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  1. #51
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/3700...violent-clash/

    Definitely making a good image for the 'yes' vote
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Queenroot View Post
    tbh it's actually getting really annoying to see this shit plastered everywhere

    online, irl etc.

    I can't browse my damn newsfeed for funny memes because there's a fuc ton of shitty articles

    vote what u want and get over it
    Which is exactly why the government shouldn't have run a plebiscite on this or any other issue. We voted for a parliament, they should get it done. If it's a no in parliament, then fair enough. I just dont understand why a plebiscite was needed on this when there are a multitude of other issues of greater importance which the public would prefer a vote.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    i dont know why people are scared this could set a precedent of more surveys/plebiscites in the future though

    like whys that a bad thing
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    The elite did this...
    Wake up...
    Wake up goyim...
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmo 2 View Post
    i dont know why people are scared this could set a precedent of more surveys/plebiscites in the future though

    like whys that a bad thing
    It wont set a precedent - the government didn't do this because they wanted to gauge the communities opinion on an important issue. They did it to appease the Liberal far-right who know a plebiscite is their best chance of stopping gay marriage (which was a masterstroke). As much as I dislike the far-right, they have played this whole issue masterfully.

    Overall, rule by plebiscite is a bad idea because it reduces debate on complex issues to simple "Yes" or "No" propositions. It can also lead to a confusing mis-match of policies because the public is supportive of ideas which are inherently contradictory.
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    Senior Member Orwell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Nowhere is it stipulated that same-sex marriage is a Universal Human Right.

    Quoting the UDHR:

    1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

    2. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

    3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.


    I'm sorry but being homosexual is a biological defect. Our entire biological determinism is predicated on procreation and the continuation of the human race and so I find it baffling that people are trying to normalise relationships that defy such an evolutionary trait.

    Pikachu may have used an incorrect analogy but his logic isn't flawed. The more and more we normalise anomalous and degenerative behaviour, the farther we are plunged into total delinquency. From what I see, the Left-wing sympathisers of homosexuality are vocalising their opinion in loud, incoherent and cantankerous protest, vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with them along the way. Today it's same-sex marriage, tomorrow it will be group marriages, the day after that it will be bestial marriage. Nothing is sacred anymore, there is no more sanctimony in once-be revered institutions.

    Homosexuals keep stating they are marginalised and excluded from society but I don't want anyone who thinks taking children to same-sex advocacy events, where they propagate their agenda through unethical means, as an integrated member of any society of which I am apart of. Unfortunately, with time and political correctness, it's people like me, who have our heads screwed on straight, that will be excluded for our 'archaic' views.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    People irl and online who have the argument that "If people are so sick of hearing about gay marriage, maybe Australia should legalise it and then maybe you won't have to hear about it again" is so fucking stupid. Personally, I wouldn't want it to be legalised, why? Because once Australia passes more laws to recognising same sex relationships, they'll abuse their place in society and want more. They'll degraded society and Australia little by little and slowly. Example of this is with feminist. Not to long ago feminist wanted to change the crossing sign because Australia and it's society gave them a little bit of attention. Feminist were trying to cause problems out of nothing. This is what I mean when I said that "They'll abuse their place in society and want more. They'll degrade society and Australia little by little and slowly." People aren't even supporting gay's for the right reasons, they're only doing it because others are doing it, they're jumping on the band wagon. Gay's should just relax and shut the fuck up about their rights, Parliament knows that they'll abuse their place in society and want more thats why they aren't going to the full extent to legalise same sex marriages, gay's should be quiet be grateful with what Australia has given to them. Same sex marriage and relationships have been recognised through laws now just sit down and be quiet.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post

    I'm sorry but being homosexual is a biological defect. Our entire biological determinism is predicated on procreation and the continuation of the human race and so I find it baffling that people are trying to normalise relationships that defy such an evolutionary trait.
    The DSM V doesnt list it as a disorder, nor to any credible medical or psychological bodies. Do you have any proper justification for you view beyond this, or is this just your opinion? Even if I do concede your point that it is a "biological defect", that's not an excuse to justify your view. We dont discriminate against the disabled, or others with health issues.
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    Senior Member Orwell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by enoilgam View Post
    The DSM V doesnt list it as a disorder, nor to any credible medical or psychological bodies. Do you have any proper justification for you view beyond this, or is this just your opinion? Even if I do concede your point that it is a "biological defect", that's not an excuse to justify your view. We dont discriminate against the disabled, or others with health issues.
    That's exactly my point; we don't acknowledge it as a malady. We know that depression is unbearable, we know that being crippled is a severe handicap but as far homosexuality is concerned, it's normal.

    This is caustic because legitimising homosexuality and levelling it with heterosexuality could entail irreversible problems. We've already allowed homosexuals to adopt because it's the 'right thing to do', yet we do not consider the potential psychological ramifications this has on a child. We are not considering what they are being made witness to and the type of perception they have on certain societal structures.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    I'm sorry but being homosexual is a biological defect. Our entire biological determinism is predicated on procreation and the continuation of the human race and so I find it baffling that people are trying to normalise relationships that defy such an evolutionary trait.
    By your own reasoning, people who don't want to have kids are also suffering from some kind of biological defect or mental illness or both, and hence shouldn't be normalised. At that point, it would be ironic to simultaneously hold that view while also holding the username Orwell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    Pikachu may have used an incorrect analogy but his logic isn't flawed... Today it's same-sex marriage, tomorrow it will be group marriages, the day after that it will be bestial marriage. Nothing is sacred anymore, there is no more sanctimony in once-be revered institutions.
    Here you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    Unfortunately, with time and political correctness, it's people like me, who have our heads screwed on straight, that will be excluded for our 'archaic' views.
    .
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Overall, rule by plebiscite is a bad idea because it reduces debate on complex issues to simple "Yes" or "No" propositions.
    whys it worse for politicians to be saying yes/no though over regular ppl like u n me

    elements of direct democracy have worked fine in pretty much all the places they have been tried

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    we do not consider the potential psychological ramifications this has on a child.
    there are very likely none.

    this isnt bc gays are necessarily just as "good" as parents as heterosexual couples. its more bc the home environment asserts next to no lasting influences on an individual's psychological development. this is a very controversial and seemingly counter-intuitive statement but it has been corroborated extensively in observational research to the extent that it can be characterised as the "explosion without a bang" of modern behavioral science
    Last edited by cosmo 2; 17 Sep 2017 at 12:03 AM.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    One of the observations I made in this debate so far (other debates too but more so in this one than normal) is how quickly some people make the leap to generalise, especially when it confirms their own beliefs - even though it is not logically correct to do so.

    For example, a number of people have claimed that anyone who supports the 'No' vote is homophobic. In a similar vein, a number of people have also claimed that anyone who supports the 'Yes' vote are impeding on the free speech of anyone who disagrees with them.

    Um...newflash, not everyone who supports the 'No' vote is homophobic and not everyone who supports the 'Yes' vote is trying to shut up those who disagree with them. I daresay the majority of those on either side do not have those characteristics.

    Whilst there may be a handful of examples that support these statements, I fail to see how the actions of a small number of people can be generalised to the entire population of each side. It is not only logically incorrect to make such generalisations about the opposition, but it clearly shows the confirmation bias and cherry picking people are doing in this debate.
    Last edited by Trebla; 17 Sep 2017 at 12:09 AM.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    I was interested in this reply especially as it comes from a supposedly well educated person (an assumption I made based on your chosen subjects) and I'd just like to reply with some notes and maybe start a debate:

    1. This shouldn't be a matter of religion, as our government is meant to be keeping religion and state separate - this is a state issue, not a religious one. If it were, we wouldn't be having atheists getting married.

    This is absolutely correct and I stand for a secular society that can function morally and still uphold the traditional values that make up its foundation.

    2. Legalisation of same sex marriage will not even affect you unless you yourself are planning on entering a same sex marriage.

    I believe this assumption is incorrect. Firstly, the traditional values of parenthood and family will be threatened by schools who will promote homosexuality and the acceptance of homosexual relationships. Even as a non-religious person, I still wish for my children to uphold these traditional values however the fragility of children's minds will be taken advantage of and if they do not conform to this educational overhaul, they will be subject to bullying and discrimination. If you don't believe so, take a look at the horrendous behaviour of many of those who support gay marriage in response to people who do not agree with them. And gay marriage isn't even legal yet!

    3. Your point on freedom of speech

    I agree with some of what you say. In Australia you can still be fired from your job if the things you say do not uphold the values of the organisation and whether this is fair or not is another argument. However, freedom of speech is very much at risk and this is a significant factor towards the no vote argument. Like I stated above, people are already being attacked for voicing their opinions against gay marriage and no laws have even been passed yet. One more thing for this point, recently a bill has been proposed which states that those who speak against homosexual relationships could be fined a significant sum. These are all significant ramifications to those who aren't even in a homosexual relationship.

    I'd just like to add one more thing. Straying away from the issue of marriage for just a moment, gay intercourse is extremely dangerous and unhealthy to both parties. Just look up the HIV and other STD rates in gay couples. I am very much for the privacy of couples in a consensual relationship however these rates in STDs means billions of Dollars for treatment. This effect you and me.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by spaghettii View Post
    Australia does not have any laws explicitly giving citizens the right to free speech. Whilst the constitution does contain implied political free speech, this only goes to the extent that the government cannot arrest you for stating a political opinion. This does not mean that Australians can simply say what they want without fear of punishment or censorship, whether it be by law enforcement or the public. This is why we have legislation such as the Racial Discrimination Act - it protects certain groups from defamation. As summarised by this:

    "However, this is the extent to which the implied freedom of political speech provides protection. It does not protect from an acquaintance shutting you down in conversation, a forum administrator deleting your comments, or an event organiser denying you a platform to speak due to your subject matter. Even if your statements concerned political matters, you are not being rejected due to a law restricting your speech, so your implied right of political speech is inapplicable. You can say what you want, but others are under no obligation to listen or give you a platform.

    The Australian government cannot legislate to restrict your freedom of political speech, but you cannot use "freedom of political speech" as a defence." (Source: https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/09/a...dom-of-speech/)

    That being said, arguments by the No campaign involving a "restriction of free speech" as a result of SSM are redundant
    (1) It is more so an observation of the way the Yes campaign is arguing. If particular vocal members of the Yes campaign weren't so quite to label "homophobic" or "bigot" those who respectfully disagree, and not slander religious people for simply holding consistently to their views, maybe the argument of "restriction of free speech" could be then ignored.

    (2) The Sex Discrimination Act 1984, and related legislations do not say that it is "discriminatory" to hold to the idea which has been commonly accepted since federation and even before that, that marriage is between a man and a woman. In fact it says the opposite, specifically highlighting the Marriage Act 1961 (which until 2004 had a implied rather than written definition) as consistent with the 1984 legislation. As Orwell mentioned, nothing in the UN charter of rights, requires for a country to recognise same-sex marriage. In fact not all Western countries do.

    (3) I think the debate is a definition of marriage one. I think to bring up gay-rights or even children, while these are flow-on issues, the real issue, is what purpose does marriage have?

    If that purpose is not extendable to generic loving couples, then the definition should not be changed.

    The rights afforded within marriage can be given to same-sex couples in better ways than changing the function and purpose and definition of an institution that is fairly important as it stands currently for society. Most people who vote no, once you strip back their religious, conservative or other views on the topic, basically their view is dependent on what marriage actually is for them, and for many it is one man and one woman. These people don't mean to be "bigots", but simply because apparently marriage is actually only about love, they are wrong to deny loving people the chance to marry. While it is a very emotive argument, I personally think that it is a terrible reason to change the definition.

    Recognition of same-sex couples, or celebration of same-sex couples, and as I have mentioned on a previous thread (which was a reply to a thread which has been removed), in the view of some (not me though), same-sex relationships are better and can be celebrated as unique. Why conform it to marriage? Especially when some of the most high profile advocates are claiming they really hate marriage and want it removed.

    (4) To argue it won't affect others is wrong. At the very least, it has and will effect sex education in classrooms. Look at case studies overseas. It will change discrimination legislation. This is the concern. Will it be illegal to not accept same-sex marriage as a good thing? That are the concerns raised within 'free speech'.
    Last edited by dan964; 17 Sep 2017 at 4:20 PM.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    That's exactly my point; we don't acknowledge it as a malady. We know that depression is unbearable, we know that being crippled is a severe handicap but as far homosexuality is concerned, it's normal.

    This is caustic because legitimising homosexuality and levelling it with heterosexuality could entail irreversible problems. We've already allowed homosexuals to adopt because it's the 'right thing to do', yet we do not consider the potential psychological ramifications this has on a child. We are not considering what they are being made witness to and the type of perception they have on certain societal structures.
    Let's say we did treat it as a mental health issue. Does that mean those with mental illnesses e.g. bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, depression etc. should be unable to get married and/or raise children?

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
    That's exactly my point; we don't acknowledge it as a malady. We know that depression is unbearable, we know that being crippled is a severe handicap but as far homosexuality is concerned, it's normal.

    This is caustic because legitimising homosexuality and levelling it with heterosexuality could entail irreversible problems. We've already allowed homosexuals to adopt because it's the 'right thing to do', yet we do not consider the potential psychological ramifications this has on a child. We are not considering what they are being made witness to and the type of perception they have on certain societal structures.
    Let's say we did treat it as a mental health issue. Does that mean those with mental illnesses e.g. bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, depression etc. should be unable to get married and/or raise children?

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Should I be exempt from legally marrying my boyfriend due to my mental health?

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Should my autistic friend be exempt from raising a child of his own?

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Ramifications:

    1. Child grows up in a home with autistic/schizophrenic/depressed/bipolar environment
    2. Schools push the "agenda" to not discriminate against those with such disorders
    3. Churches may be subjected to marry such people

    This is essentially the basis for all "no" arguments replaced with "mental health disorders"

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Queenroot View Post
    Let's say we did treat it as a mental health issue. Does that mean those with mental illnesses e.g. bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, depression etc. should be unable to get married and/or raise children?
    I'm not quite following the thought process here.

    Firstly, to answer your question (although I don't see it's relevance to the debate at hand), it would depend on the severity of the disorder and the propensity for that disorder to endanger the child.

    Secondly, there's therapy and medication for depression and bipolar disorder, which can either help suppress or terminate the condition. In the case of homosexuality, the termination would come in the form of a cessation of such a relationship and thus, there'd be no basis for marriage and/or the raising of children.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmo 2 View Post
    there are very likely none.

    this isnt bc gays are necessarily just as "good" as parents as heterosexual couples. its more bc the home environment asserts next to no lasting influences on an individual's psychological development. this is a very controversial and seemingly counter-intuitive statement but it has been corroborated extensively in observational research to the extent that it can be characterised as the "explosion without a bang" of modern behavioral science
    I'd definitely appreciate some evidence to support this claim. There are way too many questions and variables for me to take this on face value.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Queenroot View Post
    Should I be exempt from legally marrying my boyfriend due to my mental health?
    no cos he loves u :/
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmo 2 View Post
    there are very likely none.

    this isnt bc gays are necessarily just as "good" as parents as heterosexual couples. its more bc the home environment asserts next to no lasting influences on an individual's psychological development. this is a very controversial and seemingly counter-intuitive statement but it has been corroborated extensively in observational research to the extent that it can be characterised as the "explosion without a bang" of modern behavioral science
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...61874963c58caa

    "LESBIAN couples make the best parents, with research showing their children have higher levels of health and wellbeing."

    https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publication...ented-families
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMx View Post
    its sad when the unis send an email to defend the yes but wont do the same for no
    MQ just sent a "neutral" email encouraging people to check that their electoral address was up-to-date.
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