'Law school applicants compete for fewer places'

[Graney]

You can hide this advertisement by registering.

Originally Posted by Season

Family friends all say that if i go to uni, if I have a law degree it proves that I'm smart, while the other degree proves I'm qualified.

Your family friends are pretty pretentious, hey.

[Season]

Originally Posted by Graney

Your family friends are pretty pretentious, hey.

Yeah... see my father used to be involved in the jewish community in Sydney... they are the equivalent to the modern day "asian" reference

[RogueAcademic]

Im my opinion, broadly speaking, medicine as a profession is served much better as a graduate degree. The crux of the profession centres around gaining enough medical knowledge to correctly diagnose and appropriately treat the patient but an often neglected aspect for many is the doctor-patient relationship, something which medical educators are trying to fix by introducing it early in 'new and improved' medical courses. A little bit of life experience goes a long way in this area, as well as the maturity that (you'd expect) comes with life experience. Medicine is a very demanding career choice. It requires constant lifelong learning and focus, something which I think an older applicant has a better chance of making an informed decision about, as opposed to a school leaver. Broadly speaking of course.

The function of a graduate JD degree in law on the other hand is to distinguish law graduates with a very different experience and background than the average school leaver. The JD application process takes into account more than just high school marks so I would think that the JD has a more equitable entry point. Most (if not all) law degree applicants will have a great academic record anyway, JD graduates will come out with something extra to offer which school leavers don't have. Law is also a very demanding career where an older applicant has had more time to make a well-informed decision about the career choice.

[Metric]

Originally Posted by Season

I don't know about the other universities but ANU is against it, while it may go down that path someday in the future... that won't be anytime soon.

ANU is a case in point of how I think things should work: they have a graduate medicine program, to which you are admitted based upon your GPA and GAMSAT results. I think they also have a program where students with 98+ UAI's are given a provisional offer to graduate medicine? (provided they maintain a certain GPA)

Originally Posted by Season

So many people now treat a law degree as a "quasi-arts" degree

True, this is one of the arguments people put forwards for graduate law- most school leavers have no idea what they really want to do, and law seems an attractive option due to percieved prestige, potential renumeration, etc.

Originally Posted by RogueAcademic

The JD application process takes into account more than just high school marks so I would think that the JD has a more equitable entry point. Most (if not all) law degree applicants will have a great academic record anyway, JD graduates will come out with something extra to offer which school leavers don't have. Law is also a very demanding career where an older applicant has had more time to make a well-informed decision about the career choice.

This is the gist of why I'm trying to say

[RogueAcademic]

Originally Posted by Season

b)unlike lawyers, people seem to trust doctors, in fact there is this idea that if you do what the doctor says exactly then everything will be okay.

That's true up to a certain point, just look at all the lawyer jokes out there. But people make fun of lawyers until they need one. From that point, your comment about doctors above applies to the lawyer as well.

Originally Posted by Season

c)you do medicine YOU BECOME A DOCTOR, you do law... you have a 40% of being a lawyer

That's also true for the most part. But keep in mind that there are more law courses out there than medical courses. The opportunities for law graduates is much much more competitive than for medical graduates. I don't know about your quoted '40%' chance of being a lawyer but it's also as much to do with an overloaded system.

Originally Posted by Season

d) medicine is not just a 5 year degree, you're looking more like 11 years of training before you can get out, and that's just for a GP.

It doesn't take that long to be a GP. Even so, after gaining qualifications from a specialist medical college, the medical practitioner is still expected to keep their medical knowledge up to date through personal study. Medical graduates also start making a decent amount of money right after graduation too.

[melsc]

By the way lawyers have to continue legal education throughout their career to remain qualified.

[RogueAcademic]

Originally Posted by melsc

By the way lawyers have to continue legal education throughout their career to remain qualified.

That is a given, yes. It also depends on which jurisdiction and the requirements of your local legal institute/association.

[Season]

ANU is a case in point of how I think things should work: they have a graduate medicine program, to which you are admitted based upon your GPA and GAMSAT results. I think they also have a program where students with 98+ UAI's are given a provisional offer to graduate medicine? (provided they maintain a certain GPA)

I was actually referring to law, not medicine, but yes you're right ANU only has grad med

That's also true for the most part. But keep in mind that there are more law courses out there than medical courses. The opportunities for law graduates is much much more competitive than for medical graduates.

My point is that if you do a law degree =/= becoming a lawyer, while medicine does. This justifies the crazy admissions system. In fact as long as you graduate, you are guaranteed a job. If you get into medicine and you've found out you've made a mistake, its very hard to get out of it. Unlike law where most graduates don't end up even practising.

True, this is one of the arguments people put forwards for graduate law- most school leavers have no idea what they really want to do, and law seems an attractive option due to percieved prestige, potential renumeration, etc.

So some naive kid gets into law and finds out that it isn't for them... what is the problem with this? They'll learn a lesson, the government gets paid, and people who are happy. They aren't stuck in the profession and the people who missed out first time round can try an alternative route.

It doesn't take that long to be a GP. Even so, after gaining qualifications from a specialist medical college, the medical practitioner is still expected to keep their medical knowledge up to date through personal study. Medical graduates also start making a decent amount of money right after graduation too.

WRONG

GP
6 year medical degree + internship year + 3.5 GP training program = 10.5 years

Physician
'6 year medical degree+ internship year + 6 years (mind you most people fail the final exam and end up making that 7 years) = 13+

etc.
I know what I'm talking about

[RogueAcademic]

Originally Posted by Season

If you get into medicine and you've found out you've made a mistake, its very hard to get out of it.

What exactly do you mean "it's very hard to get out of it"? People get out of it all the time either by quitting the course midway through, or after graduation, or after internship, or beyond that. There are plenty of opportunities for medical graduates in consulting, R&D, even hospital administration. Others go on to postgrad study in a completely different area.

Originally Posted by Season

WRONG

GP
6 year medical degree + internship year + 3.5 GP training program = 10.5 years

We are talking about grad med here, 4 years. Plus 1 year internship, another couple of years in GP training after that, maybe 8 years all up.

[Season]

Originally Posted by RogueAcademic

What exactly do you mean "it's very hard to get out of it"? People get out of it all the time either by quitting the course midway through, or after graduation, or after internship, or beyond that. There are plenty of opportunities for medical graduates in consulting, R&D, even hospital administration. Others go on to postgrad study in a completely different area.

With the current doctor shortage, family pressure, society pressure, the fact that the degree isn't geared towards much else except medicine, yeah there is quite a bit of pressure in there. Unlike law where the pressure is non-existant.

We are talking about grad med here, 4 years. Plus 1 year internship, another couple of years in GP training after that, maybe 8 years all up.

Considering you can't get into grad medicine with high performance on an undergrad degree you have missed out 3 years.

3 + 4 +1 + 3.5 = 11.5 years minimum for a GP

not to mention those people who take an extra year to do honours/go travel/have a family etc.

[thegovernator]

how do you arrive at the conclusion that there is no pressure in studying law?

[ellasrules]

hey guys,
94.90 enter, u rekon that'll get me into arts at melb??
Do u think its extremely difficult to get into postgrad Law at melb? like it sed 70% is a H2 sumthing...high distincion i think...my god that sounds hard but i wana try my ass off.....
In my arts degree id love to transfer for like a semester to UCLA or sum Uni in the US, do u think that wuld make a stronger application??
what else can u do during ur arts degree or wateva degree undergrad, to make u a stronger candidate??

[ellasrules]

ps...sum1 sed sumthing like....the JD doesnt take into account only high skool marks...wtf??? dnt tell me ur enter is looked at when applying for the JD, 3 yrs after VCE!!???????

[himmy6996]

Season your an idiot - you seem to know about medicine career route and absolutely nothing else (although you imply knowledge as to the pressure, statistics and nature of a law degree).

Firstly, if you manage to pass the scrupulous tests for medicine and find out you suddenly don't like it a couple of years in, its very unlikely that with that intelligence no uni is gonna take you into the course you want. ""Don't like medicine!? Well thats your career over with then." stupid

Secondly the statistic you pulled for law, even if it is correct, just proves the diversity and complexity of skills or "qualifications" required for law (not just "smart" people) - legal skills open up a wide range of career paths. You said that most people considered law a quasi-arts degree - who is "most people" - your inner circle of arrogant family friends in the medical profession?

[Season]

Himmy and thegovernator

My knowledge of this lack of pressure is based on two main things

a) 47% of law grads, become lawyers Reference: http://www.theage.com.au/news/educat...575673097.html

b) While I do not do law, both my brothers do law and due to a number of organisations I have been involved in I actually have a lot of contact with current law students and many of them have stated that they have absolutely no intention of doing law.

Oh and since you made a big fuss about my family background let me enlighten you about my family. My father did law for fun, both my brothers are doing law, my cousin did law and is currently working for Macquarie bank. Our family discussions are debates about politics, and what can I say- we entertain quite a bit. I also enjoy debating, public speaking, and organizations like UNYA. My favourite colour is blue and I like enjoy dancing in my spare time.
Interesting fact: I am first person to show an interest in science in my family.

Thank you for showing such a keen interest in my intelligence and family friends, I'm very proud of who I am and its nice to see that people who know nothing about my life take precious time to point out how awesome it is. Much appreciated