Just some q's...

[Hiphoppa]

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Hi all, great job with these boards. Lots of really informative posts.
I just have a few questions in regards to studying/working in law.

1- I've applied for the graduate-entry law degree at Monash. I was wondering if anyone has applied for this recently and knows what kind of grades they expect? My average is 73-74 and their website states that 70 is the min for a CSP place, but I'm assuming it would still be quite competitive.

2 - Is your ENTER score considered in the application? My ENTER was 83.5 which although doesn't sound like much, was quite hard to get considering where I went to school.

3- Roughly how much time is spent studying for each subject weekly?

4 - Are you supposed to specialise in a certain area when you choose your electives or does that come later? I'm interested in pursuing family law.

5- If someone could give me the names of some big firms (I realise they wouldn't be top-tier) in this field?

6- Is it possible to work as a lawyer part-time? I've just graduated from a Communications degree, majoring in journalism and PR, and would like to combine both these areas. Ideally, I'd like to practice law roughly 3-4 days a week, while also having time to do freelance writing. I've read an American article which says that apparently, it is quite common for journalism students to also study law.

7 - I'm really passionate about working in the family law field, however I've heard that it can be very draining emotionally. Can someone give me a bit of insight into this? Does it usually require long hours?

Thanks so much for your help in advance

[hfis]

Originally Posted by Hiphoppa

Hi all, great job with these boards. Lots of really informative posts.
I just have a few questions in regards to studying/working in law.

1- I've applied for the graduate-entry law degree at Monash. I was wondering if anyone has applied for this recently and knows what kind of grades they expect? My average is 73-74 and their website states that 70 is the min for a CSP place, but I'm assuming it would still be quite competitive.

2 - Is your ENTER score considered in the application? My ENTER was 83.5 which although doesn't sound like much, was quite hard to get considering where I went to school.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to these ones.

3- Roughly how much time is spent studying for each subject weekly?

Depends on the student. I honestly don't do any study, unless it's for a specific assignment, or I'm cramming for final exams (thank you for your question by the way, you are allowing me to procrastinate Property and Trusts for a few more minutes). Other law students I know have no social life and spend their free time studying, but do not necessarily get better marks than me. You've done a degree, so you have some idea as to what your abilities are - just make sure you know them, and adjust accordingly. If you need 5 hours of study per subject per week, do that, otherwise just do what you're comfortable with.

Some subjects (for example, property law) require a lot more study than others (insert any 'ethics' based subject).

4 - Are you supposed to specialise in a certain area when you choose your electives or does that come later? I'm interested in pursuing family law.

Knowing what field you want to practice in helps, as it lets you pick electives that suit your chosen specialisation. However, it is not necessarily the norm to be sure of what you want to do. I and many others pick electives that sound interesting, and then refine our generalist field as we gradually work out what we're good at. I graduate next year, and I still have no idea what I'll end up specialising in - possibly family. To be honest I'm just going to tell the firms I interview at that I'm interested in whatever their website says they specialise in, and I'll probably get bought up in an area of law that way.

5- If someone could give me the names of some big firms (I realise they wouldn't be top-tier) in this field?

I don't quite understand. You want big firms, but not top tier? (so, mid tier?)

If so I'm not really an expert on that area, but this forum is full of people who are.

6- Is it possible to work as a lawyer part-time? I've just graduated from a Communications degree, majoring in journalism and PR, and would like to combine both these areas. Ideally, I'd like to practice law roughly 3-4 days a week, while also having time to do freelance writing. I've read an American article which says that apparently, it is quite common for journalism students to also study law.

In practice, the only part time lawyers I've seen are those working in the navy reserves as military lawyers, and paralegals (who aren't lawyers at all). I think a part time solicitor's position in any mid to top tier firm would be rarer than sensible NSW legislation, so I don't like your chances. Some council offices might have something up that ally, though again, the only part time positions I've seen advertised are for paralegals. Employers tend to be pretty generous with maternity leave these days thanks to anti-discrimination reforms, so you could always... well, I think you know what to do.

7 - I'm really passionate about working in the family law field, however I've heard that it can be very draining emotionally. Can someone give me a bit of insight into this? Does it usually require long hours?

It's only draining insofar as you allow yourself to get connected to clients, or more accurately, their cause. When you first start tackling cases in the field it's hard, but gets a lot easier as you learn to view things objectively and realise that your client's emotional rhetoric - whilst being incredibly important to them - has nothing to do with your job. Of course, the ability to empathise is a good (and very useful) one, but there's a sensible middle ground.

Don't be put off by the 'emotionally draining' catchphrase that's always thrown around when it's mentioned. It's really not that bad if you're able to distance yourself. Of course, some people think they can do this, start practising it, and then realise that they really, really can't - and so they move on.

A good rule of thumb is that every area of law has bad, annoying clients. Family law just happens to deal with an area that's emotionally charged. If you can put up with annoying, emotional clients, you'll be fine.

Now sex crime victims compensation... that can be draining after a while. Or desensitizing, but in a way that's probably not much healthier than heroin.

[Hiphoppa]

Thanks for your advice, you made lots of good points.

Depends on the student. I honestly don't do any study, unless it's for a specific assignment, or I'm cramming for final exams (thank you for your question by the way, you are allowing me to procrastinate Property and Trusts for a few more minutes). Other law students I know have no social life and spend their free time studying, but do not necessarily get better marks than me. You've done a degree, so you have some idea as to what your abilities are - just make sure you know them, and adjust accordingly. If you need 5 hours of study per subject per week, do that, otherwise just do what you're comfortable with.

Well it was handy to get another perspective on this. Some uni websites claim 10 hours per subject, per week which I thought was a bit much. The only thing is that my current degree was almost all assignment based. We had a few small class tests, but no exams. I guess this aspect will take a bit of effort to get used to.

I don't quite understand. You want big firms, but not top tier? (so, mid tier?)

If so I'm not really an expert on that area, but this forum is full of people who are.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I meant to ask what are the biggest law firms that practice in the area of family law? I’m under the impression that top-tier firms specialise more in the commercial side of things.

In practice, the only part time lawyers I've seen are those working in the navy reserves as military lawyers, and paralegals (who aren't lawyers at all). I think a part time solicitor's position in any mid to top tier firm would be rarer than sensible NSW legislation, so I don't like your chances. Some council offices might have something up that ally, though again, the only part time positions I've seen advertised are for paralegals. Employers tend to be pretty generous with maternity leave these days thanks to anti-discrimination reforms, so you could always... well, I think you know what to do.

Hmm, I thought as much. I’ve seen ads here and there for part-time lawyers but they’re mainly in legal aid or non-for-profit organisations. I wouldn’t mind the former if it came down to it.

Thanks again

[Season]

2 - Is your ENTER score considered in the application? My ENTER was 83.5 which although doesn't sound like much, was quite hard to get considering where I went to school.

I very much doubt it, I know UAI is still counted if you are trying to transfer say one year/two into your degree, but if you've actually finished your undergraduate degree I see no reason whatsoever of them looking at it.

You might wish to contact Monash to confirm this though...

3- Roughly how much time is spent studying for each subject weekly?

Judging from my brothers workloads, its really up to you. Some people just want to pass, and others they want the high distinctions. My brother stays at the uni usually from 9-5 4 days a week and he usually averages distinctions... then again, I don't follow him around the uni :P It just really depends upon what you want out of the course to see how much study you do.

6- Is it possible to work as a lawyer part-time? I've just graduated from a Communications degree, majoring in journalism and PR, and would like to combine both these areas. Ideally, I'd like to practice law roughly 3-4 days a week, while also having time to do freelance writing. I've read an American article which says that apparently, it is quite common for journalism students to also study law.

Yeah I've heard of women turning part timers when they have children, usually they work out an agreement with their firms though. I know one of them was yeah she could work 3 days, but she could be contacted via phone at any time... so there are restrictions.

But it really depends on where you work, I'm sure if you worked for legal aid, they wouldn't might if you were part time or not.

As for journalism, my father was a journalist who "did law for fun" (got bloody honours for fun too), but the thing is he's never practised as a lawyer and he doesn't intend too. Its useful especially in regards to political reporting and working for big newspapers such as the Age or the Australian.

I have never heard of a lawyer practising and writing...

7 - I'm really passionate about working in the family law field, however I've heard that it can be very draining emotionally. Can someone give me a bit of insight into this? Does it usually require long hours?

Yeah it would be draining, but I can see that happening in criminal law/medicine/social work/nursing/teaching etc. Its an occupational hazard of working with people. I imagine criminal law would be worse.

Also a lot of family law is about quibbles, at least on a legal aid level it is. If you want some idea of what'd it be like, pop down to your local magistrates court and just sit down for a few of the nutcases that come up. You'll get an idea of it then. (yes I just made a huge generalisation I know). However as said above, you get used to it, sure there will always be cases that touch you, but you learn to remove yourself emotional side of it. Most lawyers/doctors come to think of it as "I can't help others if I'm bogged down with grief'.

[RogueAcademic]

Originally Posted by Hiphoppa

2 - Is your ENTER score considered in the application? My ENTER was 83.5 which although doesn't sound like much, was quite hard to get considering where I went to school.

For grad law or a JD they will usually look at your bachelor degree academic record only.

[Hiphoppa]

Originally Posted by Season

Judging from my brothers workloads, its really up to you. Some people just want to pass, and others they want the high distinctions. My brother stays at the uni usually from 9-5 4 days a week and he usually averages distinctions... then again, I don't follow him around the uni :P It just really depends upon what you want out of the course to see how much study you do.

Well I'd hope to maintain a distinction average but from what I've heard, law assignments/exams are marked quite harshly so I guess I'll see how I go.

As for journalism, my father was a journalist who "did law for fun" (got bloody honours for fun too), but the thing is he's never practised as a lawyer and he doesn't intend too. Its useful especially in regards to political reporting and working for big newspapers such as the Age or the Australian.

I have never heard of a lawyer practising and writing...

Lol well I'm the type of person that wants to do everything at once I guess. Sucker for pain I am. When I say write, I mean freelance btw. Obviously I wouldn't be able to work as a staff writer while also practising.

Yeah it would be draining, but I can see that happening in criminal law/medicine/social work/nursing/teaching etc. Its an occupational hazard of working with people. I imagine criminal law would be worse.

Also a lot of family law is about quibbles, at least on a legal aid level it is. If you want some idea of what'd it be like, pop down to your local magistrates court and just sit down for a few of the nutcases that come up. You'll get an idea of it then. (yes I just made a huge generalisation I know). However as said above, you get used to it, sure there will always be cases that touch you, but you learn to remove yourself emotional side of it. Most lawyers/doctors come to think of it as "I can't help others if I'm bogged down with grief'.

That's a good way to look at it. I've sat in on a few cases when we were doing court reporting in class so I have some idea, but I haven't observed anything directly in the family area.

One more question just out of curiousity, do most law students/lecturers tend to be conservative or is there somewhat of a balance with left-leaning (lack of a better word) ones? I'm under the impression it'd mainly be the former

[Frigid]

Originally Posted by Hiphoppa

One more question just out of curiousity, do most law students/lecturers tend to be conservative or is there somewhat of a balance with left-leaning (lack of a better word) ones? I'm under the impression it'd mainly be the former

you'll find a great diversity of students and lecturers at university; schools of law are no different. in my experience, i have met:-

- plenty of freshly-minted HSC graduates;
- a retired butcher who came to study graduate law;
- a singaporean graphic designer who came to study graduate law;
- several european lawyers who came to UNSW to study their masters;

i have met shy people, loud people, people who strongly political, people who love to act, sing, play music, people who like to argue. i have met voters of both side of the political spectrum. i have met asians (there's lots of them at UNSW!) and caucasians. I have met HECS students and full fee students. There's also a significant portion of international students.

of lecturers and teachers i have met:

- a lecturer who retrained as a common law lawyer having been a civil law lawyer;
- a lecturer from china who came to UNSW to complete his PhD in securities law (specifically, insider trading in different countries);
- a lecturer who worked at redfern legal centre;
- a lecturer who was awarded a Rhodes scholarship, went to Oxford to do masters, worked at some of the biggest management consultancy, investment banks and law firms;
- a lecturer who teaches both law and japanese at university...


in summary, yes, there is a diverse range of people in law school; you will surely find like-minded souls.