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Thread: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

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    LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    So the bachelor of law (transfer/combined degree/graduate) is an area im interested in pursuing.

    Aiming for as high as possible ATAR... >90?

    And what's the deal with graduate entry and stuff? Also the transfer system???
    Basically if you know anything relevent about law @ unis and getting into it ie. pathways, don't hesitate to reply ;D
    Last edited by Existential; 1 Jun 2010 at 3:03 PM.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Tip: 2U is not advanced.

    Depending on what university you want to attend will cause the ATAR needed to vary. I suggest you read up on the actual courses of ALL universities that you can comfortably get to, (yes, even UWS) to determine which course is right for you. All of them are 90+ though. (refer to: http://www.uac.edu.au/documents/atar...utoff-main.pdf for specifics)

    Graduate entry refers to those who have already completed an undergraduate degree and wish to apply for a degree in Law.

    Even if you don't get the ATAR you need, you can transfer into the law course after completing a year (or semester at some universities) in another. They don't always have to be related. You do need relatively good marks, though.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Existential View Post
    So the bachelor of law, esp. combined degrees, is an area im interested in pursuing.

    With these HSC subjects:
    Adv Eng, Adv Maths, Bio, Geo, Legal, Society.

    Aiming for as high as possible ATAR... >90?

    And what's the deal with graduate entry and stuff? So i need requirements for undergraduate but how does it work for graduates (out of curiosity)?
    Basically if you know anything relevent about law @ unis and getting into it ie. pathways, don't hesitate to reply ;D
    Aside from English (Advanced) there are no prerequisites for law. However to my knowledge most universities will make you combine it with another degree if you are doing undergrad and so you will need to check out prerequisites/recommended knowledge for that second degree.
    ATAR with law is generally very competitive and this is generally the case from year to year. To my knowledge relating to last year's cut-offs:
    USYD: 99.65 (There is a Broadway scheme that you can apply to if you've experienced disadvantage but the ATAR cut-off generally also ends up being around 97)
    UNSW: 99.55 (You can however get an extra 5 points if you get the AAA scholarship or fulfill some other categories (you can get 1-5 bonus points) e.g. Duke of Ed, School Captain...don't exactly remember all the details. Note this is NOT the same as their HSC-Plus Program)
    Macquarie: Generally around 95-96 I'm not sure of any bonus point schemes
    UTS: Generally around 97-98
    UWS: Generally around 90ish. You can get bonus points if you live in the GWS and for getting certain bands in certain subjects like maths and legal studies I think for law. Again I'm sketchy on the details so best to also look this one up.
    ANU: 96 or so
    These are the main universities that offer law in Sydney (well I also included ANU) though I'm sketchy on some of the details and may have slightly outdated information. You can also get bonus points through EAS so see if you're eligible.
    In regards to transfers I only know about USyd though I'd assume the system would be pretty similar elsewhere. At USyd for 2nd year transfers they take half your ATAR (recommended to be 95+) and half your first year GPA (recommended a distinction average) (or just your GPA if it's exceptional) and if you're in the top few then you can transfer.
    Graduate law again I only know about at USyd (you can tell I'm a USyd student) but they recommend 90+ ATAR and at least a high credit GPA. Graduate law, as has been said, is basically when you do a law degree after you finish your first degree. It really only means that you add a year to your degree compared to doing combined law.
    Anyway, the most important thing if you're intending on applying for law is to get a good ATAR since it entry so competitive. I wish you luck in your HSC and hope I was of some help though probably research/ask your career's adviser for more specific information.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Existential View Post
    So the bachelor of law, esp. combined degrees, is an area im interested in pursuing.

    With these HSC subjects:
    Adv Eng, Adv Maths, Bio, Geo, Legal, Society.

    Aiming for as high as possible ATAR... >90?

    And what's the deal with graduate entry and stuff? So i need requirements for undergraduate but how does it work for graduates (out of curiosity)?
    Basically if you know anything relevent about law @ unis and getting into it ie. pathways, don't hesitate to reply ;D
    LAW isnot really hard to get into, if you got to UWS, u only need 80's with bonus points to get in. UNSW on the otherhand is quite easy as well. U need to get around 92-95 with bonus points and u'll get into law. I know that people would say that not everybody get bonus points, but if you do good in some of your subjects relating to Law, then u might get a fair bit of bonus points. So try ur best.
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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Alot of these uiniversities exclude law and business from their bonus points scheme by the way. You should also consider newcastle university as an option. ATAR for 2010 was 92 ish I think. Basically, getting 90+ ATAR will get you into any law degree at any university, either through ATAR, transfer or graduate. The key for transfer/graduate is to have a good consistent GPA (Grade Point Average).

    Goodluck

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by William kamel View Post
    LAW isnot really hard to get into, if you got to UWS, u only need 80's with bonus points to get in. UNSW on the otherhand is quite easy as well. U need to get around 92-95 with bonus points and u'll get into law. I know that people would say that not everybody get bonus points, but if you do good in some of your subjects relating to Law, then u might get a fair bit of bonus points. So try ur best.
    There is no HSC plus for UNSW Law.
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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaz1 View Post
    There is no HSC plus for UNSW Law.
    Yes. That is correct but they have this elite athletes and performers scheme which I'm pretty certain can be used for law (since I had a few friends get into UNSW law under this scheme).
    Here's the information link:
    UNSW: The University of New South Wales - Sydney Australia - FUTURE STUDENTS
    And here's the link to the table that lists out the various things you can get the points for:
    http://www.unsw.edu.au/images/ced/UN...ers2010pdf.pdf

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by zzzz12345 View Post
    Yes. That is correct but they have this elite athletes and performers scheme which I'm pretty certain can be used for law (since I had a few friends get into UNSW law under this scheme).
    Here's the information link:
    UNSW: The University of New South Wales - Sydney Australia - FUTURE STUDENTS
    And here's the link to the table that lists out the various things you can get the points for:
    http://www.unsw.edu.au/images/ced/UN...ers2010pdf.pdf
    This surprises me, particularly since it apparently applies to 'elite performers' like school captains. I suspect there's a lot more flexibility in the points that they grant than is being made out.
    B. Com. (Acct.) / LL. B. (UNSW)

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by William kamel View Post
    LAW isnot really hard to get into, if you got to UWS, u only need 80's with bonus points to get in. UNSW on the otherhand is quite easy as well. U need to get around 92-95 with bonus points and u'll get into law. I know that people would say that not everybody get bonus points, but if you do good in some of your subjects relating to Law, then u might get a fair bit of bonus points. So try ur best.
    So true.

    I know so many people who got into UNSW law with bonus points, about 40% of current UNSW law students got in through transfer or bonus points.

    Two of my friends and I scored 99.4, 99.45 and 99.5 respectively and did not get in because of the ATAR rise to 99.55

    So essentially what I'm saying is USE BONUS POINTS.

    I think for USYD it's a lot more difficult to get bonus points.

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    Senior Member Existential's Avatar
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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolsmith View Post
    Tip: 2U is not advanced.

    Depending on what university you want to attend will cause the ATAR needed to vary. I suggest you read up on the actual courses of ALL universities that you can comfortably get to, (yes, even UWS) to determine which course is right for you. All of them are 90+ though. (refer to: http://www.uac.edu.au/documents/atar...utoff-main.pdf for specifics)

    Graduate entry refers to those who have already completed an undergraduate degree and wish to apply for a degree in Law.

    Even if you don't get the ATAR you need, you can transfer into the law course after completing a year (or semester at some universities) in another. They don't always have to be related. You do need relatively good marks, though.
    2U Mathematics is Advanced. 3U and 4U are Extension 1 and 2. thats the general consensus. Anyways thats beside the topic.

    Regarding the transfer, let's just say the scenario is this:

    I get 96 but need a crazy ATAR like 99.55 or something..... so i do a semester/year of another (relevant?) degree at any uni, then i can transfer into the (combined?) degree (at the uni i desire?)???? Would the uni accept that?

    because

    i dont really get the logic of that :S

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by zzzz12345 View Post
    Aside from English (Advanced) there are no prerequisites for law. However to my knowledge most universities will make you combine it with another degree if you are doing undergrad and so you will need to check out prerequisites/recommended knowledge for that second degree.
    ATAR with law is generally very competitive and this is generally the case from year to year. To my knowledge relating to last year's cut-offs:
    USYD: 99.65 (There is a Broadway scheme that you can apply to if you've experienced disadvantage but the ATAR cut-off generally also ends up being around 97)
    UNSW: 99.55 (You can however get an extra 5 points if you get the AAA scholarship or fulfill some other categories (you can get 1-5 bonus points) e.g. Duke of Ed, School Captain...don't exactly remember all the details. Note this is NOT the same as their HSC-Plus Program)
    Macquarie: Generally around 95-96 I'm not sure of any bonus point schemes
    UTS: Generally around 97-98
    UWS: Generally around 90ish. You can get bonus points if you live in the GWS and for getting certain bands in certain subjects like maths and legal studies I think for law. Again I'm sketchy on the details so best to also look this one up.
    ANU: 96 or so
    These are the main universities that offer law in Sydney (well I also included ANU) though I'm sketchy on some of the details and may have slightly outdated information. You can also get bonus points through EAS so see if you're eligible.
    In regards to transfers I only know about USyd though I'd assume the system would be pretty similar elsewhere. At USyd for 2nd year transfers they take half your ATAR (recommended to be 95+) and half your first year GPA (recommended a distinction average) (or just your GPA if it's exceptional) and if you're in the top few then you can transfer.
    Graduate law again I only know about at USyd (you can tell I'm a USyd student) but they recommend 90+ ATAR and at least a high credit GPA. Graduate law, as has been said, is basically when you do a law degree after you finish your first degree. It really only means that you add a year to your degree compared to doing combined law.
    Anyway, the most important thing if you're intending on applying for law is to get a good ATAR since it entry so competitive. I wish you luck in your HSC and hope I was of some help though probably research/ask your career's adviser for more specific information.
    yeah i think i'll have to do combined.... but when you say only one year extra for graduate entry....??? how does that work? is only some of the degree covered? :S

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    Senior Member Existential's Avatar
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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeysmall View Post
    Alot of these uiniversities exclude law and business from their bonus points scheme by the way. You should also consider newcastle university as an option. ATAR for 2010 was 92 ish I think. Basically, getting 90+ ATAR will get you into any law degree at any university, either through ATAR, transfer or graduate. The key for transfer/graduate is to have a good consistent GPA (Grade Point Average).

    Goodluck
    ahhhh yeah ok but i dont totally understand the transfer and graduate process lol.

    and since ive heard GPA over and over i assume that's your uni assessment average.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaz1 View Post
    There is no HSC plus for UNSW Law.
    What is HSC Plus? LOL i have so much to learn about unis.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaychouf4n View Post
    So true.

    I know so many people who got into UNSW law with bonus points, about 40% of current UNSW law students got in through transfer or bonus points.

    Two of my friends and I scored 99.4, 99.45 and 99.5 respectively and did not get in because of the ATAR rise to 99.55

    So essentially what I'm saying is USE BONUS POINTS.

    I think for USYD it's a lot more difficult to get bonus points.
    so if im not school captain or achieving sporting stuff i dont get get bonus points?

    what is the duke of Edinburg (probaly didnt write it correctly) gold award?

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Existential View Post
    ahhhh yeah ok but i dont totally understand the transfer and graduate process lol.

    and since ive heard GPA over and over i assume that's your uni assessment average.
    1) think of graduate law as a completely different entity. You do a three year degree (arts, commerce, whatever). Then apply to do graduate Bachelor of Laws (or JD depending on the university). This Bachelor of Laws/JD will three years in length. Total time spent at uni = 6 years.

    2) Combined law degrees mean that you do the first year of a law degree spread over three years of your arts/commerce/whatever degree. So you do three years (arts/commerce etc) with some law subjects included; then you do another two years of straight law degree. So total time spent at uni = 5 years.

    Thus, there is only one year difference between the two things. Either way you end up with a Bachelor of **** (arts/commerce etc) and a Bachelor of Laws (or JD).

    If you don't get into a combined law degree, you can apply to transfer. So, you pick a degree you want to do (that you are allowed to combine with law eg. arts or commerce), and make sure you do well in it. Then at the end of the first year, you can apply to transfer into a combined law degree- so in second year you will have to do a couple more law subjects to catch up on the ones you missed in first year, as well as continuing your initial degree (whether that was arts or commerce).

    At USYD for example, it is generally recommended that to get a transfer place you have a Distinction average and a UAI/ATAR of at least 95. It does not matter what degree you are doing (doesn't have to be relevant to law at all), or which university you were at (ie. you can transfer from ANU to USYD). Note: some universities do have a preferential transfer system, ie. they will give preference to students at thier own university to transfer into law over other universities- i believe this is the case at UNSW (but not at USYD).

    In terms of bonus points, you would have to look to the universities policies. USYD do not have many bonus points systems for law that I know of. Duke of Ed would not get you bonus points (at USYD anyway).

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by izzy88 View Post
    1) think of graduate law as a completely different entity. You do a three year degree (arts, commerce, whatever). Then apply to do graduate Bachelor of Laws (or JD depending on the university). This Bachelor of Laws/JD will three years in length. Total time spent at uni = 6 years.

    2) Combined law degrees mean that you do the first year of a law degree spread over three years of your arts/commerce/whatever degree. So you do three years (arts/commerce etc) with some law subjects included; then you do another two years of straight law degree. So total time spent at uni = 5 years.

    Thus, there is only one year difference between the two things. Either way you end up with a Bachelor of **** (arts/commerce etc) and a Bachelor of Laws (or JD).

    If you don't get into a combined law degree, you can apply to transfer. So, you pick a degree you want to do (that you are allowed to combine with law eg. arts or commerce), and make sure you do well in it. Then at the end of the first year, you can apply to transfer into a combined law degree- so in second year you will have to do a couple more law subjects to catch up on the ones you missed in first year, as well as continuing your initial degree (whether that was arts or commerce).

    At USYD for example, it is generally recommended that to get a transfer place you have a Distinction average and a UAI/ATAR of at least 95. It does not matter what degree you are doing (doesn't have to be relevant to law at all), or which university you were at (ie. you can transfer from ANU to USYD). Note: some universities do have a preferential transfer system, ie. they will give preference to students at thier own university to transfer into law over other universities- i believe this is the case at UNSW (but not at USYD).

    In terms of bonus points, you would have to look to the universities policies. USYD do not have many bonus points systems for law that I know of. Duke of Ed would not get you bonus points (at USYD anyway).
    thankyou - very good comment.

    anyone want to expand on the Duke of Ed?

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Existential View Post
    thankyou - very good comment.

    anyone want to expand on the Duke of Ed?
    extracurricular stuff. i forget what the exact requirements are but its something like

    xx hours of community service
    learn a new skill (driving, cooking etc)
    xx hours of field expeditions
    etc.

    its something like that, not 100% sure. and of course, the more hours you do of community service etc, the higher your "medal" is. ie. bronze > silver > gold.

    HSC 10 - Std English; 4u Maths; Economics; Accounting

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by izzy88 View Post
    1) think of graduate law as a completely different entity. You do a three year degree (arts, commerce, whatever). Then apply to do graduate Bachelor of Laws (or JD depending on the university). This Bachelor of Laws/JD will three years in length. Total time spent at uni = 6 years.

    2) Combined law degrees mean that you do the first year of a law degree spread over three years of your arts/commerce/whatever degree. So you do three years (arts/commerce etc) with some law subjects included; then you do another two years of straight law degree. So total time spent at uni = 5 years.

    Thus, there is only one year difference between the two things. Either way you end up with a Bachelor of **** (arts/commerce etc) and a Bachelor of Laws (or JD).

    If you don't get into a combined law degree, you can apply to transfer. So, you pick a degree you want to do (that you are allowed to combine with law eg. arts or commerce), and make sure you do well in it. Then at the end of the first year, you can apply to transfer into a combined law degree- so in second year you will have to do a couple more law subjects to catch up on the ones you missed in first year, as well as continuing your initial degree (whether that was arts or commerce).

    At USYD for example, it is generally recommended that to get a transfer place you have a Distinction average and a UAI/ATAR of at least 95. It does not matter what degree you are doing (doesn't have to be relevant to law at all), or which university you were at (ie. you can transfer from ANU to USYD). Note: some universities do have a preferential transfer system, ie. they will give preference to students at thier own university to transfer into law over other universities- i believe this is the case at UNSW (but not at USYD).

    In terms of bonus points, you would have to look to the universities policies. USYD do not have many bonus points systems for law that I know of. Duke of Ed would not get you bonus points (at USYD anyway).
    so graduate sounds good. if i did B. Arts for 3 years at a uni in Sydney, then applied for B. Laws (graduate entry) for the last 3... how hard would it be to get accepted? are graduates accepted based on competition with GPA's, or is my choice to enrol or not?

    and just to clarify... the B. Laws graduate is exactly the same as B. Laws combined (only for law)..?.. im talking content and qualifications here.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misyndo View Post
    extracurricular stuff. i forget what the exact requirements are but its something like

    xx hours of community service
    learn a new skill (driving, cooking etc)
    xx hours of field expeditions
    etc.

    its something like that, not 100% sure. and of course, the more hours you do of community service etc, the higher your "medal" is. ie. bronze > silver > gold.
    sounds gay lol. nvm that ill just earn my ATAR points the academic way

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Existential View Post
    so graduate sounds good. if i did B. Arts for 3 years at a uni in Sydney, then applied for B. Laws (graduate entry) for the last 3... how hard would it be to get accepted? are graduates accepted based on competition with GPA's, or is my choice to enrol or not?

    and just to clarify... the B. Laws graduate is exactly the same as B. Laws combined (only for law)..?.. im talking content and qualifications here.
    I believe people are accepted for graduate law based on GPA, but I'm not entirely sure. I would look to the USYD law school website for more exact information.

    As it stands:
    The Graduate Bachelor of Laws and the Combined Bachelor of Laws are exactly the same; ie. everyone comes out with a certificate saying 'Bachelor of Laws'. Content is identical.

    However, just to complicate things further:
    From 2011, the USYD Law School is replacing the Graduate Bachelor of Laws with the Juris Doctor (JD). This is slightly different to the Bachelor of Laws, there will be some different content (more internationally focused law subjects I believe), however the differences are not large. The JD is predominately being introduced by many law schools (UNSW, Melbourne etc) because they can have full-fee places in the JD (because the JD is classified as a post-graduate degree in terms of government rules etc). (As background, after the government refused to allow full-fee places to be charged for undergraduate degrees, many of the law schools saw a large decrease in money, thus the reason for the introduction of the JD- they need to recoup more money!)

    Another however for USYD though, is that there has now been discussions that the combined Bachelor of Laws will also be replaced with the combined JD. The Bachelor of Laws will no longer be offered, and it will just be either combined or graduate JD. This is still undergoing discussions, however I believe that the combined JD will probably be introduced in the next couple of years, and we will see the complete phase out of the Bachelor of Laws.

    There isn't a lot of information on the USYD JD at this point in time, however you can check the usyd website, or other threads on this forum, where the merits of the JD vs Bachelor of Laws has been discussed (because many of the universities are switching in the next couple of years).

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Like someone else said, also consider Newcastle. Although it's not as good as usyd, unsw etc, it does have a legal program where the college of law is taught concurrently with the law degree, which is looked upon quite favourably by some employers. The cut off there is around 93. If you really want to do law, you may as well have your bases covered.

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamima1986 View Post
    Like someone else said, also consider Newcastle. Although it's not as good as usyd, unsw etc, it does have a legal program where the college of law is taught concurrently with the law degree, which is looked upon quite favourably by some employers. The cut off there is around 93. If you really want to do law, you may as well have your bases covered.
    could you expand on this newcastle uni program please.

    and i know this may sound silly, but could you explain the difference between newcastle uni campared to usyd, unsw, ect.

    and what campuses at newcastle uni is this program available at?

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Existential View Post
    could you expand on this newcastle uni program please.

    and i know this may sound silly, but could you explain the difference between newcastle uni campared to usyd, unsw, ect.

    and what campuses at newcastle uni is this program available at?
    Callahan only I think.

    The law degree is not good though if you want to work in a 'prestigious' (for which read 'highly paid') job fresh out of university. You would need to be a seriously exceptional student to get a gig with a top tier law firm and you could almost forget about ibanking/management consulting.
    B. Com. (Acct.) / LL. B. (UNSW)

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Basically at Newcastle you can do College of Law whilst completing your law subjects (unlike other unis where you need to do it AFTER you finish your law degree) so you're a step ahead of the other unis. Apparently the program is quite good in that you get a lot of legal experience at their teaching centre (if you check out the 2010 ALB Awards, the teaching centre was nominated for an award beside G&T and Blake Dawson so it must be ok!) which is a huge advantage when you start practising. My brother goes to Newcastle and he said the campus is at Callaghan (the one near the city).

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    Re: LAW advice, prequisites, ATAR requirements ect.

    Also in response to the difference between the unis, it is essentially what flamearrows said. Although Newcastle has a good program, it can never compete against the prestige of UNSW or USYD. Maybe it's because the entry marks are higher for the Sydney schools or it's a tradition thing...who knows! Regardless of why, to be considered against a Syd student for the top jobs, you would need to excel in Newcastle. Sucks if you're from there I suppose, but that's just the way it is!

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