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  1. #101
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by spaghettii View Post
    I have many friends who come from homophobic families yet are gay - why would they choose to be something that can (and sometimes, has) lead to harassment, abuse and bullying from their own family?
    What does "being gay" even mean? Does it mean having same-sex attraction, or does it mean actually being involved in a sexually active relationship (which is clearly a choice made)?
    Because the term has such wide implications, often I have seen those argue I was 'born this way' to argue that is why the latter is ok and acceptable.

    I think in general, is sexual attraction something one is born with or something that develops over time?
    I think the latter during puberty, which could be influenced by a variety of factors. Mainly very hazy.

    Do we really have a say over who we like or who we don't? (rhetorical). if a married person becomes attracted to another woman, is that wrong, or is it just the way he was born?
    I think we are too easy to say "born this way" or "it is a choice". I think the answer is neither.

    But to enter into a sexually active relationship is clearly a consent and hence a choice.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by dan964 View Post
    What does "being gay" even mean? Does it mean having same-sex attraction, or does it mean actually being involved in a sexually active relationship (which is clearly a choice made)?
    Because the term has such wide implications, often I have seen those argue I was 'born this way' to argue that is why the latter is ok and acceptable.

    I think in general, is sexual attraction something one is born with or something that develops over time?
    I think the latter during puberty, which could be influenced by a variety of factors. Mainly very hazy.

    Do we really have a say over who we like or who we don't? (rhetorical). if a married person becomes attracted to another woman, is that wrong, or is it just the way he was born?
    I think we are too easy to say "born this way" or "it is a choice". I think the answer is neither.

    But to enter into a sexually active relationship is clearly a consent and hence a choice.
    I define gay in my previous message as same-sex attraction, or attraction not limited to the opposite sex

    On another note, I think it would be quite interesting to find out whether sexual attraction is a genetic or environmental factor, especially given that humans aren't the only species who display such behaviours
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by sinophile View Post
    i used a drop of soy sauce to mark my vote
    I guess thats gonna be one salty vote
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    Senior Member sida1049's Avatar
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by boredofstudiesuser1 View Post
    I wouldn't consider "mannerisms" to be solid evidence for genetic homosexuality. If anything, mannerisms are probably the least inherent characteristic of a person...

    And although just giving a broad brush of "children showing flamboyant personalities and gestures" as solid evidence, even if we did see this, it just shows elements of the environment they're growing up in. Children are highly influential, and pick up what they see. If you see a young boy running around shooting a fake gun in the air you wouldn't say he's an inherent murderer.

    Where's the proof it's inherent?

    I'm not disagreeing that people who say they're homosexual have tendencies to act like the opposite gender, I'm just saying there's no proof it's not a choice.
    I think you're mixing up your inquiry here.

    You're asking for proof that homosexuality is genetic, but you're concluding that "there's no proof that it's not a choice".

    For something not to be a choice doesn't imply that it is genetic. So even if we make the assumption that homosexuality is predominantly picked up socially (which isn't necessarily true; you can easily find peer-reviewed papers suggesting that homosexuality is at least partly biological), it doesn't make homosexuality a choice.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by boredofstudiesuser1 View Post
    proof?
    Which scientific study should I quote from? Scientific and medical consensus clearly indicates that you cannot choose your sexual orientation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dan964 View Post
    What does "being gay" even mean? Does it mean having same-sex attraction, or does it mean actually being involved in a sexually active relationship (which is clearly a choice made)?
    Because the term has such wide implications, often I have seen those argue I was 'born this way' to argue that is why the latter is ok and acceptable.

    I think in general, is sexual attraction something one is born with or something that develops over time?
    I think the latter during puberty, which could be influenced by a variety of factors. Mainly very hazy.

    Do we really have a say over who we like or who we don't? (rhetorical). if a married person becomes attracted to another woman, is that wrong, or is it just the way he was born?
    I think we are too easy to say "born this way" or "it is a choice". I think the answer is neither.

    But to enter into a sexually active relationship is clearly a consent and hence a choice.
    Doesn't your viewpoint apply equally to heterosexuality though?

    Im very strongly heterosexual (never considered the same-sex and admittedly, same-sex kissing actually weirds me out). Ive always thought of it like this, if things were reversed and being gay was normal and straight was abnormal, how would I go about life. I could never enter a relationship with a same-sex person because I just couldnt do it. I could be celibate, but that would mean forgoing the love and commitment of a relationship. The option that would bring me happiness is finding the right woman and settling down with her. The former two options would be terrifying.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Don't even argue with people who are blinded by their religion. I see two in this thread already.

    There is no reasoning with someone who has zero logic because every part of them is built on this crazy thing that is not logical.

    Not an insult, just simply fact. Why would they accept something that they've been told their entire life is wrong, and truly believe is wrong (because their God 'said' so)?
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop21 View Post
    Don't even argue with people who are blinded by their religion. I see two in this thread already.
    Im actually very religious and at the end of the day, I respect their views irrespective even though I strongly disagree with them. However, Im also very strongly against the culture of my religion and this issue is a small part of the much larger problems I have with it. Personally, I believe strongly in the separation between church and state and I dont believe in imposing my views on others. For example, whilst I might be pro SSM and Im very strongly against abortion and divorce. However, I would never support any ban on abortion or major changes to divorce law. People have a right to be free from my views and should decide for themselves.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    god its fucking unreal how this issue of any (not rising wealth inequality, unaffordable shelter, stagnant incomes) is what riles millennials up so much. this has been the only active thread on this whole shithole of a forum for months lol

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    Moderator enoilgam's Avatar
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmo 2 View Post
    god its fucking unreal how this issue of any (not rising wealth inequality, unaffordable shelter, stagnant incomes) is what riles millennials up so much. this has been the only active thread on this whole shithole of a forum for months lol
    To be honest, if we held a plebiscite on those issues, I guarantee you, it would generate just as much interest (might I add, wealth inequality and stagnant incomes are definitely issues I feel strongly about).
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmo 2 View Post
    god its fucking unreal how this issue of any (not rising wealth inequality, unaffordable shelter, stagnant incomes) is what riles millennials up so much. this has been the only active thread on this whole shithole of a forum for months lol
    Yeah. But the thing is, those issues you've mentioned are actually really hard issues. Nearly everyone, if not everyone, agrees that those are problems. But even if politicians try to do something about it, it probably won't be awfully effective.

    SSM on the other hand, is the matter of a single law, of which the opposition is driven almost entirely by religious views. So theoretically, it should be a really easy. But in the end, it just makes everyone angry.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop21 View Post
    Don't even argue with people who are blinded by their religion. I see two in this thread already.

    There is no reasoning with someone who has zero logic because every part of them is built on this crazy thing that is not logical.

    Not an insult, just simply fact. Why would they accept something that they've been told their entire life is wrong, and truly believe is wrong (because their God 'said' so)?
    why cant i marry another man?

    why cant i marry several people?

    why cant i marry my pillow of mei from overwatch?

    the difference is just cultural acceptance

    wheres the logic in allowing same sex marriage but not polygamous marriage or other forms of marriage which dont hurt anyone?

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by sinophile View Post

    wheres the logic in allowing same sex marriage but not polygamous marriage or other forms of marriage which dont hurt anyone?
    Polygamous marriages create issues surrounding divorce, property rights and wills which could potentially hurt dependents. You cant marry a child or a pet because they cant provide consent (therefore, they are hurt).
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by sinophile View Post
    why cant i marry another man?

    why cant i marry several people?

    why cant i marry my pillow of mei from overwatch?

    the difference is just cultural acceptance

    wheres the logic in allowing same sex marriage but not polygamous marriage or other forms of marriage which dont hurt anyone?
    if i can marry 1 woman why cant i marry 2


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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by spaghettii View Post
    I have many friends who come from homophobic families yet are gay - why would they choose to be something that can (and sometimes, has) lead to harassment, abuse and bullying from their own family?
    Rebellion? Plenty of kids rebel from their families, doesn't mean they're inherently whatever they're rebelling to do.

    E.g. gothic people emerge from Christian families -> doesn't mean they're inherently goth

    Plus, this isn't proof either, it's a anonymous and broad 'case study' where we're assuming the outcome, no science behind it, no solid proof.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by sida1049 View Post
    I think you're mixing up your inquiry here.

    You're asking for proof that homosexuality is genetic, but you're concluding that "there's no proof that it's not a choice".

    For something not to be a choice doesn't imply that it is genetic. So even if we make the assumption that homosexuality is predominantly picked up socially (which isn't necessarily true; you can easily find peer-reviewed papers suggesting that homosexuality is at least partly biological), it doesn't make homosexuality a choice.
    How can something be inherent and not genetic? Genuinely interested for an example.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by enoilgam View Post
    Which scientific study should I quote from? Scientific and medical consensus clearly indicates that you cannot choose your sexual orientation.



    Doesn't your viewpoint apply equally to heterosexuality though?

    Im very strongly heterosexual (never considered the same-sex and admittedly, same-sex kissing actually weirds me out). Ive always thought of it like this, if things were reversed and being gay was normal and straight was abnormal, how would I go about life. I could never enter a relationship with a same-sex person because I just couldnt do it. I could be celibate, but that would mean forgoing the love and commitment of a relationship. The option that would bring me happiness is finding the right woman and settling down with her. The former two options would be terrifying.
    One. No pseudoscience though, right?

    Being heterosexual works scientifically. Life continues because you have heterosexual relationships. Putting all emotions aside, there's no scientific benefit/proof that homosexuality is a natural process.

    Not bringing religion or political views into this, I'm simply saying there's no solid proof it's not a choice.

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by enoilgam View Post
    Im actually very religious and at the end of the day, I respect their views irrespective even though I strongly disagree with them. However, Im also very strongly against the culture of my religion and this issue is a small part of the much larger problems I have with it. Personally, I believe strongly in the separation between church and state and I dont believe in imposing my views on others. For example, whilst I might be pro SSM and Im very strongly against abortion and divorce. However, I would never support any ban on abortion or major changes to divorce law. People have a right to be free from my views and should decide for themselves.
    Ok, so putting aside physical and logical views, if I am a 'strongly religious' person and I believe homosexuality is wrong and homosexuals will go to hell, wouldn't it be cruel of me to condone their behaviour if I believe it's going to end badly (based on religious beliefs that I hold to be true), wether I want it to or not? It's as if I see someone throwing themselves in front of a car and I give them a little push to get it done quicker. Like whether they go to hell or not, if I believe they do, I'm not gonna stand by and let them...

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by enoilgam View Post
    Im actually very religious and at the end of the day, I respect their views irrespective even though I strongly disagree with them. However, Im also very strongly against the culture of my religion and this issue is a small part of the much larger problems I have with it. Personally, I believe strongly in the separation between church and state and I dont believe in imposing my views on others. For example, whilst I might be pro SSM and Im very strongly against abortion and divorce. However, I would never support any ban on abortion or major changes to divorce law. People have a right to be free from my views and should decide for themselves.
    wot

    this is news to me

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by enoilgam View Post
    Im actually very religious and at the end of the day, I respect their views irrespective even though I strongly disagree with them. However, Im also very strongly against the culture of my religion and this issue is a small part of the much larger problems I have with it. Personally, I believe strongly in the separation between church and state and I dont believe in imposing my views on others. For example, whilst I might be pro SSM and Im very strongly against abortion and divorce. However, I would never support any ban on abortion or major changes to divorce law. People have a right to be free from my views and should decide for themselves.
    wot

    this is news to me

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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by boredofstudiesuser1 View Post
    One. No pseudoscience though, right?

    Being heterosexual works scientifically. Life continues because you have heterosexual relationships. Putting all emotions aside, there's no scientific benefit/proof that homosexuality is a natural process.

    Not bringing religion or political views into this, I'm simply saying there's no solid proof it's not a choice.
    Many animals exhibit homosexual behaviour, notably giraffes.

  21. #121
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Queenroot View Post
    wot

    this is news to me
    He went to a catholic school and ND.....
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by boredofstudiesuser1 View Post
    Ok, so putting aside physical and logical views, if I am a 'strongly religious' person and I believe homosexuality is wrong and homosexuals will go to hell, wouldn't it be cruel of me to condone their behaviour if I believe it's going to end badly (based on religious beliefs that I hold to be true), wether I want it to or not? It's as if I see someone throwing themselves in front of a car and I give them a little push to get it done quicker. Like whether they go to hell or not, if I believe they do, I'm not gonna stand by and let them...
    There's a difference between expressing your point of view and forcing your point of view onto others.

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    Taking a break! dan964's Avatar
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by enoilgam View Post
    Which scientific study should I quote from? Scientific and medical consensus clearly indicates that you cannot choose your sexual orientation.



    Doesn't your viewpoint apply equally to heterosexuality though?

    Im very strongly heterosexual (never considered the same-sex and admittedly, same-sex kissing actually weirds me out). Ive always thought of it like this, if things were reversed and being gay was normal and straight was abnormal, how would I go about life. I could never enter a relationship with a same-sex person because I just couldnt do it. I could be celibate, but that would mean forgoing the love and commitment of a relationship. The option that would bring me happiness is finding the right woman and settling down with her. The former two options would be terrifying.
    of course to some degree, heterosexuality is alike to homosexuality in the sense that it isn't implicitly a choice.
    but it really depends on what you are implying.

    but there is one big difference, and that is the sexual union between men and women can naturally without assisted reproduction, beget children.
    that fundamental difference will always exist.

    I personally am heterosexual, not that I really need to stress it or flaunt it; i am perfectly happy remaining as I am, if I find a nice Christian girl to be married to, I would be happy also. But I personally have found something more fulfilling than any sexual active or romantic relationship could provide.

    understanding though there is a range of experience.
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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by boredofstudiesuser1 View Post
    Ok, so putting aside physical and logical views, if I am a 'strongly religious' person and I believe homosexuality is wrong and homosexuals will go to hell, wouldn't it be cruel of me to condone their behaviour if I believe it's going to end badly (based on religious beliefs that I hold to be true), wether I want it to or not? It's as if I see someone throwing themselves in front of a car and I give them a little push to get it done quicker. Like whether they go to hell or not, if I believe they do, I'm not gonna stand by and let them...
    Ok. Now apply your compassion to stop people from going to hell to other sinful behaviours.

    Lets outlaw adultery as well how about that


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    Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by boredofstudiesuser1 View Post
    One. No pseudoscience though, right?

    Being heterosexual works scientifically. Life continues because you have heterosexual relationships. Putting all emotions aside, there's no scientific benefit/proof that homosexuality is a natural process.

    Not bringing religion or political views into this, I'm simply saying there's no solid proof it's not a choice.
    There is a lot of evidence to suggest homosexuality is not a choice.

    First off all, the logic doesn't add up if you conclude homosexuality is a choice. If you assume everyone had a natural affinity to the opposite sex, why on earth would anyone go against this natural desire and choose same sex over opposite sex? The fact that there exists so many people who prefer same sex over opposite sex clearly contradicts this. Even if people supposedly 'choose' same sex irrationally then under this 'choice' theory they should have no problem being attracted to the opposite sex. However, this is simply not true for so many people. Many homosexual people have basically no attraction to the opposite sex. Adding to this, if homosexuality was a choice then why do homosexual people exist given the social ramifications?

    Secondly, whilst no one has quite pinpointed the cause of homosexuality (e.g. whether it is genetic, environmental or a combination of both), scientists generally do not believe sexual orientation is a choice. There are many studies to support this. I could quote many, but I'll just pluck one from a quick google search: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...e-9875855.html
    Last edited by Trebla; 19 Sep 2017 at 12:59 AM.

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