly but I appreciate your help with finding the link! It was very thoughtful of you. <3

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Also I would love to hear the opinions of an atheist or angnostic(ist) [IDK is that how you say it ...]
    Where is your hope found? Is there hope?

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeTasselBluebird View Post
    Also I would love to hear the opinions of an atheist or angnostic(ist) [IDK is that how you say it ...]
    Where is your hope found? Is there hope?
    The only hope lies in the constant struggle between the selfish "rational" side of humanity and the "irrational" piece of decency that is inside of every one of us.

    I hope the latter wins. Forever.
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoxica View Post
    The only hope lies in the constant struggle between the selfish "rational" side of humanity and the "irrational" piece of decency that is inside of every one of us.

    I hope the latter wins. Forever.
    Thats an interesting perspective! Does this provide a hope for the future of yourself or for humanity or does it create only little hope for you?

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeTasselBluebird View Post
    Thats an interesting perspective! Does this provide a hope for the future of yourself or for humanity or does it create only little hope for you?
    It gets me through the daily struggle of my mundane existence but sometimes it does not suffice.
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    Just so we don't have this discussion in the future, my definition of the natural numbers includes 0.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by i1337 View Post
    Hope is not the right word. I'm not sure hope means what you think it means. Hope for what?
    This depends on how you define "hope",
    hope is something that drives you and gives you confidence for the future because you know that what you are hoping in will prevail, hope is to trust that good will happen and be certain that what you hope will prove true and have a confident expectation of something. (Obviously there are other versions of hope most people today see hope as a wishy washy maybe or a kind of unsure optimism to wish for, to expect, but without certainty of the fulfillment; to desire very much, but with no real assurance of getting your desire... i.e. I hope that I locked the door or I hope that the food tastes good tonight. etc. this is just as the word peer means both people of your own age / status and to look / squint at something, and the word pole means a cylindrical stick and is also used to denote input and output points of a magnet or electrical device. These type of words are known as Homonyms)
    I want to see what your views on this are, does hope have to rest in god/s? For the religious maybe so, for the not so religious probably not. For Christians, hope lies in the knowledge that the messiah will return to claim them as his own and finish the process of salvation and the restoration of the world, For Jews, hope lies in the knowledge that the messiah is to come and fulfil the prophesies written in the tanakh in the future.
    Where does your hope lie? What is your hope for?
    Is your hope an internal thing that is for you as a person only or is it for the future of humanity or for society or... (you finish the sentence )

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by i1337 View Post
    That's not what hope means. Hope is the feeling or desire for a particular thing to happen, taken straight from the OED (Oxford English Dictionary).

    What **are** you hoping to prevail?

    "hope is to trust that good will happen" Hope is not to trust that good will happen. Hope is not an entity that you can trust. Hope just refers to a desire that a particular specific thing will happen. You can hope that some specific *thing* will happen, which may be objectively just.

    "and be certain that what you hope will prove true and have a condfident expectation of something"

    You can hope that your beliefs are true, but hope is not the desire for a belief to be true. Hope is not limited to beliefs, infact I argue it rarely is so.

    It seems to be you are talking about faith, not hope. You can hope that your faith is true, but you cannot have faith that your hopes are true. These are two different scenarios.

    I hope this post makes sense.
    Typically what you find with hope, is that isn't just particular things to happen, it is the desire for a particular best outcome, such as the world becoming better or utopia for an example (or equality).

    Faith and hope are interlinked, but certainly not interchangeable.
    Faith is more likened to trust.
    Hope is more so anticipation of a future positive event.

    Faith leads to one having hope in something: because I trust my friend, I hope that he will do this.
    ; and certain hope leads to faith.

    There is somewhat a requirement of evidence, knowing and experience (in the case of the religious, it is their religious text), in order to trust that the hope is certain (rather than being true).

    For instance, I'll use the perspective I am familiar with.
    Christians have hope because of the resurrection; that is certainty of the future of things for the best (new life) and that, which drives perseverance in faith.
    But perseverance in faith, also produces hope as well. As we continue to trust, one either loses out, or continues (persevering), see the effects of that trust resulting in the change, leading to the very thing hoped for.

    Just an example.
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by i1337 View Post
    That's not what hope means. Hope is the feeling or desire for a particular thing to happen, taken straight from the OED (Oxford English Dictionary).

    What **are** you hoping to prevail?

    "hope is to trust that good will happen" Hope is not to trust that good will happen. Hope is not an entity that you can trust. Hope just refers to a desire that a particular specific thing will happen. You can hope that some specific *thing* will happen, which may be objectively just.

    "and be certain that what you hope will prove true and have a condfident expectation of something"

    You can hope that your beliefs are true, but hope is not the desire for a belief to be true. Hope is not limited to beliefs, infact I argue it rarely is so.

    It seems to be you are talking about faith, not hope. You can hope that your faith is true, but you cannot have faith that your hopes are true. These are two different scenarios.

    I hope this post makes sense.
    Hi Im sorry if Ive confused you, as I said earlier hope can have different meanings not just the wishful thinking one you are saying that it means. If it helps you can answer using the word "faith" but that isn't really what I mean.
    Hope is hard to describe I did my best before but maybe I wasn't clear enough. dan964 seems to have a closer understanding of the hope I was talking of.
    i1337 likes this.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    It's funny how christians are so willing to redefine standard English words. I'm surprised they haven't tried to capitalise the word.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    God is dead and we have killed him.
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    God is dead and we have killed him.
    Time for celebration.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by braintic View Post
    Time for celebration.
    nah you guys have only replaced him; mind you humans make a very poor substitute of keeping the universe, let alone the Earth, in balance !!!!
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by braintic View Post
    It's funny how christians are so willing to redefine standard English words. I'm surprised they haven't tried to capitalise the Word.
    ah, no but your other arguments tend to be more convincing though.

    Faith comes from the latin fide, or the Greek pistis, same word the often "believe" is used (because unlike in Greek, faith doesn't have a verb). The Greek verb based on pistis (which is pisteuo) is actually closer but not quite to the word "trust" hence the difficulty. It is we modernists who reinterpret words such as faith, to mean superstitution. The word confidence literally means "with faith" or at least its route meaning. And this term, for Christians is often linked in with evidence and such. So I don't see any problem with the definition used by myself and other fellow Christians, we are only trying to be consistent linguists. Also we are also addressed a false strawman commonly perpetrated by those of non-theistic beliefs....


    here are the modern definitions of faith
    noun
    1.
    confidence or trust in a person or thing:
    faith in another's ability.

    2.
    belief that is not based on proof:
    He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

    I highlight this one, because this is the definition you are most likely using. Unfortunately while
    in the case of some religions it might cut it, in this discussion it doesn't (see below***). Hence I think either (1) or (6)/(7) more accurately describe the nature of the Christian faith...




    3.
    belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:
    the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

    4.
    belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
    to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

    5.
    a system of religious belief:
    the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

    6.
    the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:
    Failure to appear would be breaking faith.

    7.
    the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.:
    He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.



    A quick google search is sufficient...
    https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sour...0word%20pistis


    also to stir the pot, isn't the atheists the ones who redefine "nothing"? and then call that learning.
    I call that inconsistency.

    Also meaning of words change all the time, since the faith in question is several millenia old, it makes sense that Christians would be referring to an older definition. (some Christians prefer to use the word trust, but that is a personal opinion).

    ====
    ***So let us actually address what is really at hand then. The issue is not the existence of faith, trust or confidence; but what that trust is in. IT IS ONLY REALLY at this point then you claim that Christians have no evidence, but that requires a very SPECIFIC and narrow definition of evidence. This subtle difference is key.

    1.
    that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.


    2.
    something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:
    His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.

    3.
    Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.

    If we consider the 3rd definition and apply it to common events in the passion, then you see why Christians quantify certain things as evidence that you would reject on a given basis.
    Last edited by dan964; 14 Nov 2016 at 12:19 AM.
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    God is dead and we have killed him.
    love a good Nietsche, clearly he forgot all those die hard soccer fans; or better the singing shows !!!

    or if its Jesus, he'll should apparently back, eta 3 days or so. they tried killing him the first time !!!
    Last edited by dan964; 14 Nov 2016 at 12:23 AM.
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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    I love how tense these type of threads are ahahah

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drsoccerball View Post
    I love how tense these type of threads are ahahah
    Yep - PAST tense.

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    Re: Is there hope without a God?

    Quote Originally Posted by braintic View Post
    Yep - PAST tense.
    Funny guy

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