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Thread: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    ITT people with industry experience say law is shit. Later year students disagree.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by neo o View Post
    ITT people with industry experience say law is shit. Later year students disagree.
    I think the law students know their stuff...

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by WrittenLoveLetters View Post
    What was the difficulty of Law like over your 4 years ?
    From a technical POV, the difficulty becomes progressively harder for the first couple of years but it plateaus once you start on the your electives. Senior units are harder as there are more readings, longer problem questions etc.

    However, I've also heard (and to an extent I agree) that law gets easier as you go because its the same assignment types again and again in the sense that most units will likely have an exam, an essay, class participation etc and you get better at approaching your subjects through practice. Once you get a hang of e.g. how to structure an essay or how to use IRAC properly its simply a fact of finding the right information and plugging it in.

    I personally found first year hardest as everything is new but I still got a year to go.

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by surethingmate View Post
    "I wanted to do law because it would give me a steady income and allow me to help other people."
    > Help other people
    > Works at Allens
    Had to laugh at that one. At least you were honest enough to put the 'steady income' part first, but the 'help other people' part is really just a bit of a lie. I mean it may have been your original intent, you might have had some misty-eyed idea when you were applying to law school, that you'd be some crusader for social justice. But nobody who wants to 'help other people' applies to Allens. As you noted, it's a corporate law firm. It's an 800lb gorilla, fitted out for war, hired gun of the corporations, aka the traditional sworn enemies of 'other people'.
    At Allens (and other major corporate law firms), you can go on secondments to places like RACS (which specifically help refugees) and there are a lot of pro bono opportunities. In contrast, you can't just decide to work 6 months at a CLC or spend time giving legal advice to young people at smaller suburban law firms as part of your work. Your blanket statement of no one wanting to help other people going to firms like Allens is incorrect. A lot of people in my grade who want to work at CLCs in the long term are at corporate law firms because they offer the best training (e.g. subsidised PLT, structured rotations, best lawyers etc.). Just because someone starts their career at Allens doesn't mean they'll be at Allens for the next 20 years. Like I said earlier, I'll also wager the amount of pro bono performed at large corporate law firms per lawyer is higher than what is done at smaller law firms. If you work in corporate then you aren't helping the bigger guys squash the little ones either.

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    Law is NOT! a key to a steady income, no, you will not get a job at a top tier firm, and if you do, you'll fucking hate it...

    Why Law does not provide a steady income:

    Oversupply, low jobs number, unrealistic targets in employment, pessimism within the industry, etc... All things that insure that you are expendable and will never have a secure income...

    Why you will not work at Allens:

    See the above reasoning in this response...

    In short, it is a profession that very, very few people actually succeed in...
    oh yes. here we go again. please, enlighten us - the great prophet of doom and gloom!

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    I think the law students know their stuff...
    For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

    If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

    Doesn't make sense mate.

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawfiend View Post
    For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

    If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

    Doesn't make sense mate.
    Thank you for providing such a useful thread
    Is there any tips you can give for the Allens application process? (Also out of curiosity how many firms did you applied for during the clerkship season and what firms are there and how successful were you with these applications, if you only applied for Allens-what made it stand out from the other big firms?)
    I know one of my friends who is going to graduate this year-he attempted to differentiate the big 4 firms through the wording they used on their websites, but pretty much didn't get through the interviews... I was also wondering what other strategies we can use to differentiate the work of the largest firms then?

    Sorry for the many questions

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawfiend View Post
    For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

    If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

    Doesn't make sense mate.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawfiend View Post
    At Allens (and other major corporate law firms), you can go on secondments to places like RACS (which specifically help refugees) and there are a lot of pro bono opportunities. In contrast, you can't just decide to work 6 months at a CLC or spend time giving legal advice to young people at smaller suburban law firms as part of your work. Your blanket statement of no one wanting to help other people going to firms like Allens is incorrect. A lot of people in my grade who want to work at CLCs in the long term are at corporate law firms because they offer the best training (e.g. subsidised PLT, structured rotations, best lawyers etc.). Just because someone starts their career at Allens doesn't mean they'll be at Allens for the next 20 years. Like I said earlier, I'll also wager the amount of pro bono performed at large corporate law firms per lawyer is higher than what is done at smaller law firms. If you work in corporate then you aren't helping the bigger guys squash the little ones either.
    Based on what I've seen personally, I feel a good amount of people in legal roles within the not-for-profit sector, for example, have come from mid-tier/top-tier commercial law firms. That being said, I guess a decent amount of these people would have hated the commercial law firm life. At the same time, it would seem that working at these large commercial law firms tends to lead to numerous exit opportunities.

    Anyways, I think it's fair to say that:
    - Law isn't some safe financially stable path as a high school student/1st year student might think it is.
    - However, law isn't some dead field where you have no hope unless you're the cream of the crop. Also, a law degree doesn't have to land you a job at a top tier commercial law firm or a legal role generally in the end.

    A law degree provides you with many opportunities. A majority of people do it as a combined degree. Yes, it's an extra 2 years compared to a single degree (so more HECS debt) but there's plenty of people out there who transfer degrees after 1-2 years, do post-grad study, do the JD degree (which is even more expensive) so it's not a big deal.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawfiend View Post
    They do indeed ask for you ATAR.
    I wrote this on the Whirlpool forum and I'll post it here on the BoredofStudies. I have no jealousy or animosity towards people that achieve high ATAR's but the recruitment process factoring into account ATAR is a bit of a joke if you tell me.

    I must admit I had a fairly average ATAR coming into university and I don't blame it on myself or not having the work ethic.

    Like I said not everyone will value a ATAR of high 99+ at that particular price, some would be willing to pay that much. There is a price to everything in life isn't there? I reckon for every family there is a price that they will pay for to get that high ATAR. Why are parents paying up $20,000-$35,000 per year for educational fees?( I understand that it is not ALL academics) I do feel like the ATAR is almost a test of socio-economic status and income power. (As much as I hate to say that). Yes I came from a lower socioeconomic background and I reflect back on it now and I say I had no chance against the top tier schools (the heavily funded schools) and selective schools (who have parents that have planned out their education long before- my parents weren't educated here so they didn't give me direction. Well my mum was the one that encouraged being a teacher from her homeland. Obviously the standards in Australia was higher than in her home country. ) No , I don't make excuses for getting a crappy ATAR first up as well.( I actually worked my butt off in year 12- but didn't have study technique, tutors, resources , network of top tier students to push and drive me, teachers were not willing to go that extra mile etc) Look, I now work as a tutor and can see the advantages v disadvantages of the 'have's and have nots'. The problem is, Year 12 students who are finishing up their final year of study, have only studied the majority of their life, so of course its important for them. I think I had someone that had a chuckle at my ATAR, 10 years on saying 'how $hit it was" But I reflect back on it now and say how could I have controlled it? You grow up with what you get in life and you have to learn to deal with it at times. Sometimes you have to applaud students who get an ATAR of 85, when the schools median average is 65, they are punching above their weight. I guess what I'm trying to say is , there is more to a score than meets the eye. If your school is ranked middle to lower tier, you have less likelihood of getting that high ATAR, as hard as you might try. (obviously there will be some exceptional circumstances for a few). But of course you can always be successful later in life whether you have a high ATAR or low ATAR.

    I mean I look at a course like Medicine now, the process by which admissions is administered , you can gain entry by not requiring that high an ATAR, by just completing a Bachelor of ___________. In fact alot of graduate medicine entry courses don't even look at ATAR. You could be a successful business person without requiring a degree of any sort. Although a degree does give you the mindset to take on things in life with more confidence.

    But for me I value having and living a good life>>>>>studying like a brainiac. Unfortunately, my work requires me to work like a brainiac and it's not something that I will look to do in say 5 years time. (Speaking to a lot of teachers I do feel most of them want a change of profession after a few years into the job) Would love a more cruisier job where I'm not necessarily helping people all the time, I'd rather be helping myself. There is a huge social cost of studying real hard as well.
    Last edited by davidgoes4wce; 15 Feb 2017 at 2:58 PM.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Also no disrespect to Allens- I have never heard of them (but based on what I have read I'm not sure if it's a company that I would want to work for-they do seem a tad elitist) but do they have any links with UWA law by any chance? Not sure but I didn't have too many friends at UWA law at my time, there were kids predominately from the GT network (Golden triangle network- and if you have lived in Perth, these kids are known to be fairly 'cliquey') or do you happen to have connections nationwide, globally or it just a Sydney company?

    You can see I am not a law student nor interested in the particular course but I always have an interest in other areas and discplines.
    Last edited by davidgoes4wce; 15 Feb 2017 at 3:11 PM.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawfiend View Post
    oh yes. here we go again. please, enlighten us - the great prophet of doom and gloom!
    When you graduate and find half of your mates (quite possibly you as well) unemployed and you're crying about how savage the profession is, come back to me... (That is, if you are actually studying law)...

    Quote Originally Posted by lawfiend View Post
    For starters, we know the aim of this thread - ask questions, get answers.

    If law is such a horrible profession, then why do some of the most intelligent people pursue it? People who work at large law firms have typically been very successful in their education as you need a healthy combination of extra-curricular, legal experience and grades to score a clerkship nowadays. Why would someone who like that pursue a career in law if its that horrible? We have university medalists, multiple ivy league scholars (LLM at Cambridge or Oxford), people who used to work in other professions, people who teach part time as university lecturers etc. working at large law firms yet somehow 'law is shit' and everyone of us secretly hate our jobs.

    Doesn't make sense mate.
    The crux of your argument is why do smart people study Law... Which is hardly an argument... Come on, that's like saying "I got the ATAR and thought Law would be a good choice"

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    When you graduate and find half of your mates (quite possibly you as well) unemployed and you're crying about how savage the profession is, come back to me... (That is, if you are actually studying law)...
    I assume half of these mates are the ones who are like 'it's either commercial law firms or nothing' or 'why would I want to work in the public sector'?
    Last edited by RivalryofTroll; 17 Feb 2017 at 6:35 PM.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by RivalryofTroll View Post
    I assume half of these mates are the ones who are like 'it's either commercial law firms or nothing' or 'why would I want to work in the public sector'?
    I somehow think that you don't understand how the job market actually works...

    These people would settle for Admin jobs within a firm... However, there is a reluctance to hire those who have Law degrees for Admin and/or Paralegal roles... For starters, they are grossly overqualified for the role of Paralegal, secondly, employers want security out of their employees as much as employees seek job security... They don't want a person to cut and run as soon as the next job opportunity rolls past...

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    I somehow think that you don't understand how the job market actually works...

    These people would settle for Admin jobs within a firm... However, there is a reluctance to hire those who have Law degrees for Admin and/or Paralegal roles... For starters, they are grossly overqualified for the role of Paralegal, secondly, employers want security out of their employees as much as employees seek job security... They don't want a person to cut and run as soon as the next job opportunity rolls past...
    The point is that I'm not saying that it's all sunshine and rainbows for Law students (especially for those who want any role in a law firm). However, Law students probably have it much better than many other students and since most students take it as a combined degree, there's always their other degree.

    Yes, Law is absolutely terrible compared to before when it comes to employability. Not saying every law student has a bright future. Legal roles are harder to come by. But Law isn't that terrible if you view it amongst all the degrees out there. Combined Law students have various options, whether it be legal or non-legal.

    Like I said before:
    Quote Originally Posted by RivalryofTroll View Post
    Anyways, I think it's fair to say that:
    - Law isn't some safe financially stable path as a high school student/1st year student might think it is.
    - However, law isn't some dead field where you have no hope unless you're the cream of the crop. Also, a law degree doesn't have to land you a job at a top tier commercial law firm or a legal role generally in the end.

    A law degree provides you with many opportunities. A majority of people do it as a combined degree. Yes, it's an extra 2 years compared to a single degree (so more HECS debt) but there's plenty of people out there who transfer degrees after 1-2 years, do post-grad study, do the JD degree (which is even more expensive) so it's not a big deal.
    If Law is terrible, basically 80% of degrees are terrible.
    Last edited by RivalryofTroll; 17 Feb 2017 at 11:13 PM.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by RivalryofTroll View Post
    The point is that I'm not saying that it's all sunshine and rainbows for Law students (especially for those who want any role in a law firm). However, Law students probably have it much better than many other students and since most students take it as a combined degree, there's always their other degree.

    Yes, Law is absolutely terrible compared to before when it comes to employability. Not saying every law student has a bright future. Legal roles are harder to come by. But Law isn't that terrible if you view it amongst all the degrees out there. Combined Law students have various options, whether it be legal or non-legal.

    Like I said before:


    If Law is terrible, basically 80% of degrees are terrible.
    I've worked as a solicitor. I've been in legal recruitment. I've been in the APS. Of the people I know from law school, the majority are either back studying or doing something else, even people who managed to get a start in the profession. Of the people who are still in the profession, heaps are jammed up on salaries that people with other degrees would expect to exceed in just a couple of years. I only know 3 people I went to law school with who have successful careers in law.

    For the privilege of entering such a competitive profession, you sacrifice two years of potentially earning an income + pay increased HECs fees across the board.

    For people who think the sacrifice is worth it for the quality of work - you're going to be disappointed - a lot of people end up doing fairly boring compliance work in quasi legal areas in the public service, or working at suburban and mid-tier law firms effectively just filling out forms and doing routine court work. The hours are awful, and quite often, so are the people you're working with.

    I actually get angry when I see later year law students with no industry experience and no idea what they're talking about shilling for law. If you're a school leaver, consider a generalist degree that will give you more career options like a commerce/arts degree, and if you're still keen, you can do a JD down the road. An LLB opens up similar but fewer opportunities than a straight BA.
    Last edited by neo o; 18 Feb 2017 at 1:01 PM.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    I'm in the suburban firm situation (but it's far from mid tier hahaha)... It's close to home at least, which is a plus...

    Can tell you now... You're better off getting a job at Woolworths and climbing the corporate ladder there until you are area manager...

    I really don't want to disappoint the people currently studying Law, who knows, you might find success in law... Both, myself and neo o are only providing an accurate reflection of what the legal industry is actually like...

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    I'm in the suburban firm situation (but it's far from mid tier hahaha)... It's close to home at least, which is a plus...

    Can tell you now... You're better off getting a job at Woolworths and climbing the corporate ladder there until you are area manager...

    I really don't want to disappoint the people currently studying Law, who knows, you might find success in law... Both, myself and neo o are only providing an accurate reflection of what the legal industry is actually like...
    I'm an accountant now and I'm actually shocked, in spite of its similarities to law, how much better everything about the profession is.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Hi,

    I'm a student in Year 11 and am currently looking at potential careers. Law really stood out to me because it involves helping people, analytical skills etc. The subjects I am considering studying in Year 12 are Advanced English, General Maths, Psychology and Biology. When looking at the ATAR for the Law degree I am looking at (95) I am quite worried that the subjects I am considering are going to scale really low. Do you think that If I achieve really high marks in these subjects that I have a high chance of getting into law ?
    Last edited by Demi678; 16 Mar 2017 at 4:36 PM.

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by neo o View Post
    An LLB opens up similar but fewer opportunities than a straight BA.
    I disagree with this statement, but agree with everything else you've said. Source: 2 years private practice, 6 years government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demi678 View Post
    Hi,

    I'm a student in Year 11 and am currently looking at potential careers. Law really stood out to me because it involves helping people, analytical skills etc. The subjects I am considering studying in Year 12 are Advanced English, General Maths, Psychology and Biology. When looking at the ATAR for the Law degree I am looking at (95) I am quite worried that the subjects I am considering are going to scale really low. Do you think that If I achieve really high marks in these subjects that I have a high chance of getting into law ?
    Law does not involve helping people - there are two sides to every case, so you will almost always be fucking someone else over. Do not worry about how your subjects will scale, just pick subjects which you will enjoy and will do OK at. The subjects you have listed are fine.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    There seems to be an overwhelming amount of "horror stories" on whirlpool (on law and life in general), where, and wait for the truly impossible situation, you'll have people who scored average marks in average (not go8) universities, wondering why in 2017 they can't find a job, in a field that is more competitive than ever (as is every white collar industry).

    I'm sorry but if you only managed to get a pass or credit average in your combined law degree and you had minimal responsibilities during university (and even if), then you deserve the predicament of being unable to find a job. The difficulty of law is greatly exaggerated. You'll hear people tell you that you need to give up your life, your sport, your hobbies and everything that you thought was fun, because this discipline is all consuming. I was told from day 1 that it's incredibly cut throat. Then when I started they said, "just wait for the REAL law subjects" (presumably the ones of greater density). I got there and it was laughable. Sure it was harder, but it was nothing that isn't doable. Some areas of law are complex and you need to apply the law carefully, considering the exceptions, but it's still words. Put me in an engineering or complex maths class, and now you're talking. I'd seriously struggle. It's not hard to get at least a distinction if you're consistent. Most of the course structure at UTS at least is quite balanced, between class participation, assessments that you sometimes have over a month to complete, and a final exam. And you're not clueless for the exams either. There are revision lectures, your tutor goes through practice exams with you and so on and so forth. I hear it's strikingly similar in other institutions. I'd say there are some hell-ish subjects (in structure more than content) but it's nothing earth shattering.

    Wannaspoon, correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a few years ago you saying something to the effect of "I stay up for two weeks during my law exams; no sleep but that's how I pass". I remember reading that as I was entering law and preparing myself for what was ahead of me. I don't think it's a coincidence that someone who needs to cram the entire course work in the last two weeks before the exam, to the complete sacrifice of sleep, is complaining about the lack of opportunities in law. It should be worded "the lack of opportunities FOR ME".

    There are students who will be the whole package; good grades, great personality, a critical thinker, solid EC's and experience. There are also people who get constant distinctions and high distinctions and can't even talk to you pleasantly for a minute without facilitating unbelievable inner cringe because they're just so awkward. There are people with high marks and who have extreme social anxiety; which is undeniably a negative trait in law. You have people who get credit to distinction averages who are leagues ahead of the HD bookworm students, because they're pragmatic and they have experience. They know how to get things going, know how to talk to people and in general they have decent connections.

    Trying to link someone's failure to one aspect when everything matters is looking at a tenth of a painting in an attempt to understand the entire painting. It's nonsensical in every sense of the word.

    The worst thing you can do to yourself is sit there all day reading horror stories on whirlpool, where every story teller there attempts to magnify their quality and underplay where they went wrong. Of course you're struggling to get a job if you didn't start job searching until six months after graduation and you have absolutely no experience. Of course you're struggling if you spent most of your time screwing around at uni parties and events at the expense of your grades. It's time to take some responsibility because in disciplines just as competitive as law, you don't have as many vocal complainers. In general, it seems, law students are willing to argue about anything for the sake of arguing.

    By the way, disregard what I have to say. I'm just a clueless university student who knows nothing, I've never talked to anyone practicing law, I've never had a job or any of that jazz (not srs)
    Last edited by Spiritual Being; 24 Mar 2017 at 8:14 PM.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by neo o View Post
    I actually get angry when I see later year law students with no industry experience and no idea what they're talking about shilling for law. If you're a school leaver, consider a generalist degree that will give you more career options like a commerce/arts degree, and if you're still keen, you can do a JD down the road. An LLB opens up similar but fewer opportunities than a straight BA.
    Which is still 4 years (Comm/LLB being 5 years, an extra year). Not sure why so many people who end up in consulting/IB would do Commerce/Engineering (5.5 years) and Commerce/Law (5 years) when a Commerce/Arts degree opens up way more opportunities and is only 4 years.

    I guess it's all lies when they say Big 4 tax recruit heaps of Accounting/Law or Finance/Law students.

    What do I know. I should just drop my LLB and do Commerce/Arts now.
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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by RivalryofTroll View Post
    Which is still 4 years (Comm/LLB being 5 years, an extra year). Not sure why so many people who end up in consulting/IB would do Commerce/Engineering (5.5 years) and Commerce/Law (5 years) when a Commerce/Arts degree opens up way more opportunities and is only 4 years.

    I guess it's all lies when they say Big 4 tax recruit heaps of Accounting/Law or Finance/Law students.

    What do I know. I should just drop my LLB and do Commerce/Arts now.
    I'm pretty sure he meant commerce OR arts.

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritual Being View Post
    There seems to be an overwhelming amount of "horror stories" on whirlpool (on law and life in general), where, and wait for the truly impossible situation, you'll have people who scored average marks in average (not go8) universities, wondering why in 2017 they can't find a job, in a field that is more competitive than ever (as is every white collar industry).

    I'm sorry but if you only managed to get a pass or credit average in your combined law degree and you had minimal responsibilities during university (and even if), then you deserve the predicament of being unable to find a job. The difficulty of law is greatly exaggerated. You'll hear people tell you that you need to give up your life, your sport, your hobbies and everything that you thought was fun, because this discipline is all consuming. I was told from day 1 that it's incredibly cut throat. Then when I started they said, "just wait for the REAL law subjects" (presumably the ones of greater density). I got there and it was laughable. Sure it was harder, but it was nothing that isn't doable. Some areas of law are complex and you need to apply the law carefully, considering the exceptions, but it's still words. Put me in an engineering or complex maths class, and now you're talking. I'd seriously struggle. It's not hard to get at least a distinction if you're consistent. Most of the course structure at UTS at least is quite balanced, between class participation, assessments that you sometimes have over a month to complete, and a final exam. And you're not clueless for the exams either. There are revision lectures, your tutor goes through practice exams with you and so on and so forth. I hear it's strikingly similar in other institutions. I'd say there are some hell-ish subjects (in structure more than content) but it's nothing earth shattering.

    Wannaspoon, correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a few years ago you saying something to the effect of "I stay up for two weeks during my law exams; no sleep but that's how I pass". I remember reading that as I was entering law and preparing myself for what was ahead of me. I don't think it's a coincidence that someone who needs to cram the entire course work in the last two weeks before the exam, to the complete sacrifice of sleep, is complaining about the lack of opportunities in law. It should be worded "the lack of opportunities FOR ME".

    There are students who will be the whole package; good grades, great personality, a critical thinker, solid EC's and experience. There are also people who get constant distinctions and high distinctions and can't even talk to you pleasantly for a minute without facilitating unbelievable inner cringe because they're just so awkward. There are people with high marks and who have extreme social anxiety; which is undeniably a negative trait in law. You have people who get credit to distinction averages who are leagues ahead of the HD bookworm students, because they're pragmatic and they have experience. They know how to get things going, know how to talk to people and in general they have decent connections.

    Trying to link someone's failure to one aspect when everything matters is looking at a tenth of a painting in an attempt to understand the entire painting. It's nonsensical in every sense of the word.

    The worst thing you can do to yourself is sit there all day reading horror stories on whirlpool, where every story teller there attempts to magnify their quality and underplay where they went wrong. Of course you're struggling to get a job if you didn't start job searching until six months after graduation and you have absolutely no experience. Of course you're struggling if you spent most of your time screwing around at uni parties and events at the expense of your grades. It's time to take some responsibility because in disciplines just as competitive as law, you don't have as many vocal complainers. In general, it seems, law students are willing to argue about anything for the sake of arguing.

    By the way, disregard what I have to say. I'm just a clueless university student who knows nothing, I've never talked to anyone practicing law, I've never had a job or any of that jazz (not srs)
    Come back to this thread after you finish your PLT in mid 2019... Think you got a bit confused, I was not talking about the job market at all (in fact, I would say job openings for juniors have really improved over the past 6-8 months)... I was actually talking about working at a firm...

    You'll find that when you are on an industry award for a Paralegal (because there's no industry award for a Solicitor) while your boss is swimming in dough; drowning in a heap of HECS debt that you can't even consider paying off for at least 3 years (that's not much of a problem, but there are many other professions you can get into where you don't have this burden and probably earn more); covering your arse left, right and centre because the people you even work for try to throw you under a bus; etc; it really isn't what you bargained for...

    The works mundane, driven by process, very administrative, mostly form filling, copping flak over the phone (by opposing sides and by clients), etc (you'll find that extracurricular activities like your certificate of participation in a Moot don't really help you in any way, shape or form)... I note that the profession has quite a few pompous arseholes also (just a side note, they normally get hammered down)...
    Last edited by wannaspoon; 21 Apr 2017 at 12:59 AM.

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    Re: Fourth year law student - ask me anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaspoon View Post
    Come back to this thread after you finish your PLT in mid 2019... Think you got a bit confused, I was not talking about the job market at all (in fact, I would say job openings for juniors have really improved over the past 6-8 months)
    There was a spike here in Canberra because half of the Australian Government Solicitor quit. They were merged in to the Attorney General's Department, so are now on the AGD enterprise agreement. 20% bonus for paralegals, 20% pay cut for solicitors, no more bonuses and no change in hours or expectations for solicitors. It'd fucking hurt knowing that you're working 12 hour days when your paralegal is working 9-5 on 5-10K less and the useless tits next door at AGD are working a cozy 7.5 hours for the same salary. I mean, the nice thing I suppose is that it means at least two or three graduating classes at ANU get a shot in what is usually a fairly terrible local market for higher tier professional practice.
    Ex-troll, ex-big time BoSer, ex-solicitor, current angryish, olderish guy shouting rude things at young kids.

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