summer clerkships

[= Jennifer =]

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i was just wandering after your first year of study are you able to do a summer clerkship or is it usually later

[Frigid]

Originally Posted by = Jennifer =

i was just wandering after your first year of study are you able to do a summer clerkship or is it usually later

it's really a thing for the summer of fourth/fifth year... but you can always try to apply for volunteer/work experience/admin and later paralegal positions.

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Frigid

it's really a thing for the summer of fourth/fifth year... but you can always try to apply for volunteer/work experience/admin and later paralegal positions.

I agree. Firms that advertise for seasonal clerkships generally seek those who are at least in their penultimate year of study. I think this is mainly due to two reasons: (a) you have completed the basic core subjects such as property and contract and (b) students are close to graduation (ripe for recruitment!).

That said, and as Frigid mentioned, it would be worthwhile for you to pursue practical work experience where ever you can find it and as soon as possible. Again, I see two major benefits: (a) it improves your profile earlier on so that you can be more successful when you're applying for seasonal clerkships and (b) it will give you an idea of the different areas of law and what you might find yourself interested/disinterested in.

Many students (including myself!) had first hand experience of the law from a seasonal clerkship whereas I would have liked more practical experience earlier on. Even if you're a first or second year, and all you're capable of doing is administrative work, you get to know people in the industry (particularly to see if they are who you would aspire to become) and know what it's like to work in the law (i.e. in a law firm).

A final note though that once you're in second or third year, have a go at applying for seasonal clerkships even if you're not in your penultimate year. Some firms will nonetheless interview (and perhaps recruit) you and it's a great opportunity to have interview experience.

I hope that helps! Best of luck.

David

[santaslayer]

Originally Posted by 1000words

I agree. Firms that advertise for seasonal clerkships generally seek those who are at least in their penultimate year of study. I think this is mainly due to two reasons: (a) you have completed the basic core subjects such as property and contract and (b) students are close to graduation (ripe for recruitment!).

That said, and as Frigid mentioned, it would be worthwhile for you to pursue practical work experience where ever you can find it and as soon as possible. Again, I see two major benefits: (a) it improves your profile earlier on so that you can be more successful when you're applying for seasonal clerkships and (b) it will give you an idea of the different areas of law and what you might find yourself interested/disinterested in.

Many students (including myself!) had first hand experience of the law from a seasonal clerkship whereas I would have liked more practical experience earlier on. Even if you're a first or second year, and all you're capable of doing is administrative work, you get to know people in the industry (particularly to see if they are who you would aspire to become) and know what it's like to work in the law (i.e. in a law firm).

A final note though that once you're in second or third year, have a go at applying for seasonal clerkships even if you're not in your penultimate year. Some firms will nonetheless interview (and perhaps recruit) you and it's a great opportunity to have interview experience.

I hope that helps! Best of luck.

David

Yeah, the interview experience is probably what you are looking for. Really dosen't matter if your application gets rejected or not. Might do that 3rd year?

[Frigid]

david,

i've got a few questions about clerkships:

1) a lot of firms want their interview candidates to have done some research about the firm and through that, express their interest in the firm in their cover letter. however, the problem i see with this is, aren't most top tier firms the same? i notice that in terms of resources, capability, clientele, overseas affliation and specialisation, most top firms (say top 5 firms) are very similar. the only top firm that i see that is sort of different i would say would be gadens. any idea on how i could actually 'distinguish' between the top firms?

2) what is a good way to get more interview experience (aside from actually attending the interviews themselves)? i know that there are mock interviews during Sydney Law Careers Fair, but do you know of any other interview workshops?

3) which firm did you choose go to for your clerkship? did you get other offers? if so, why did you pick the firm that you chose?

cheers mate.

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Frigid

david,

i've got a few questions about clerkships:

1) a lot of firms want their interview candidates to have done some research about the firm and through that, express their interest in the firm in their cover letter. however, the problem i see with this is, aren't most top tier firms the same? i notice that in terms of resources, capability, clientele, overseas affliation and specialisation, most top firms (say top 5 firms) are very similar. the only top firm that i see that is sort of different i would say would be gadens. any idea on how i could actually 'distinguish' between the top firms?

2) what is a good way to get more interview experience (aside from actually attending the interviews themselves)? i know that there are mock interviews during Sydney Law Careers Fair, but do you know of any other interview workshops?

3) which firm did you choose go to for your clerkship? did you get other offers? if so, why did you pick the firm that you chose?

cheers mate.

Hi Frigid,

In relation to clerkships:

1) It does take a lot of time to research a particular firm and this is made more difficult when you come across a law firm with a fairly uninformative website. Whilst I can understand from a university student's perspective that it is difficult to distinguish between law firms, what you really need to determine is why you're attracted to that particular firm. What is it that made you think that Gadens was different to other law firms? Use this as a starting point and you will start differentiating the various firms. For instance:

a) what areas of practice do they have, and which are you interested and why?
b) how large is the firm?
c) how many graduates they take on every year?

Websites should also not be the end in terms of researching a firm. It would be worthwhile to find more information about a particular firm through word of mouth, if possible, or contacting the firm directly. Try to go beyond the glossy brochures, it's a great starting point but there's more to it than PR.

Also, be aware of the different types of law firms. A 'top' law firm has many meanings and can cover a range of different law firms. If you call a mid-tier law firm a 'top-tier' law firm, you might think it's flattering but it will most likely show that you're not aware of the legal industry. Mid-tier law firms aren't embarrassed to be classed as 'mid-tier', there are many, many advantages.

Take the time to research because 'why did you apply to this law firm' is a guaranteed question at each interview.

2) Other ways of getting interview experience include hiring a consultant. It need not be too expensive but they will certainly be able to give you pointers based on their experience. It's very valuable information. Otherwise, feel free to obtain interview experience from your friends. This will help you get used to the interview format.

3) I chose a particular firm because of the seasonal clerkship experience I had there. You'll find that such experiences are very influential in making your decision. Through seasonal clerkships, you really get to know what people are like and what work they undertake. A seasonal clerkship is like one big interview where the firm gets to see you in action and you get to have a peek into the workings of that law firm. Don't be mistaken, there are major differences amongst all firms.

I hope that helps!

David

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Asquithian

Very helpful 1000words

Does everyone apply through CV mail?

You're more than welcome Asquithian!

In relation to your question, I believe everyone apply through CVmail to law firms that use CVmail for their submission process - I even think that that these firms give applicants no other choice (unless there are exceptional circumstances). However, there are quite a few law firms now who have opted out of CVmail and done it on their own. This means that applicants have to enter in their marks, details etc many more times. The consequence of this is that applicants should leave ample time to submit applications!

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Asquithian

So those firms that have opted out of CV mail...Do you have to apply to them directly?

That's right, they have their own online submission form like CV mail. There used to be a lot of firms listed with cvmail but they've gone on their own. With other firms that do not use CV mail or their own online submission form, you will most likely have to email or post your cover letter, curriculum vitae and academic transcript.

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Asquithian

So. How relevant are marks?

I think they're very relevant at the 'culling stage' because competition, as always, is extremely high for graduate recruitment - there are so many applications and marks are a good objective filter.

David Brent (The Office): Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them.

If an applicant has ordinary marks, they might find it very difficult to obtain interviews unless they have outstanding extracurricular activities that tempt them to calling the person up for an interview.

Once at the interview stage, I think marks play much less of a factor. It's very subjective from then on.

I hope that makes some sense.

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Asquithian

To narrow it down. Is your other degree any relevant? Essentially the subjects you choose. Do they make any difference?

If they see that you did well in international law or some other legally related area in your arts degree is that a plus? OR do they don't care and go straight to the law subjects?

I was told by my first year foundations teacher, who had graduated the year before as uni medalist, that employers simply don't care about the subjects you did. As long as you got good marks for them. True?

...thats what I was getting at. But as everyone knows high marks are hard to ingore.

It's a tough call, I think Asquithian. Your application can fall in the hands of anybody's and it's very subjective, and dependent on the time they spend on each application. One might be your first year foundations teacher, or a partner who wants a specific type of person on their team.

Generally, I feel that good marks reflects on a person's character and their will to commit to study, they're intelligent enough when put to an objective test. As a recruiter for graduates, however, I imagine that they acknowledge that practical experience is limited even though this is the most essential criteria. This is why I push the extra-curricular activities. When people look through curriculum vitaes, the marks become a blur. What stands out is anything interesting they have done.

I hope that doesn't sound too confusing!

[1000words]

Originally Posted by qwsa

Sorry, but what's CV mail?

http://www.cvmail.com.au/index.cfm - it's an online submission form that some law firms use.

[1000words]

Originally Posted by Asquithian

EC activities can be anything. Not just law related?

Anything and everything. However, it is up to you to make them convince your potential employer that your EC is relevant to being a good lawyer.

[MaryJane]

David, when it comes to second/third year law students (like myself) applying for clerkships, do we fill out the same form as fourth/fifth year students? Or is it best for us to prepare our own cover sheet and CV? And would now be the best time to apply, along with the older students?

Ta!