UNSW vs UWS Law

[samhamlet]

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UNSW requires 99.4 ATAR for entry into Commerce/Law, while UWS requires only 90.something.

I want to do Law, but am highly doubtful I'll get the 99.4 required for UNSW, but will definately get >90.

What differences are there between the two unis in studying Law in terms of:
1) quality of education.
2) future prospects - does one uni have a greater chance of success (career opportunities) than the other?

Thanks

[munchiecrunchie]

i think your future prospects would be a bit shaky - i know from just speaking to lawyers that usyd/unsw law is looked upon much more favourably.

[flamearrows]

To be competitive in the major commercial law firms, you would need to be in the top 5-10% at UWS, whereas you'd get away with being in the top 20-30% at UNSW. You might also have a very hard time if your aspirations include investment banking or management consulting.

I don't know about the difference in the quality of the education, though I suspect that UNSW and USyd would be better.

[Nebuchanezzar]

just do grad law eh?

[hYperTrOphY]

Originally Posted by flamearrows

To be competitive in the major commercial law firms, you would need to be in the top 5-10% at UWS, whereas you'd get away with being in the top 20-30% at UNSW.

It is probably the case that being in the top 5-10% is no more difficult than being in the top 20-30% at UNSW though.

[Frigid]

Originally Posted by samhamlet

What differences are there between the two unis in studying Law in terms of:
1) quality of education.
2) future prospects - does one uni have a greater chance of success (career opportunities) than the other?

1) statistically significant differences.
2) statistically significant differences.

[samhamlet]

Say I come top 5% in UWS Law. What differences are there in careers opportunities than coming top 20% in UNSW Law?

[flamearrows]

Originally Posted by samhamlet

Say I come top 5% in UWS Law. What differences are there in careers opportunities than coming top 20% in UNSW Law?

I think that you would still struggle to be competitive in applications for management consulting firms and investment banks. Any firm that trades heavily off prestige, basically.

Now, if you got the medal in law from UWS it would be a different story.

[samhamlet]

How do you get a medal?
And why is that so different?

[flamearrows]

Originally Posted by samhamlet

How do you get a medal?
And why is that so different?

Medal (University medal) in law means you came first in your year for law.

[melsc]

Its mainly a perception thing. UWS is a newer university and is often seen as of a lower standard. I've been there and know people who still go there and while they have a great practical program and are working their students hard to be better regarded a lot of employers are don't know much about UWS or put a lot of stock in the prestige hype. Personally I think while it may impact on your first job, once you have been working no one will care where you have been to uni, the only places that really care are the top tier. I've actually encountered some great employers who don't care that I have been at UWS or MQ. In the end, your life isn't over if you only get into UWS, there are some great teachers and students there and if you do well you wont have a problem, Hyperthrophy has had some interviews by some big law firms and he's at UWS! There is always the option of transfer if you dont like it.

And as I have said in another thread similar to this

Originally Posted by melsc

Look, particularly for law their are some old school employers who believe university prestige is the be all and end all thus they hire from Sydney and perhaps UNSW.

But if my time at university has taught me anything prestige means jack for teaching quality, quality of students etc! Eventually this will get through to the profession and in it has in many places. (I think UWS law is much better than MQ in my experience)

Your best bet is to work hard, get some excellent work experience, do some extra-curriculars and get some good general life experience, this is the stuff that really counts and is being increasingly sought out by employers.

It really depends where you want to work but unless you want to work for some of the stuffy top tier firms then you should have a problem. If an employer looks down on you because of the university you went to then would you want to work for them? I know stacks of great law studentst from universities all over.

Best of luck and try not to let it get you down. Work hard and give it your best, prestige is becoming less of a deciding factor and hey in may be even different after you graduate in 5 years time!

[Lara1986]

To the OP -

What do you want to do with your law degree?

What kind of student would you say you are? i.e. committed, lazy, self motivated, reliant on peer pressure and competition etc?

What modes/types of learning are you more suited to?

Are you aiming for/do you need to rely on scholarships?

Where do you live and will you need to work more than 2 or so days a week?


These questions are integral to any comparative view of which uni you are more suited to.




Some points too that may be of interest that you may not be aware of, including some relatively recent/soon to be implemented developments at UWS:

* We are told that the Clinical Placement unit (which involves 10 days at Parra Justice Precinct's legal centre, 10 days which can be deducted from your PLT placement which is a big plus) will become compulsory.

* Ex-justice Kirby is now an adjunct Professor

* Course structure has recently been reviewed and now you address the main 'ethics' unit early in the degree.

* UWS has fully operational 'moot courts' that you will more or less work with on a weekly basis in the skills units in the later stages of the degree.

* There is now an Honours Research unit that students undertake in order to attain their honours, rather than it being awarded on marks alone as in the past.

* There are a broader range of electives being offered (in my opinion) than in the past

* The coordinator of the prac related programs in the law school mentioned an intention for much of the practical related components of the degree to be run out of the parra justice precinct legal centre

[Lara1986]

Originally Posted by melsc

Its mainly a perception thing. UWS is a newer university and is often seen as of a lower standard. I've been there and know people who still go there and while they have a great practical program and are working their students hard to be better regarded a lot of employers are don't know much about UWS or put a lot of stock in the prestige hype. Personally I think while it may impact on your first job, once you have been working no one will care where you have been to uni, the only places that really care are the top tier. I've actually encountered some great employers who don't care that I have been at UWS or MQ. In the end, your life isn't over if you only get into UWS, there are some great teachers and students there and if you do well you wont have a problem, Hyperthrophy has had some interviews by some big law firms and he's at UWS! There is always the option of transfer if you dont like it.

And as I have said in another thread similar to this

Further to what Mel said - Yes, I know these examples are far fewer than those found in other unis - but keep in mind the less than fantastic opinion some have of UWS, it's relatively short history and so on - if your idea of 'success' is based on top tier firms, associateships and so on -->

UWS students have attained positions as High Court, Family Court and other Associates. I personally have had interviews for Supreme Court Associateship and whilst I did not get the position as there was far more qualified and intelligent people who were also candidates, the fact that I was considered shows that those who say UWS students will not be considered for such positions are incorrect. Supreme Court judges are busy people and I do not imagine they will waste their time on interviewing students at UWS if they did not believe they were valid candidates.

There are UWS students working in top tier firms - whilst this may not be as common as other unis, it happens so it shows that the fact that you are UWS will not necessitate failure in such pursuits. If you work hard and gain useful experience, you can achieve these higher positions. (With the exception of one firm which I will not name to avoid arguments as this particular firm has openly told UWS students they will not consider them. However that is not the case with all the top tier firms).


That said - if you are happy working in a large western sydney firm, many of these firms prioritise hiring students who reside in or attend uni in Western Sydney. So if that is your career goal in the short or long term, attending UWS or other 'non-city' unis and achieving highly may in fact be of assistance in this regard.

If you are excited by taxation law (for some bizarre reason ), UWS students are apparently regard so if you want to work in tax law, particularly at the ATO, studying at UWS will not be a barrier.

If you have academia as a career direction in mind, the fact that there is now an Honours Research unit may cast UWS in a more positive light, by comparison with the previous lack of such a unit.

Also - FYI should any arguments arise, as they always seem to where UWS is mentioned, I am in my final semester of a combined law degree at UWS and I have an above Distinction GPA so I'm not a newbie who is yet to experience the crap aspects of UWS, nor am I a "Ps get degrees" student who has no real ambition and does not care about my degree

[bryandawn]

I personally do not see a point having a discussion on UNSW v UWS law. I imagine those who can gain entry to UNSW law will not generally choose to go to UWS, unless there is some special consideration such as an offer of scholarship by UWS, or location and transport which makes it significantly difficult for one to travel to UNSW.
UWS is a younger uni, and its law school is young. Prestige-wise, UNSW does enjoy a higher prestige. I've never studied at UNSW, so I can't judge what the teaching is like over there.
I'm a first year Arts/Law UWS student, and I'm one of the better performing students at law (I hope my performance at my Arts units were as good as my law units). And last semester, I got a Distinction for Torts, and my lecturer Assoc. Professor Robert Hayes told us that each year, he could generally secure 4 summer clerkship positions, 2 at Motor Accidents Authority, and 2 at Workers Compensation Commission. I applied for a position, he interviewed me. After he got my Torts result, he recommended me, and I just got an offer for summer clerkship at WCC. Now, I'm only a first year student, haven't finished my 2nd semester yet. Summer clerkships normally are only for students in their final 2 years of studies, so I feel privileged to be able to work as a summer clerk right after my 1st year.
Also, we do learn practical skills right from our first year. If you're doing a combined degree, you get to do a moot bail for your criminal law unit which is a first year unit. If you were doing a straight law degree, then you do 2 moots, one is the bail, the other is for property law. Both are important assessments for their respective units.
For the unit of Advocacy, former NSW Supreme Court justice Brian Sully as an adjunct professor has been teaching this unit for a whole semester a year. You don't usually have a retired judge teaching you a whole unit.
Steven Freeland, who is an international-law academic, is a visiting professional at the International Criminal Court in Hague half a year out of every year.
Now Michael Kirby just became an adjunct professor at UWS, I don't know whether he will be teaching a whole unit like Brian Sully has been doing, but he seems pretty busy with other commitments, too.
One thing about UWS that I wouldn't wish to lose is the timetable flexibility in terms of if you get online fast and register the preferred timetable. I'm studying full time 4 units, and I only need to attend uni 2 days a week.