National Studies HISTORIOGRAPHY

[Lexicographer]

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Pfft? Me? Hardcore? Tell that to my 47 trial...

[Benno]

umm, can u qoute out of the Modern hiostory excel?

how would u do it?

[Benno]

anyone??

panic* panic*

[braindrainedAsh]

Originally posted by Benno
umm, can u qoute out of the Modern hiostory excel?

how would u do it?

Historian R. Ringer states that "blah blah"

I did it in my trial Found a nice quote in there about Hitler's use of terror.

A question about historiography... do they want us to quote historians or primary sources? I borrowed Caldwell's Indochina book from school today and in it the historiography sections contain primary sources... I thought that they wanted historians perspectives.... or is it a mixture of both?

[Benno]

both i guess.

[tink 18]

Historiographhy is the study of the writing of history, right? So that means we study how it is written by the historians (methodology), which is how they use their sources etc. In historiography you also look at a historians baises and personal perspective in their work. So (even though i dont do modern history, just ancient and exension) yes you should look at the different perspectives of the historians who write about the topic and if possible find out how their personal context could have possibly influenced what they have written. Some historians dont believe that we can be influenced by our personal context (objectivists) but i think, like the relativists that we are.

When it comes to answering a question you can present your own perspective aslong as you do support your conclusion with evidence (i.e sources)
To answer Ash's question, I think you should use both. Then you will have a contemporary view, report etc of "what really happened" and a modern historians interpretation of the evidence and the events that you are looking at and you can compare and contrast them.

[emily]

um, my two cents - yeah, start off with (just example here!!) smith believes that hitler came to power due to the depression. he feels it helped by making the people of germany "look for a solution".

so you intergrate - be general and then shove in a quote later (i always end up making the quotes up coz i get the general feel for their argument but can never remember actual quotes!)

hope that helped!

[leeraff]

hello.

Quick question we did historiography become part of the syllabus? I mean when you refer to it are you just talking about historian facts or points of view, or is there another meaning? or another use for them?

thx =)

[*10#]

According to my teacher ( who apparently knows everything )
the majority of students do historiography really badly just chuck in some quotes from a historain into a paragraph

To do it well it has to have some connection correlation to the question of the paragraph you are writing about - obviously

You should discuss at least two positions like the traditional viewpoint followed by the revisionist. Quotes are used to explain the view of a historian but unless it is related to a wider historiographical discussion or compared or contrasted to other schools of thought its essentially a waste of time

an example on an essay bout totalitarian regime - Germany

Initially historians generally believed that the Third Reich was an effective totalitarian state, all opposition was crushed, the Nazis did not have to answer to anybody and Gleichshaltung was used to coordinate all aspects of life under Hitler. This was the case argued Joachim Fest *insert quotation*. However after new evidence had come to light revisionist historians began to question the extent to which the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime. Martin Broszat argued that despite the imposition of legal terror opposition still remained and that Hitler was a lazy and wek leader not all powerful. Blah shit blah

hope this is remotely helpful

ppl really dont get too obsessed with historiography just know two different perspectives for a couple of different debates and hope that the question allows you to show of all your knowledge!

i dont find this forum stressful its actually motivating to see all the commitment makes me wanna actually do some study

[HannieStar]

"the senior marker this year for indochina is cantwell. if any qns arise bout historians then he is asked. he knows a lot on indochina...he did a phd in it. therefore if u use good historians then it is going to make u look good."

I think Cantwell writes a textbook for HSC- my friend has it I am sure. The reason why I bring this up is that if Cantwell is so great, why is McCallum crap?

[HannieStar]

Hey guys

About quoting Excel- I called HSC Advice line, they said not to do it because they are stating facts from other historians without sourcing them. The lady said it is better to use McCallum, Martin Lacey etc- the texts from school

If you have the time, go to the library and read up on:
Mary Fulbrook
James Joll
Eric Hobsbawm
Abba Eban
Any of Lisa Pine's artciles on the net

Good luck

V. V. useful

[Jennibeans]

excellent idea to post historiography as well
I have found it useful not to try to memorise the historian's quotes - paraphrase!!

Historiography - WW1

L.C.E Turner: the original Schlieffan Plan (i.e. before General von Moltke modified it) would have been more successful than the modified version & these modifications doomed germany from the start.

A Palmer: The Schlieffan Plan would never have succeeded

John Terraine: the Allied victory was a result of the moral effect of the US army rather than their actual battles, the morale collape within the German army, recuperation & renewed strength of British (allowed for by US backup) & Haig's persistance.

Basil Liddell Hart: (on victory) you can't just look at the last weeks of war, consider also the role of the British naval blockade, propaganda and the fact that Ludendorff cracked due to allied success & demanded an armistice

I'm working through some historiography from Christopher Condon's WW1 lecture. Will post any good quotes

[Ziff]

For Haig:

Terraine, Gervase Phillips, John Buchanan, Duff Cooper, Ian Malcolm Brown are all pro-Haig historians. They mostly attribute his failings to his background and overall reckon he did a decent job. Some quotes:

�patience, sobriety, balance of temper and unshakeable fortitude� (Historian: John Buchan) - He believed that Haig's military upbringing gave him these useful and necessary virtues that Haig used well in the face of war.

�presided over the integration of entirely new weapons technologies, chemical, aerial and armoured, into the BEF's tactical system� (Historian: Gervase Phillips) - Attibuted the success of the final 1918 campaign to Haig [not Foch] for finally bringing together and integrating new tactics and technologies.

�impose an inflexible procedure as compensation for lack of training� (Historian: John Terraine) - Terraine says [along with other things] that Haig found it necessary to use an inflexible training procedure because this was the only possible way they could train the conscripted men upto battlefield standards.

Duff Cooper (Official British War Historian) explains that ��to have refused to fight then and there would have meant the abandonment of Verdun to its fate and the breakdown of the co-operation with the French...� - Reasons for why the Battle of the Somme was brought forward from August to July.

Ian Malcolm Brown praised Haig for his excellent administrative and transport systems.

---
Personally, I thought Haig was an utter douche, however, I wrote a very polemic essay that was pro-Haig simply to piss my teacher off because it seemed like a good idea at the time :PIt wasn't an assessment task anyway.

Finding anti-Haig and anti-British General historians is very easy, such as, Denis Winter and John Laffin.

[clerisy]

More Haig quotes:

"From beginning to end his handling of Third Ypres betokened an obstinacy of statuesque proportions"-- Norman F Dixon (On Haig's inability to adapt to circumstances-- esp in a war so different from those ever fought before)

"Haig ordered many bloody battles in this war. He only took part in two. He never even saw the ground on which his greatest battles were fought..." -- Lloyd George in his memoirs

"Haig lacked the intellectual power- or genius- to handle so mighty a weapon as his army with any degree of subtlety." -- Barrie Pitt [quoted in John Laffin, 'British Butchers and Bunglers of WWI]


Dammit! Just realised I'm missing 'Neighbours'! Ill put more up at a later date!....

[ameh]

Originally posted by poowee
Germany- Volkgemeinschaft
�Hitler�s new social order contained in Volksgemeinschaft was, in many respects, merely a propaganda gimmick. In reality, deep social divisions and sources of serious discontent remained scarcely concealed by the propaganda image and were countered by severe repression.� -Jenkins

this quote sounds so usefull...pity it is a wrong intrepetrations to call volks. a gimmix....yeah he knows what he is doing.

there was a large popualr concenus amoungst germany towards the nazis..very limited opoaition.

volks. was very popular as well...egg streght throuhg joy ect.

volks. is a process that actually happend

GET UR FCTS RIGHT BEFORE U WASTE OTHER SPACE ON THIS FORUM AND READ MATERIAL U SUCK AT HISTORY GO AND MAKE UP SOME QUOTE LIKE THE ONE ABOVE MABYE THEN U MIGHT FIND A FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

stop wasting post space, i had to scroll down heaps just to see ur useless babble