Chance of Practicing as a Lawyer?

[Ben.Civiletti]

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Hi,



All those people don't become lawyers do they? I'm worried about chasing ambulances for making a living.

[Ben.Civiletti]

bump

[MichaelJackson2]

My theory, though slightly contradictory, is that it's easier to get into a top tier firm than a mid-tier or small (but reputable) firm. For instance, earlier in the year I got a clerkship interview at a big 6 firm when all my clerkship applications for the mid-tiers were rejected. I reckon that top tier firms look for potential and have a lot of resources to train you up whereas mid-tiers and small firms have to be more selective and are more risk-averse because they don't have the resources to offer you comprehensive training and thus you have to be great from day one. That probably doesn't answer your question but I guess if you have mediocre marks but have an awesome extra-curricular achievement, say representing your uni and winning a national mooting competition, then I think you would have a fair chance of getting an interview at a big 6 firm.

[Marmalade.]

I agree that it is almost easier to get into a top tier firm than a mid-tier firm, given that top-tiers hire many more people, so the mid-tiers can be very, very selective as they only hire a few.

I have heard that if your marks are too high, smaller firms will reject you on the assumption that you will go to a big firm.

[dste6]

My law faculty has indicated only about 40% of graduates go on to practice law as solicitor/barrister, so no, not all of those people become lawyers. Though that's really a retention figure; I imagine a far greater percentage would at least be doing clerkship and articles.

People's personal and anecdotal experiences aside, I find it hard to believe that its collectively easier to get a position at the top tier firms than mid/small tier firms. There are very few top tier firms, and while they each may hire a larger number of people, there are many dozens of reputable mid and small tier firms. Even 100's if you forget overall prestige and realize that many have a good name in one area of practice.

You can reasonably assume that most of the graduate pool is going into mid/small tier.

I wouldn't worry about chasing ambulances, if that's what you don't want to do. There is enough demand for competent law graduates inside + outside the legal industry, that you'll find interesting work if you make informed decisions. Sometimes that means not worrying about the top tier (overrated?) and looking at mid/small tier, inhouse counsel, public positions, business consultancies.

[dste6]

My law faculty has indicated only about 40% of graduates go on to practice law as solicitor/barrister, so no, not all of those people become lawyers. Though that's really a retention figure; I imagine a far greater percentage would at least be doing clerkship and articles.

People's personal and anecdotal experiences aside, I find it hard to believe that its collectively easier to get a position at the top tier firms than mid/small tier firms. There are very few top tier firms, and while they each may hire a larger number of people, there are many dozens of reputable mid and small tier firms. Even 100's if you forget overall prestige and realize that many have a good name in one area of practice.

You can reasonably assume that most of the graduate pool is going into mid/small tier.

I wouldn't worry about chasing ambulances, if that's what you don't want to do. There is enough demand for competent law graduates inside + outside the legal industry, that you'll find interesting work if you make informed decisions. Sometimes that means not worrying about the top tier (overrated?) and looking at mid/small tier, inhouse counsel, public positions, business consultancies.

[MichaelJackson2]

I concur. A law degree opens many doors. For instance, Ahn Do, who graduated with B.Com/LLB at UTS, is now a successful comedian making regular appearances on "Thank God You're Here".

[Ben.Civiletti]

Thanks for all your responses. Much appreciated.

I'm still quite apprehensive about career prospects though. Getting a clerkship even for small firms will be difficult and even employment after GDLP if i dont get a clerkship will still be a challenge.

I think it would be much easier had i got into UNSW/USyd but no offence to mac/uts/uws but it will be difficult.

[Ben.Civiletti]

Originally Posted by MichaelJackson2

I concur. A law degree opens many doors. For instance, Ahn Do, who graduated with B.Com/LLB at UTS, is now a successful comedian making regular appearances on "Thank God You're Here".

didn't he go to UNSW? and then drop out? i remember he got a scholarship for a prestigious school in sydney then went to UNSW only to drop out.

[dste6]

yeah, I'm hoping that my degree will improve my future prospects, as a street mime..

[rubin]

Originally Posted by dste6

My law faculty has indicated only about 40% of graduates go on to practice law as solicitor/barrister, so no, not all of those people become lawyers. Though that's really a retention figure; I imagine a far greater percentage would at least be doing clerkship and articles.

People's personal and anecdotal experiences aside, I find it hard to believe that its collectively easier to get a position at the top tier firms than mid/small tier firms. There are very few top tier firms, and while they each may hire a larger number of people, there are many dozens of reputable mid and small tier firms. Even 100's if you forget overall prestige and realize that many have a good name in one area of practice.

You can reasonably assume that most of the graduate pool is going into mid/small tier.

I wouldn't worry about chasing ambulances, if that's what you don't want to do. There is enough demand for competent law graduates inside + outside the legal industry, that you'll find interesting work if you make informed decisions. Sometimes that means not worrying about the top tier (overrated?) and looking at mid/small tier, inhouse counsel, public positions, business consultancies.

A few points to clarify.

1. Only a select group of firms participate in the official NSW clerkship program. This year it is 27 firms and government bodies. Of the participating firms, they are predominantly large ones with upwards of 100 lawyers. Smaller firms may have 'clerkships' but they are not official and they do not follow the agreed time-frames and procedures eg. recruitment at different stages of the year, only advertised on the firm website etc.
2. It is not 'easier' to get a clerkship at the largest firms in the sense that most people simply do not have the required marks and other experiences. For persons with average marks it is easier to get a clerkship at a smaller or mid size firm and extremely difficult to get a clerkship at the largest firms. If you have a very high level of achievement then you have a good chance of being recruited to a large firm due to the size of the intake. Last year Freehills took the largest number of summer clerks at around 60. This changes from year to year and will probably drop considerably this year for all firms.
3. If you are determined to be a lawyer then you almost certainly will be. While you may not inititally get a clerkship at a large firm this is not the end. It is just a matter of applying for part time work at uni and applying to the many hundreds of firms in NSW once you graduate. You just need persistence and a flexible outlook on where you will start your career.

[rubin]

Originally Posted by Ben.Civiletti

Thanks for all your responses. Much appreciated.

I'm still quite apprehensive about career prospects though. Getting a clerkship even for small firms will be difficult and even employment after GDLP if i dont get a clerkship will still be a challenge.

I think it would be much easier had i got into UNSW/USyd but no offence to mac/uts/uws but it will be difficult.

I wouldnt deny that there is a slight bias by some firms towards those two universities, but ultimately in terms of getting a clerkship it has more to do with your grades, experiences achievements and quality of application. It definately would not be 'much easier' - you would still need a high level of achievement. In fact you would find some firms have recruitment policies that target the higher achieving students at the non-USYD/UNSW unis to compensate for the fact that other firms have a preference/bias, all other things equal, for students from those unis. I am at Macquarie and went through the process last year and most of my friends who had reasonably high grades (and some that didnt) got clerkships. I got an offer from one of the large firms (sits about 7th or 8th in terms of revenue) and the majority of offers were made to mac students (although of these most declined the offer and went to other firms).

Mind you I dont know what will happen this year because many firms have deferred grad offers to clerks from last year and I am pretty certain there will be a large cutback in intakes across the board.

[Marmalade.]

Originally Posted by MichaelJackson2

I concur. A law degree opens many doors. For instance, Ahn Do, who graduated with B.Com/LLB at UTS, is now a successful comedian making regular appearances on "Thank God You're Here".

He's not very funny though. People laugh on thank god you're here out of pity.

[dste6]

Does anyone know of any resource that lists/ranks firms (in terms of revenue, size, area of practice etc) nationally?

[rubin]

Originally Posted by dste6

Does anyone know of any resource that lists/ranks firms (in terms of revenue, size, area of practice etc) nationally?

The Australian Financial Review usually does a big feature article each year dealing with firm sizes, results etc. I dont have any link for you because its a subscription service online and I read it in hard copy last year, but from memory the top ten firms for revenue in 2008 were in this order
1. Minters
2. Mallesons
3. Freehills
4. Clayton Utz
5. Allens
6. Blake Dawson
7. Corrs
8. Deacons
9. DLA
10. Baker & McKenzie

I am sure of this for the 6 to 10, but I may have got some mixed up from 1 to 5. The article I saw had many different lists like partner size, profitability etc. so my memory might not be perfect for 1-5, but I am certain the AFR noted these 10 firms as largest on revenue for 2008.