[MoonlightSonata]

2. University

Contents:
• Which uni should I attend?
• What are the differences between unis?
• Do employers care where you study?
• What are the entry requirements?
• What if I don't get straight into law?
• What degree should I combine law with?
• What subjects will I study?
• What are law classes like?
• Does HSC legal studies help?
• What are law students like? Are they competitive, hot, arrogant?
• Who are the law students on these forums?


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• Which uni should I attend?

Preliminary note

This is a very controversial question, and the answer will depend on what you seek from your law degree. I will attempt to provide a concise, unbiased and accurate answer. I am not concerned here with giving you a spiel about all universities being equal, or making people feel good about their individual university. Prospective students do not need niceties, they need accurate information.

Law is a useful degree for many careers and one may not wish to become a lawyer. This section will focus on what university to choose with regard to pursuing a career in law. So far, it only contains information that I consider accurate. [Lack of information on particular universities does not indicate lack of approval or any lesser quality, recognition or respect. The only reason I have not added information about certain universities is because I do not yet have the knowledge to comment on them.]

Does it make a difference?

It does make a difference where you get your law degree, all else being equal. To deny this would be wishful thinking. Some institutions have a better reputation and will therefore provide you with a better chance on the academic level of being appealing to employers. There is no question about this.

However, it is a matter of "to what extent". Experience, good grades, personal skills, character and participation in other activities are also extremely important factors which combined outweigh the importance of the degree. So degree is not everything by all means, but it does make a difference. Think of your academic degree as a weapon in your arsenal. Some might be finer balanced or sharper than others, giving an edge in the fight. But it doesn't determine the battle by itself.

The Options

The most prestigious Australian university for law is the University of Sydney. It is a very old university that still carries a strong reputation and many ties in the legal community. For this reason it is perhaps advisable to seek placement in this university first.

The University of New South Wales is also up at the top of Australian law schools, in terms of reputation. USyd and UNSW are widely regarded as equal first, with USyd having a slight edge in prestige due to its long history. Recently the Federal Government's assessment of excellence found that UNSW leads all Australian universities for the quality of learning and teaching in law.

This section is still under construction, but here is a relevant article:

Law schools - hankering for a ranking

Australian law schools love the kudos associated with a strong showing in rankings surveys. The latest attempt to rank Australian law schools was recently released evoking in some schools glee, in others gloom. FindLaw investigates this latest rankings survey and asks whether rankings really matter at all.
The 2004 edition of The Good Universities Guide hit the newsstands and bookshops a few weeks ago. In 448 pages it endeavours to comprehensively rank Australian universities and the degree courses they offer.

Part 1 ranks each university according to a wide variety of academic, social and statistical criteria. Not surprisingly members of the Group of Eight coalition were rated as the most prestigious institutions in Australia. The so-called Group of Eight comprises The University of Adelaide, The Australian National University, The University of Melbourne, Monash University, The University of New South Wales, The University of Queensland, The University of Sydney and The University of Western Australia. For many prospective students this is where their analysis of Australian universities starts and stops.

Part 2 analyses 30 broad fields of study including law. The quality or otherwise of various law schools was measured against criteria including students’ perceptions of teaching quality, their overall satisfaction with the course, their success in getting a job and their starting salary. According to these measures the Law Schools of The University of Newcastle, The University of Wollongong, The University of New South Wales and Bond University are the best in Australia; at least according to the Good Guide’s comparison of student surveys.

However, as the Good Guide concedes their ranking and rating is merely an indicator and does not present the full picture.

“There is on going debate among academics about the reliability, use and validity of the Course Experience Questionnaire (CEQ). Some institutions argue that the CEQ has not been designed for the purposes of inter-institutional comparisons, CEQ data do not necessarily provide an accurate comparison of differences in the quality of education or the level of student satisfaction from institution to institution,” says the Guide on page 41.

The assumption is that the leading law schools could be objectively and qualitatively identified, as if such identification really matters.

In preparing this story FindLaw spoke with students, staff and graduates from numerous Australian law schools and with lawyers and human resources professionals from a number of Australian law firms. While students and graduates understandably exhibited some parochial pride and marketing professionals were eager to put forward a positive spin on their particular school, there was apparent indifference about rankings and comparisons. FindLaw found that good students were more interested in making the most of their opportunities, whichever institution they studied at, and law firms simply wanted well-rounded students.

Julia Sweeney was admitted as a Legal Practitioner in 2001 after three and a half years studying with the Law Extension Committee of the University of Sydney (‘LEC’), an institution not mentioned in the Good Guide. Sweeney received her Diploma of Law from the Legal Practitioners Admission Board and after a career as a registered nurse is now employed as a medical negligence lawyer with Sydney firm Craddock Murray Neumann.

I asked Julia whether her qualification, a Diploma of Law vis-a-vis a Bachelor of Laws, was a barrier to securing a position as a lawyer?

“As a mature-age student this was a major concern to me. However, my experience and that of my friends was quite the opposite. Having a Diploma in Law has not ever been a barrier at all, in fact, when I have gone for interviews it was always viewed positively.

“In December 1999 I organized a panel of speakers to address LEC students. The opening address was given by Justice Windeyer and the speakers included: John Kelly, a Partner with Mallesons Stephen Jacques; Siobhain Mullany, a Criminal Lawyer with the Legal Aid Commission; and Michael Ryan a Partner with McClellands. Some of the speakers had completed the LEC course but most were employers who were all unanimous in their opinion that the course was not a barrier to employment and, in fact, often gave candidates a leading edge because of the perceived demands of the course,” Sweeney replied.

A survey of several law firms revealed that, whereas there were formerly distinct preferences for graduates from certain law schools this is no longer the case. Adele Brady, Director of Human Resources at Freehills identified a student with the right package of skills as the sort of candidate Freehills is seeking. I asked Brady what she meant by the “right package of skills”?

“The particular school a new recruit went to is not as important anymore, and is not the reason why people succeed at Freehills.

“We are looking for more than just core legal skills when we recruit. Our research from clients shows that they want to work with lawyers who understand their business. Australian law schools are justifiably recognised worldwide for the high quality of their legal training, but we need to select graduates who also have interpersonal and communications skills. Most students only do selected commercial law subjects at university anyway, and we have a comprehensive graduate-training program to develop these skills. Primarily we are looking for the best students who have a package of skills and the ability to develop into the commercially aware lawyers our clients demand. We find these good graduates in all universities, and it's important to look everywhere for the top people . . . [T]hese days we can't exclude any school from our search for the best and brightest. This is because candidates with the right combination of skills can thrive and rise to the top in any one of them,” Brady said.

Claire Storey, Human Resources Consultant for Baker & McKenzie, concurred with Brady on this issue saying that it ultimately came down to the talent of the individual not the law school they attended.

“In our graduates we look for high academic achievement, energy, enthusiasm, entrepreneurial skills and a good grasp of external business environments. Ultimately, a lawyer’s career is driven by the individual,” Storey said.

Adele Brady conceded that Freehills had its preferences when recruiting in the 1980’s and 1990’s. Brady stressed however, that preferential treatment is no longer part of Freehills recruitment culture.

FindLaw was impressed by this admission because as our readers appreciate it is tough enough to compete for professional positions simply on one’s merits. Known to the author was a man who in the mid-1990’s completed a Diploma of Law (LEC) with outstanding results. He had an Economics degree and several years experience working in a major insurance company. Yet despite being qualified for the positions he applied for, he could not secure a position in a medium or large firm in Sydney. The consensus amongst his colleagues and friends remains that his LEC qualification was viewed unfavourably.

While FindLaw has no reason to doubt the veracity of Freehills’ claim, we wonder aloud whether things have really changed across the board in the recruiting practices of law firms? Would the likes of Justice Michael McHugh, Justice Margaret Beazley, Justice David Ireland and David Nock SC, all LEC graduates, secure positions if they were applying for graduate positions in 2004?

But lest FindLaw makes too much of its egalitarian analysis of Australian law schools it is important to acknowledge two very telling points made to us. Some law schools by the very fact that entry to them is fiercely competitive tend to produce extraordinarily gifted graduates. Nowhere is this more apparent than the University of New South Wales Law School, which has produced five Rhodes Scholars in the last seven years (and at least one other Runner-Up that the author is aware of).

Secondly, there is a perception that four universities dominate in the recruitment stakes: The University of Melbourne, Monash University, The University of Sydney and The University of New South Wales. But according to Claire Storey perception is not reality.

“There are naturally higher numbers of recruits from the larger law schools (eg. Melbourne, Monash, Sydney and New South Wales), however these are in proportion (as a percentage of total applicants from each school) to the number of applications received. [Although] the bulk of Baker & McKenzie’s recruits come from The University of New South Wales, The University of Sydney, Monash University and The University of Melbourne . . . we have also taken a significant number of clerks from Deakin University, The University of Technology, The University of Queensland, Bond University and The Australian National University,” Storey said.

So we come back to where we started – do law school rankings matter at all? To concerned parents who cough up $22.00 to buy the Good Guide – definitely; to the terminally elite – naturally; to well-performed graduates – no; and to the law firms – evidently not.

(From findlaw.com.au - original link now dead.)

Thanks to Frigid for providing the article.

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• What are the differences between unis?

This section is under construction, but you may find the article above, "Law schools - hankering for a ranking", relevant or interesting.

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• Do employers care where you study?

Yet to be added.

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• What are the entry requirements?

Undergraduate Law

Generally undergraduate law degrees require a UAI in the mid to high 90's. Each university has different entry requirements. You can read about them at the different university law school websites:

• Australian National University
• Bond University
• Monash University
• Macquarie University
• University of Queensland
• University of Melbourne
• University of Newcastle
• University of New England
• University of New South Wales
• University of Sydney
• University of Technology Sydney
• University of Western Sydney
• University of Wollongong


Graduate Law

Graduate law degrees are for students who have already completed an existing non-law degree. The entry selection process varies between universities, so it is best to clarify with the relevant institution. Generally the selection is based on (1) your university marks, and (2) your UAI, usually with less emphasis on your UAI.

Note that honours or post-graduate degrees may make entry much easier. For example, the UNSW law faculty states (here) that applicants with a completed Research Masters or PhD will automatically be offered a place. The USYD law faculty states that applicants with a PhD, or Masters degree by research or an Honours degree (especially First Class) generally receive an offer (see here).


Postgraduate Law

Be careful to differentiate between graduate law, which is a Bachelor of Laws degree for non-law graduates, and postgraduate law, which includes specialist degrees for law graduates. Postgraduate law includes masters degrees and PhDs that allow in-depth education at higher levels of difficulty. If you want a law degree, post-graduate law is not for you.

Note: There are some postgraduate degrees offered by some universities to non-law graduates, but these do not give you any legal qualifications. You need a Bachelor of Laws to practice law.

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• What if I don't get straight into law?

If you do not make the cut-off for the law course you were seeking a place in, you have three primary options, listed below. You also have one alternate option if you not concerned about obtaining a law degree, but rather you simply wish to practice law.

1. Transfer

You can start another degree at a university and work as hard as you can during that year. At the end of the year, when it is time to submit university preferences to UAC, you then apply to transfer. Note that: (1) this can be very difficult to achieve if you are applying for a high UAI cut-off course, such as law at USYD, and (2) several universities have restrictions on transferring, including that you can only transfer after 1 year of tertiary study and no more. See the section on transfers.


2. Full fee-paying

As you know, the government subsidises your tertiary studies. This is why normal university places are called "Commonwealth Funded Places" (CFP). The old name for this scheme was the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS).

However, several universities offer places where the government does not subsidise your degree and you can pay the full amount of the course fees. These are domestic full-fee paying places (DFEE). The advantage of doing this is that full-fee paying places allow entry to students with up to 5 UAI places lower than the required CFP cut-off. Note that this is a maximum. Some full fee paying course cut-offs, such as USYD law, can be only 1 or 2 points lower.

Thus, if you received a UAI of 97 and the CFP cut-off was 99.15, the university may have a full-fee paying cut-off of 96, allowing you to get in with a lower mark. You will of course have to pay a much higher fee (approximately $18,000-20,000 per year), and you must pay these fees upfront, on a per-semester basis. Compare this with CFP courses, where the fee is approximately $6000 a year, and is deferred (you pay it back slowly as you reach a certain salary).

Additionally, you can attempt to transfer from a DFEE place to a CFP place after 1 year of study in that degree. This is done through the normal transfer calculation, whereby your tertiary studies are combined with your UAI. For UNSW or USYD, to be competitive in transferring from DFEE to CSP, you would need a distinction average at uni and a UAI of around 96. (See here for more details.)


3. Graduate Law

You can always complete a non-law degree and then seek entry into a graduate law degree. The advantage is that you may perform to a higher standard in your second degree after having the discipline, scholarly training and experience you reap from any university degree (essay writing, research, independent learning, knowledge of the system, more realistic expectations, etc). The disadvantage of this is that you risk not being allowed entry and it will usually take longer to complete two separate degrees rather than a combined law degree.

Entry into graduate law is determined through considering your UAI and tertiary results, with emphasis on the latter. However, different universities vary on their admissions selection process for graduate law so it is best to seek advice from the relevant institution. Note that if you really just want to do a law degree, there is a danger (at least for some) of losing motivation throughout the first degree. This is a problem, since you will have to do well in your first degree to gain entry to graduate law.


4. Legal Practitioners Admission Board

If you have your heart set on practicing law, but for whatever reason university is not an option, you may like to consider the Legal Practioners Admission Board Diploma of Law course. It is much easier to get into than university law degrees, but it has been said that it is a very challenging course. You can find information on the course at this site:

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlin.../lpab_dipinlaw

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• What degree should I combine law with?

The short answer is it doesn't matter. More to be added later.

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• What subjects will I study?

The subjects you will study depends on what university you attend and what you combine law with. Of the law subjects you will study, generally the core, compulsary courses are as follows:

• Torts - law of civil wrongs; deals with wrongful acts between private individuals or groups, in particular the law of negligence.

• Contract Law - deals with agreements between parties and the enforcement of mutual promises; how they are created, terminated, breached, what remedies can be sought and other related issues.

• Criminal Law - deals with the laws regulating behaviour considered to be morally unacceptable and 'criminal'; types of crime (assault, public disorder, drug offences, rape, murder, etc), how the criminal justice system operates, procedural issues, defences and sentencing.

• Property Law - covers the law governing private property - personal property, land law and equity; how property is defined, transferred, regulated and how to deal with competing property interests.

• Administrative Law - deals with the law concerning accountability and control of government officials. Topics may include: delegated legislation, duty to give reasons for administrative decisions, freedom of information, the Ombudsman, Administrative Appeals Tribunals, and judicial review of administrative action.

• Federal Constitutional Law/Public Law - deals with powers, regulations and rights relating to the most important legal document in Australia - the Constitution, and how our system of government works. Topics may include: legislative powers and their limitations, the Westminster system, federation, indigenous peoples and sovereignty, human rights and bills of rights, the federal parliament, the separation of powers and constitutional change.

• Litigation - involves civil and criminal pre-trial procedure (including the process for initiating a case, pleading rules, serving court process, discovery and exchange of information between parties, etc) and trial procedure, including the presentation of evidence.

There are also a number of electives that one can choose to study. For example, international law, advanced torts, chinese law or internet law.

You can see what subjects various law faculties offer on their websites:
• ANU
• MAQU
• UNSW
• UOW
• USYD
• UTS
• UWS

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• What are law classes like?

Yet to be added.

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• Does HSC legal studies help?

In short, no. You do not have to have studied legal studies and you will be at no disadvantage for not having undertaken it.

Undertaking legal studies in the HSC probably demonstrates your enthusiasm for law, which is great. Your legal studies in high school will give you a flavour of law within society and some insight into the type of fields you might study at university. However the background knowledge reaped from HSC Legal Studies is of little consequence in your actual law degree. The Legal Institutions (USYD) and Foundations of Law (UNSW) type courses, which run for 1 semester at the beginning of your law degree, cover anything important that you might have learnt in legal studies.

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• What are law students like? Are they very competitive, hot, arrogant?

Law student noneother says:

Varies greatly. Those who are not hell bent on becoming lawyers I've noticed to be more down to earth. A handful have over inflated egos. Generally very articulate bunch of people, can make you feel inadequate on occassions.

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• Who are the law students on these forums?

These are the people studying law on Bored of Studies. Considering that they are studying a variety of different degrees at different institutions, an endeavour has been made to list them in the chance that they may be able to provide people with specific information:

• 04er - 3rd Year, Com/Law, USYD
• agentprovocater - 2nd Year, International Studies/Law, UTS
• Demandred - 3rd Year, Eco/Law, UWS
• Frigid - 4th Year, Com/Law, UNSW
• Giant Lobster - 3rd Year, Com/Law, UNSW
• Goodtogo - (Now graduated), Business Admin/Law, MQ
• gordo - 3rd Year, Aeron. Space Eng/Law, USYD
• hfis - 3rd Year, B Laws/GDip Legal Practice, UOW
• Jennifer - 3rd Year, Business/Law, UWS
• Jonathan A - 4th Year, Social Sci/Law, UWS
• Lainee - 3rd Year, Com/Law, USYD
• LaraB - 3rd Year, Business/Law, UWS
• Lazarus - 6th Year, Science/Law, UNSW
• MaryJane - 4th Year, Arts/Law, MQ
• Melsc - 3rd Year, Arts/Law, MQ.
• MoonlightSonata - 5th Year Arts/Law, UNSW
• mr Eazy - 3rd Year, Business/Law, UTS
• Neo_o - 3rd Year, Asian Studies/Law, ANU
• Newbie - 4th Year, Com/Law, UNSW
• noneother - 3rd Year, Actu/Law, ANU
• Not-That-Bright, 3rd Year
• Omnidragon - 4th Year, Com/Law, Melb
• pigs_can_fly - 4th Year, Com/Law, USYD
• PwarYuex - 3rd Year, History/Law, MQ
• Rorix - 3rd Year, Com/Law, USYD
• rukawasan - 4th Year, Com/Law, UNSW
• santaslayer - 4th Year, Com/Law, UOW
• stamos - 4th Year, Sci/Law, UNSW
• sugared plum
• yourdad - Com/Law, UWA
• Ziff - 3rd Year, Arts/Law, ANU

Please PM MoonlightSonata if your username is not here and you would like it to be. (Last updated January 2007)

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