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20 Jan 2006, 5:01 PM
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10 Aug 2008, 5:16 PM   |  The Law Guide / FAQ You can hide this advertisement by registering.  Sections: 1. Should I study law? ... Things to consider - course difficulty, your interests, salary, job opportunities & more. 2. University ... Information about law schools - where to study, entrance requirements, law classes, students, etc. 3. Transfers ... All about how to transfer into law. 4. Employment & Post-uni ... Career options, finding a job, different firms, clerkships, what employers want, etc. 5. The Legal Profession ... What lawyers do, salary, workload, barristers/solicitors, judges, wigs/robes, etc. Quote:
Last edited by MoonlightSonata; 30 May 2007 at 5:32 PM. | |
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20 Jan 2006, 5:50 PM
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10 Aug 2008, 5:16 PM | 1. Should I study law? Contents: • Will I find law interesting? • How hard is it, intellectually? • How much reading is involved? • What is the workload like? • Will it increase my job prospects? • What about salary? • What skills do I need? • Does HSC legal studies help? • Do I have to do oral presentations and mooting? • What is life like for a law student? [Back to Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Will I find law interesting? I can't know for certain whether you will find law interesting. However, the following list of questions may give you an indication. If you answer 'yes' to most of the following, then you are probably more likely to find law interesting: 1. Are you good at English? Law is all about language; the way we understand, think and express ourselves are particularly important in legal matters and English ability helps a great deal. 2. Do you enjoy argument or debate? Argumentative people often enjoy law. Strength in reasoning and critical thinking will help because you have to apply the law to facts. Also, often those who are good at debating find an interest in mooting. 3. Do you like problem solving? In comprehending cases and legal materials, it is useful to be able to break down an issue and fit it into categories. The ability to think clearly and critically helps in being able to analyse incredibly complex fact scenarios and isolate important parts, in order to slot them into relevant legal boxes. 4. Do you want to have a meaningful role to play in society? Law is the backbone of society - it governs how we interact and how power is distributed. Those who enjoy dealing with real issues that effect society and the individual within it may find the practical, real-life application of law to be a fascinating and rewarding explanation of how society really works. 5. Do you read much? As you have probably guessed, law does involve a fair bit of reading. However, the quantity is not so important as the quality. Often, judges use highly sophisticated language in expressing complicated legal reasoning. Cases can also involve intricate fact situations. You don't have to be an English expert. You can get by if you work hard. But if you are particularly weak at English, beware: law will be difficult for you. 6. Are you interested in morals and justice? There is a difference between law and justice, but in the end the law is mostly an attempt to maintain social harmony in the most just way possible. If you're interested in how society gives effect to this objective in its rules and regulations, or if you're interested in human rights and how to protect them, law may prove interesting to you. 7. Do you enjoy being pushed intellectually? Law can be challenging, there is no question of that. That is a good thing if you can handle it and if you enjoy learning and being pushed. 8. Are you interested in news/politics, and the world/society around you? It is not a rule, but often these types of people tend to be quite interested in law, especially constitutional, criminal and human rights law. Of course, these are not necessary conditions for one to be interested in law (ie. you don't have to have them), but you will be more likely to be interested in law if you do answer yes to them. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How hard is it, intellectually? Whilst you might need a UAI of 99+ to be admitted to a law degree, this doesn't mean that you need a UAI of 99+ to be capable of doing a law degree. In fact, the Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Sydney has suggested that, academically speaking, a UAI of only 80 would be sufficient. Notwithstanding UAI however, which is not necessarily indicative of a person's intellect, law is a challenging course. First year subjects are generally of average difficulty, but some later year subjects such as contracts and property law are considerably complicated areas that require a certain level of mental aptitude. The vast majority of students who are taking law are students who gained UAIs of 99+, and thus competition is quite strong. High marks are therefore particularly difficult to achieve in comparison with other courses. But a reasonably capable student who completes all of their readings and puts a reasonable amount of effort into their assessment tasks, will generally receive a Distinction or high Credit. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How much reading is involved? The workload isn't that bad, though there is a large step up in the readings when you hit second year. The quantity and depth of the reading varies. UNSW law readings: Foundations of Law Readings: ~15 pages per class (course reader; fair bit of historical readings). Reading depth: Light Assessments: Mid-Semester Exam (30%), Class Participation [CP] (10%), Casenote (60%). Torts Readings: 20-25 pages per class (textbook and course reader; a few case extracts and some theory each class). Reading depth: Average Assessments: CP (10%), Mid-Semester Assignment (50%), Final Exam (40%). Public Law Readings: 25-35 pages per class (Textbook). Reading depth: Mostly Average/Some Heavy Assessments: CP (10%), Final Exam (90%). Contracts 1 & 2 Readings: 25-35 pages per class (textbook, casebook and supplementary materials booklet). Reading depth: Mostly Heavy/Some Average Contracts 1 Assessments: CP (20%), Final Exam (80%). Contracts 2 Assessments: CP (10%), Assignment (40%), Final Exam (50%). Criminal Law 1 Readings: 35-40 pages per class (textbook; occasionally a recent case or news article). Reading depth: Mostly Average/Some Light Assessment: CP (10%), Court Research Paper (30%), Final Exam (60%) Criminal Law 2 Readings: 30-40 pages per class (textbook). Reading depth: Average Assessment: CP (10%), Research Essay (30%), Final Exam (60%) Property Law 1 & 2 Readings: 20-30 pages per class (2 textbooks; one general one and one on equity). Reading depth: Heavy Assessments: CP (20%), Optional Research Assignment (40%), Exam (80%, or 40% if you did the optional assignment). Administrative Law Readings: 20-30 pages per class (textbook and course reader). Reading depth: Mostly Average/Some heavy Assessments: Group presentation/class participation (20%), Choice of mid-semester test or essay (30% - but maximisable), Exam (80% or 50%, depending on whether you did better in the exam or the mid-semester/essay). Also must complete a Tribunal report (Pass/Fail). Law, Lawyers & Society Readings: 20-30 pages per class (textbook and course reader). Reading depth: Light Assessments: Class participation (10%), Kingsford Legal Centre Interviewing session and Report (10%), Group presentation and handout (15%), take-home exam (65%). Legal Theory Readings: 20-25 pages per class (course reader). Reading depth: Heavy Assessments: Three 1800 word essays (33.3% each). Litigation 1 Readings: 30-40 pages per class (textbook and course reader). Reading depth: Average Assessments: Class participation (10%), Mid-semester exam - civil (45%), Final exam - criminal (45%). Litigation 2 Readings: 30-40 pages per class (textbook). Reading depth: Average Assessments: Mid-semester exam (40%), Final exam (60%), Optional class participation (10%). Federal Constitutional Law Readings: 15-25 pages per class (textbook). Reading depth: Mostly Average/Some Heavy Assessments: Mid-semester assignment (40%), Final assignment (60%). Business Associations Readings: 30-40 pages per class (textbook and course reader). Reading depth: Average Assessments: Class participation (20%), Essay (30%), Final exam (50%). [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What is the workload like? Yet to be added. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Will it increase my job prospects? Generally, yes. Knowledge of the law is useful for a wide variety of professions. If you intend to pursue a commercial career in business, a law degree will certainly increase your attractiveness to employers. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What about salary? Top Tier Firms The 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey lists the salaries for Sydney top tier firms: Graduate - $63,000 – $70,000. Average: $65,000 1st Year - $72,000 – $80,000. Average: $75,000 2nd Year- $80,000 – $95,000. Average: $87,000 3rd Year - $90,000 – $115,000. Average: $103,000 4th Year - $95,000 – $135,000. Average: $115,000 5th Year - $100,000 – $145,000. Average: $125,000 Senior Associate 1 - $130,000 – $145,000. Average: $135,000 Senior Associate 2 - $140,000 – $165,000. Average: $155,000 Senior Associate 3 - $150,000 – $190,000. Average: $170,000 Senior Associate 4 - $160,000 – $220,000. Average: $180,000 Senior Associate 5-Special Counsel - $180,000 – $295,000. Average: $220,000 Other employment areas, such as Big 4 accounting, investment banking and consulting, would provide similar, if not better salaries. Mid Tier Firms 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for Sydney mid tier firms: Graduate - $50,000 – $66,000. Average: $60,000 1st Year - $59,000 – $78,000. Average: $70,000 2nd Year- $67,000 – $85,000. Average: $78,000 3rd Year - $68,000 – $105,000. Average: $90,000 4th Year - $78,000 – $130,000. Average: $102,000 5th Year - $98,000 – $125,000. Average: $110,000 Senior Associate 1 - $105,000 – $145,000. Average: $125,000 Senior Associate 2 - $114,000 – $150,000. Average: $135,000 Senior Associate 3 - $123,000 – $180,000. Average: $145,000 Senior Associate 4 - $135,000 – $180,000. Average: $150,000 Senior Associate 5-Special Counsel - $145,000 – $255,000. Average: $190,000 Small Firms 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for Sydney small firms: Graduate - $45,000 – $65,000. Average: $50,000 1st Year - $50,000 – $70,000. Average: $67,000 2nd Year- $56,000 – $80,000. Average: $67,000 3rd Year - $65,000 – $100,000. Average: $76,000 4th Year - $75,000 – $110,000. Average: $88,000 5th Year - $80,000 – $120,000. Average: $100,000 Senior Associate 1 - $98,000 – $120,000. Average: $108,000 Senior Associate 2+ - $105,000 – $220,000. Average: $155,000 Partners 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for partner renumeration in Sydney (average): Top Tier Firms - $1,084,000 Mid Tier Firms - $676,500 Small Firms - $442,800 In-house 2007 Mahlab Corporate Survey salaries for Sydney: 1st Year - $60,000 – $85,000. Average: $72,000 2nd Year - $70,000 – $90,000. Average: $85,000 3rd Year - $85,000 – $125,000. Average: $100,000 4th Year - $105,000 – $150,000. Average: $130,000 5th Year - $120,000 – $170,000. Average: $150,000 6th + Years - $130,000 – $220,000. Average: $180,000 DGC - $145,000– $285,000. Average: $235,000 General Counsel - $165,00 – $600,000+. Average: $290,000 Salaries Overseas Since law is a generalist degree, the opportunity to work overseas in areas of commercial law has grown increasingly popular. Australian law graduates have found themselves competitive hires for law firms in London, Dubai and Hong Kong. "Although costs of living may be higher, graduates can expect average salaries to be far higher in several overseas destinations. In top law firms in New York they can expect US$125,000 ($170,600). In London it’s around £50,000 ($118,000) for London firms and £80,000 for US-based firms in the UK. In Hong Kong they can expect HK$804,000 ($141,700) from London firms and HK$972,000 ($171,300) from US-based firms. This compares to about $52,000 as a base salary in Australian firms": Lawyer's Weekly. 2006 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for overseas practice: Hong Kong Salaries: Newly Qualified - HK$56,000 – HK$68,000 PQE 1 - HK$60,000 – HK$75,000 PQE 2 - HK$65,000 – HK$82,000 PQE 3 - HK$70,000 – HK$88,000 PQE 4 - HK$76,000 – HK$97,000 PQE 5 - HK$80,000 – HK$105,000 London Salaries: Newly Qualified - £46,000 – £55,000 PQE 1 - £50,000 – £61,000 PQE 2 - £55,000 – £70,000 PQE 3 - £58,000 – £77,000 PQE 4 - £65,000 – £82,000 PQE 5 - £72,000 – £89,000 New York Salaries: Newly Qualified - US$125,000 – US$144,000 PQE 1 - US$130,000 – US$150,000 PQE 2 - US$135,000 – US$170,000 PQE 3 - US$140,000 – US$185,000 PQE 4 - US$160,000 – US$195,000 PQE 5 - US$175,000 – US$210,000 Singapore Salaries: Newly Qualified - S$95,000 – S$130,000 PQE 1 - S$120,000 – S$150,000 PQE 2 - S$130,000 – S$170,000 PQE 3 - S$150,000 – S$200,000 PQE 4 - S$155,000 – S$235,000 PQE 5 - S$170,000 – S$250,000 Barristers Barristers, being a sole traders, often have a greater income range. A newly-admitted barrister, with little experience and briefs, may scarcely break-even for the first few years. On the other hand, experienced senior counsel may charge appearance fees of upwards of seven thousand dollars per day. Non-corporate and public-sector Public sector and non-corporate salaries tend to be lower than their corporate counterparts. For example, a graduate Associate to a Federal judge is paid approximately $48K. Private suburban firms might pay a graduate $35 - 40K. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What skills do I need? To be successful in your legal studies, hard work is of course the most desirable trait. Good English language ability is also a highly desirable skill, without which study may be difficult. Other skills are also useful, such as strength in problem-solving and critical thinking. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Do I have to do oral presentations and mooting? Mooting You do not have to participate in mooting -- it is an extra-curricular activity. However you should consider giving mooting a go as it develops your oral argument skills, provides practice in preparing and researching cases, gives you a chance to actually apply your learning, is attractive to employers, and many students find it to be great fun. Oral Presentations Occasionally you may have to do an oral presentation as part of the assessment marks for a subject. (Some teachers prefer to use an oral presentation assessment to determine class participation marks instead of an ongoing assessment of how people contribute in each class, though this is less common.) However, oral presentations are not exclusive to law. You will encounter them in all sorts of subjects, including accounting and economics. Oral presentations are nothing to be afraid of, and in the real world you will have to get used to dealing with people. It is best to learn these skills now rather than be afraid to give that business talk when it really matters! Class Participation At most universities, you will be expected to contribute to class discussion for most law subjects, though class participation usually constitutes a low percentage of total marks (10-20%). In some cases it is maximisable. Class participation has been said by some to be marked somewhat capriciously at times. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What is life like for a law student? Yet to be added. [Back to: Should I study law? | Main Contents] Last edited by MoonlightSonata; 2 Aug 2007 at 2:03 PM. |
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20 Jan 2006, 6:20 PM
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| Retired HSC: N/A Gender: Female
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10 Aug 2008, 5:16 PM | 2. University Contents: • Which uni should I attend? • What are the differences between unis? • Do employers care where you study? • What are the entry requirements? • What if I don't get straight into law? • What degree should I combine law with? • What subjects will I study? • What are law classes like? • Does HSC legal studies help? • What are law students like? Are they competitive, hot, arrogant? • Who are the law students on these forums? [Back to: Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Which uni should I attend? Preliminary note This is a very controversial question, and the answer will depend on what you seek from your law degree. I will attempt to provide a concise, unbiased and accurate answer. I am not concerned here with giving you a spiel about all universities being equal, or making people feel good about their individual university. Prospective students do not need niceties, they need accurate information. Law is a useful degree for many careers and one may not wish to become a lawyer. This section will focus on what university to choose with regard to pursuing a career in law. So far, it only contains information that I consider accurate. [Lack of information on particular universities does not indicate lack of approval or any lesser quality, recognition or respect. The only reason I have not added information about certain universities is because I do not yet have the knowledge to comment on them.] Does it make a difference? It does make a difference where you get your law degree, all else being equal. To deny this would be wishful thinking. Some institutions have a better reputation and will therefore provide you with a better chance on the academic level of being appealing to employers. There is no question about this. However, it is a matter of "to what extent". Experience, good grades, personal skills, character and participation in other activities are also extremely important factors which combined outweigh the importance of the degree. So degree is not everything by all means, but it does make a difference. Think of your academic degree as a weapon in your arsenal. Some might be finer balanced or sharper than others, giving an edge in the fight. But it doesn't determine the battle by itself. The Options The most prestigious Australian university for law is the University of Sydney. It is a very old university that still carries a strong reputation and many ties in the legal community. For this reason it is perhaps advisable to seek placement in this university first. The University of New South Wales is also up at the top of Australian law schools, in terms of reputation. USyd and UNSW are widely regarded as equal first, with USyd having a slight edge in prestige due to its long history. Recently the Federal Government's assessment of excellence found that UNSW leads all Australian universities for the quality of learning and teaching in law. This section is still under construction, but here is a relevant article: Quote:
[Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What are the differences between unis? This section is under construction, but you may find the article above, "Law schools - hankering for a ranking", relevant or interesting. [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Do employers care where you study? Yet to be added. [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What are the entry requirements? Undergraduate Law Generally undergraduate law degrees require a UAI in the mid to high 90's. Each university has different entry requirements. You can read about them at the different university law school websites: • Australian National University • Bond University • Monash University • Macquarie University • University of Queensland • University of Melbourne • University of Newcastle • University of New England • University of New South Wales • University of Sydney • University of Technology Sydney • University of Western Sydney • University of Wollongong Graduate Law Graduate law degrees are for students who have already completed an existing non-law degree. The entry selection process varies between universities, so it is best to clarify with the relevant institution. Generally the selection is based on (1) your university marks, and (2) your UAI, usually with less emphasis on your UAI. Note that honours or post-graduate degrees may make entry much easier. For example, the UNSW law faculty states (here) that applicants with a completed Research Masters or PhD will automatically be offered a place. The USYD law faculty states that applicants with a PhD, or Masters degree by research or an Honours degree (especially First Class) generally receive an offer (see here). Postgraduate Law Be careful to differentiate between graduate law, which is a Bachelor of Laws degree for non-law graduates, and postgraduate law, which includes specialist degrees for law graduates. Postgraduate law includes masters degrees and PhDs that allow in-depth education at higher levels of difficulty. If you want a law degree, post-graduate law is not for you. Note: There are some postgraduate degrees offered by some universities to non-law graduates, but these do not give you any legal qualifications. You need a Bachelor of Laws to practice law. [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What if I don't get straight into law? If you do not make the cut-off for the law course you were seeking a place in, you have three primary options, listed below. You also have one alternate option if you not concerned about obtaining a law degree, but rather you simply wish to practice law. 1. Transfer You can start another degree at a university and work as hard as you can during that year. At the end of the year, when it is time to submit university preferences to UAC, you then apply to transfer. Note that: (1) this can be very difficult to achieve if you are applying for a high UAI cut-off course, such as law at USYD, and (2) several universities have restrictions on transferring, including that you can only transfer after 1 year of tertiary study and no more. See the section on transfers. 2. Full fee-paying As you know, the government subsidises your tertiary studies. This is why normal university places are called "Commonwealth Funded Places" (CFP). The old name for this scheme was the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS). However, several universities offer places where the government does not subsidise your degree and you can pay the full amount of the course fees. These are domestic full-fee paying places (DFEE). The advantage of doing this is that full-fee paying places allow entry to students with up to 5 UAI places lower than the required CFP cut-off. Note that this is a maximum. Some full fee paying course cut-offs, such as USYD law, can be only 1 or 2 points lower. Thus, if you received a UAI of 97 and the CFP cut-off was 99.15, the university may have a full-fee paying cut-off of 96, allowing you to get in with a lower mark. You will of course have to pay a much higher fee (approximately $18,000-20,000 per year), and you must pay these fees upfront, on a per-semester basis. Compare this with CFP courses, where the fee is approximately $6000 a year, and is deferred (you pay it back slowly as you reach a certain salary). Additionally, you can attempt to transfer from a DFEE place to a CFP place after 1 year of study in that degree. This is done through the normal transfer calculation, whereby your tertiary studies are combined with your UAI. For UNSW or USYD, to be competitive in transferring from DFEE to CSP, you would need a distinction average at uni and a UAI of around 96. (See here for more details.) 3. Graduate Law You can always complete a non-law degree and then seek entry into a graduate law degree. The advantage is that you may perform to a higher standard in your second degree after having the discipline, scholarly training and experience you reap from any university degree (essay writing, research, independent learning, knowledge of the system, more realistic expectations, etc). The disadvantage of this is that you risk not being allowed entry and it will usually take longer to complete two separate degrees rather than a combined law degree. Entry into graduate law is determined through considering your UAI and tertiary results, with emphasis on the latter. However, different universities vary on their admissions selection process for graduate law so it is best to seek advice from the relevant institution. Note that if you really just want to do a law degree, there is a danger (at least for some) of losing motivation throughout the first degree. This is a problem, since you will have to do well in your first degree to gain entry to graduate law. 4. Legal Practitioners Admission Board If you have your heart set on practicing law, but for whatever reason university is not an option, you may like to consider the Legal Practioners Admission Board Diploma of Law course. It is much easier to get into than university law degrees, but it has been said that it is a very challenging course. You can find information on the course at this site: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlin.../lpab_dipinlaw [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What degree should I combine law with? The short answer is it doesn't matter. More to be added later. [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What subjects will I study? The subjects you will study depends on what university you attend and what you combine law with. Of the law subjects you will study, generally the core, compulsary courses are as follows: • Torts - law of civil wrongs; deals with wrongful acts between private individuals or groups, in particular the law of negligence. • Contract Law - deals with agreements between parties and the enforcement of mutual promises; how they are created, terminated, breached, what remedies can be sought and other related issues. • Criminal Law - deals with the laws regulating behaviour considered to be morally unacceptable and 'criminal'; types of crime (assault, public disorder, drug offences, rape, murder, etc), how the criminal justice system operates, procedural issues, defences and sentencing. • Property Law - covers the law governing private property - personal property, land law and equity; how property is defined, transferred, regulated and how to deal with competing property interests. • Administrative Law - deals with the law concerning accountability and control of government officials. Topics may include: delegated legislation, duty to give reasons for administrative decisions, freedom of information, the Ombudsman, Administrative Appeals Tribunals, and judicial review of administrative action. • Federal Constitutional Law/Public Law - deals with powers, regulations and rights relating to the most important legal document in Australia - the Constitution, and how our system of government works. Topics may include: legislative powers and their limitations, the Westminster system, federation, indigenous peoples and sovereignty, human rights and bills of rights, the federal parliament, the separation of powers and constitutional change. • Litigation - involves civil and criminal pre-trial procedure (including the process for initiating a case, pleading rules, serving court process, discovery and exchange of information between parties, etc) and trial procedure, including the presentation of evidence. There are also a number of electives that one can choose to study. For example, international law, advanced torts, chinese law or internet law. You can see what subjects various law faculties offer on their websites: • ANU • MAQU • UNSW • UOW • USYD • UTS • UWS [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What are law classes like? Yet to be added. [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Does HSC legal studies help? In short, no. You do not have to have studied legal studies and you will be at no disadvantage for not having undertaken it. Undertaking legal studies in the HSC probably demonstrates your enthusiasm for law, which is great. Your legal studies in high school will give you a flavour of law within society and some insight into the type of fields you might study at university. However the background knowledge reaped from HSC Legal Studies is of little consequence in your actual law degree. The Legal Institutions (USYD) and Foundations of Law (UNSW) type courses, which run for 1 semester at the beginning of your law degree, cover anything important that you might have learnt in legal studies. [Back to: University | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What are law students like? Are they very competitive, hot, arrogant? Law student noneother says: Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Who are the law students on these forums? These are the people studying law on Bored of Studies. Considering that they are studying a variety of different degrees at different institutions, an endeavour has been made to list them in the chance that they may be able to provide people with specific information: • 04er - 3rd Year, Com/Law, USYD • agentprovocater - 2nd Year, International Studies/Law, UTS • Demandred - 3rd Year, Eco/Law, UWS • Frigid - 4th Year, Com/Law, UNSW • Giant Lobster - 3rd Year, Com/Law, UNSW • Goodtogo - (Now graduated), Business Admin/Law, MQ • gordo - 3rd Year, Aeron. Space Eng/Law, USYD • hfis - 3rd Year, B Laws/GDip Legal Practice, UOW • Jennifer - 3rd Year, Business/Law, UWS • Jonathan A - 4th Year, Social Sci/Law, UWS • Lainee - 3rd Year, Com/Law, USYD • LaraB - 3rd Year, Business/Law, UWS • Lazarus - 6th Year, Science/Law, UNSW • MaryJane - 4th Year, Arts/Law, MQ • Melsc - 3rd Year, Arts/Law, MQ. • MoonlightSonata - 5th Year Arts/Law, UNSW • mr Eazy - 3rd Year, Business/Law, UTS • Neo_o - 3rd Year, Asian Studies/Law, ANU • Newbie - 4th Year, Com/Law, UNSW • noneother - 3rd Year, Actu/Law, ANU • Not-That-Bright, 3rd Year • Omnidragon - 4th Year, Com/Law, Melb • pigs_can_fly - 4th Year, Com/Law, USYD • PwarYuex - 3rd Year, History/Law, MQ • Rorix - 3rd Year, Com/Law, USYD • rukawasan - 4th Year, Com/Law, UNSW • santaslayer - 4th Year, Com/Law, UOW • stamos - 4th Year, Sci/Law, UNSW • sugared plum • yourdad - Com/Law, UWA • Ziff - 3rd Year, Arts/Law, ANU Please PM MoonlightSonata if your username is not here and you would like it to be. (Last updated January 2007) [Back to: University | Main Contents] Last edited by melsc; 28 Jul 2008 at 12:04 PM. | ||
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20 Jan 2006, 6:26 PM
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| Retired HSC: N/A Gender: Female
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10 Aug 2008, 5:16 PM | 3. Transfers Contents: • What is the application process? • What will I need to transfer? • How are my marks calculated? • Where can I get the NRSL cut-offs? • What happens to my HECS debt? • Terminology [Back to Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What is the application process? To transfer from a non-law degree to law, you need to make an application through the University Admissions Centre (UAC). The process is similar to how high-school students make their application during their HSC. Since you have already completed some tertiary study, you are now classified as a Non-Recent School Leaver (NRSL). This differentiates you from Recent School Leavers, such as those year 12 students completing their HSC. Application Methods You can submit an application through UAC in two ways. The first is using Apply-By-Web, an online application process at the UAC website. Alternatively, you can apply by mail using the form in the 'commercial' version of the UAC guide. The UAC guide is approximately $15 and is available from most newsagents. Important Note Before you begin, it is important to note that some universities have requirements that you must meet to be eligible to transfer into the degrees they offer. One example is that USYD and UNSW do not accept transfers to law if you have undertaken more than 1 year (or equivalent) of university study. Remember to check the UAC guide or the relevant university faculty website to find out what the requirements of transfer are other than just UAI/tertiary marks. Some transfers require Personal Statements/Questionnaires (eg. transfer into Law at UTS). Application Dates Application usually opens in early August (like the HSC applications) and closes on 30 September. However, the UAC does accept late applications with a late fee charge. For 2006 admissions there are three extension dates, each with a higher late fee charge: From 30 September - 31 October: $92 late fee. From 31 October - 30 November: $103 late fee. From 30 November - 2 February: $114 late fee. However, the UAC warns on its website that you should apply as early as possible as most institutions will make the majority of their offers in the Main Round of offers. Additionally, some institutions will not consider applications after certain dates. The Online Application: Apply-By-Web The cost of a NRSL application is $35 (inc. GST). Remember to print out your receipt. Fill out all the relevant information in your application slowly and doublecheck each time (the browser will force you to check and save before you proceed). Remember to note down your UAC Number (eg 95100xxxx) and your PIN (the digits of your birthday as DDMM, for example 1110 for October 11). For the entry FTE (Full Time Equivalence), select the number of years to the end of the year. That is, if you are in first year, and are filling out the application during August, you write 1.0 years (two semesters) completed, instead of 0.5 years (one semester). This is because, by the time the UAC assessor comes to collect your data from your university, you will have had completed two semesters of study already. Fill out your preferences from the course codes in the UAC guide in the order of preference. It doesn't matter if you get it wrong the first time around, because there is always opportunity to re-login and change things. Remember to print out your application summary for future reference. Note: UAC states that Apply-By-Web does not support the Mozilla Firefox browser. I've made my application, what now? Your application will be processed by UAC and an offer will be made based on a similar system to the HSC applications (ie. supply-and-demand). Thus a uni that is accepting 50 NRSL students for your chosen course next year (and only based on UAI/tertiary marks) will offer the places to the 50 NRSL applicants with the highest UAI/tertiary marks. An offer will be made the same time the Main Round of Offers are released (which is roughly 19th January). You can then use the UAC website to check/accept your offers. Some institutions may have online enrolment, while others need you to physically rock-up and enrol. - Written by Frigid. [Back to: Transfers | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What will I need to transfer? Marks Entry to law by transfer is based on a combination of your tertiary study marks and your UAI, each worth 50%. The tertiary study mark used is your Grade Point Average (GPA). How your marks are calculated is explained in detail below, in the next section. You should be successful in transferring if you meet the Non-Recent School Leavers (NRSL) cut-off for the law course you are trying to transfer to. NRSL cut-offs can vary from year to year and are quite unpredictable. It is difficult to obtain what the NRSL cut-offs are because some universities either deny knowledge of them or will not release them to students, such as UNSW. USYD has proven willing to release NRSL cut-offs in the past. Generally a UAI of at least 96 and a GPA of at least 6 will be competitive for transfer to UNSW or USyd. Other Requirements Some universities have specific requirements that you must meet to be eligible to transfer into the degrees they offer. One example is that USYD and UNSW do not accept transfers to law if you have undertaken more than 1 year (or equivalent) of university study. Remember to check the UAC guide or the relevant university faculty website to find out what the requirements of transfer are, other than UAI/tertiary marks. Some universities require Personal Statements/Questionnaires (eg. transfer into Law at UTS). [Back to: Transfers | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How are my marks calculated? Overview If your Non-Recent School Leaver (NRSL) index meets the NRSL cut-off for the law course you are applying to, you should be accepted. Your NRSL index is usually calculated through a combination of your UAI and your university marks with a 50/50 weighting. The university/UAC will take 3 steps: 1. Take your Grade Point Average (GPA) 2. Convert it to a Selection Rank out of 100 3. Average your Selection Rank and UAI. It may seem complicated but it is actually really simple. Read on to find out how. Step-by-Step Instructions 1. Write down your marks First, write down the marks for every subject you have studied at university, along with how many credit points (or "units of credit") each subject is worth. If you have not completed all subjects yet, you may have to estimate the remaining subjects. Quote:
Then convert each mark into a grade. This is done by working out which bracket your mark falls in: • 85 - 100 = High Distinction • 75 - 84 = Distinction • 65 - 74 = Credit • 50 - 64 = Pass • 0 - 49 = Fail Quote:
Now, convert your grades into grade points based on the following: High Distinction = 7 Distinction = 6 Credit = 5 Pass = 4 Pass Conceded = 3 Fail = 0 Quote:
In summary, this is how to calculate GPA in the language of HSC Maths: Quote:
First, multiply each subject's grade point by how many credit points the subject is worth. Then add them all together. Quote:
Quote:
You can now convert your GPA to a Selection Rank by Using the conversion table [see "Schedule 3" on page 4 of the attached .pdf file]. You will most likely have completed 1 year (or equivalent) worth of tertiary study (USYD and UNSW do not accept transfers to law if you have completed more than 1 year). Therefore on the conversion table, you goto the column marked 'Attempted 1.0-2.99 FTE' (1 to < 2 years Full Time Equivalence). This is the 3rd column of numbers. The GPA from the above examples came to 4.875. You can see that from the table, where GPA = 4.80 - 4.89 and 1.0 - 2.99 FTE intersects, the selection rank equates to 88. 6. Your NRSL Index The final NRSL Index is calculated: NRSL Index = (UAI + Selection Rank)/2 (the average of UAI and Selection Rank) Quote:
[Back to: Transfers | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Where can I get the NRSL cut-offs? The Non-Recent School Leaver (NRSL) cut-offs for law vary from year to year. Some universities have proven willing to divulge their cut-offs, others have not. It would be best to phone the university you want to transfer to and ask them. It could be difficult obtaining them because you may have to speak to several people before you find someone with enough knowledge of the system to assist you. Known NRSL Cut-offs: Cut-offs will be added as we become aware of them. [Back to: Transfers | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What happens to my HECS debt? Yet to be added. [Back to: Transfers | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Terminology Grade Point Average (GPA) GPA is the weighted average measurement of your university grades. It would be unfair to simply average your grades without giving weight to their credit values (so say you got High Distinction in a 2cp subject, but got a Credit in a 10cp subject, it would be hardly fair to say you got a Distinction average). Selection Rank A number obtained by converting your Grade Point Average (GPA) into a rank out of 100, using the attached conversion table. [Back to: Transfers | Main Contents] Last edited by MoonlightSonata; 4 Feb 2007 at 2:17 PM. | |||||||
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20 Jan 2006, 6:48 PM
| #5 (permalink) |
| Retired HSC: N/A Gender: Female
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,534
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10 Aug 2008, 5:16 PM | 4. Employment & Post-uni Contents: • What are employers looking for? • Are marks important? • What are different law firms like? • Going to the bar: sooner or later? • What else can I do with a law degree? • How easy is it to find a job? [Back to Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What are employers looking for? Yet to be added. [Back to: Employment & Post-uni | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Are marks important? Yet to be added. [Back to: Employment & Post-uni | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What are different law firms like? Yet to be added. [Back to: Employment & Post-uni | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Going to the bar: sooner or later? Yet to be added. [Back to: Employment & Post-uni | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What else can I do with a law degree? Yet to be added. [Back to: Employment & Post-uni | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How easy is it to find a job? Yet to be added. [Back to: Employment & Post-uni | Main Contents] Last edited by MoonlightSonata; 20 Jan 2006 at 6:58 PM. |
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20 Jan 2006, 6:52 PM
| #6 (permalink) | ||
| Retired HSC: N/A Gender: Female
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,534
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10 Aug 2008, 5:16 PM | 5. The Legal Profession Contents: • What do lawyers do? • What is the difference between a barrister and a solicitor? • What is the workload like as a lawyer? • How much money do lawyers earn? • How do I become a barrister? • When should I become a barrister? • Where can I work - firms, suburban practices? • How do I become a judge? • Is law glamourous? • What about those wigs and robes? • Is it a 'nasty' profession? • Are lawyers jerks? [Back to Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What do lawyers do? Lawyers provide legal advice and represent clients in court, or other forms of dispute resolution. Their work can involve: • advising clients • researching the law • preparing cases for trial/hearing • representing clients in court • negotiating on behalf of their client in legal disputes • representing their client in commercial matters such as mergers, agreements, etc • creating, reviewing and explaining legal documents such as contracts, wills, taxation claims, etc. • working with various law reform bodies to provide reports and advice to the government on how to improve the law [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What is the difference between a barrister and a solicitor? A solicitor provides legal advice and typically does not represent clients in court unless it is a small matter (though they have the right to appear). A barrister represents clients in court, prepares submissions for court, and does detailed case preperation. One cannot be both and each requires specific training. Interestingly, in WA and Victoria the professions of barristers and solicitors are fused. Barristers work independently in private chambers and wait for solicitors to refer clients to them. Barristers are not permitted to work as part of a company; they rely soley on solicitors to send them briefs. This is why you cannot simply access a barrister, you must be referred to one. There has been talk of changing this rule in recent times however. Most notably in England firms can hire barristers to work for them rather than access them through private chambers. There has also been talk in England of allowing members of the public to deal directly with barristers. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What is the workload like as a lawyer? Yet to be added. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How much money do lawyers earn? Top Tier Firms The 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey lists the salaries for Sydney top tier firms: Graduate - $63,000 – $70,000. Average: $65,000 1st Year - $72,000 – $80,000. Average: $75,000 2nd Year- $80,000 – $95,000. Average: $87,000 3rd Year - $90,000 – $115,000. Average: $103,000 4th Year - $95,000 – $135,000. Average: $115,000 5th Year - $100,000 – $145,000. Average: $125,000 Senior Associate 1 - $130,000 – $145,000. Average: $135,000 Senior Associate 2 - $140,000 – $165,000. Average: $155,000 Senior Associate 3 - $150,000 – $190,000. Average: $170,000 Senior Associate 4 - $160,000 – $220,000. Average: $180,000 Senior Associate 5-Special Counsel - $180,000 – $295,000. Average: $220,000 Other employment areas, such as Big 4 accounting, investment banking and consulting, would provide similar, if not better salaries. Mid Tier Firms 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for Sydney mid tier firms: Graduate - $50,000 – $66,000. Average: $60,000 1st Year - $59,000 – $78,000. Average: $70,000 2nd Year- $67,000 – $85,000. Average: $78,000 3rd Year - $68,000 – $105,000. Average: $90,000 4th Year - $78,000 – $130,000. Average: $102,000 5th Year - $98,000 – $125,000. Average: $110,000 Senior Associate 1 - $105,000 – $145,000. Average: $125,000 Senior Associate 2 - $114,000 – $150,000. Average: $135,000 Senior Associate 3 - $123,000 – $180,000. Average: $145,000 Senior Associate 4 - $135,000 – $180,000. Average: $150,000 Senior Associate 5-Special Counsel - $145,000 – $255,000. Average: $190,000 Small Firms 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for Sydney small firms: Graduate - $45,000 – $65,000. Average: $50,000 1st Year - $50,000 – $70,000. Average: $67,000 2nd Year- $56,000 – $80,000. Average: $67,000 3rd Year - $65,000 – $100,000. Average: $76,000 4th Year - $75,000 – $110,000. Average: $88,000 5th Year - $80,000 – $120,000. Average: $100,000 Senior Associate 1 - $98,000 – $120,000. Average: $108,000 Senior Associate 2+ - $105,000 – $220,000. Average: $155,000 Partners 2007 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for partner renumeration in Sydney (average): Top Tier Firms - $1,084,000 Mid Tier Firms - $676,500 Small Firms - $442,800 In-house 2007 Mahlab Corporate Survey salaries for Sydney: 1st Year - $60,000 – $85,000. Average: $72,000 2nd Year - $70,000 – $90,000. Average: $85,000 3rd Year - $85,000 – $125,000. Average: $100,000 4th Year - $105,000 – $150,000. Average: $130,000 5th Year - $120,000 – $170,000. Average: $150,000 6th + Years - $130,000 – $220,000. Average: $180,000 DGC - $145,000– $285,000. Average: $235,000 General Counsel - $165,00 – $600,000+. Average: $290,000 Salaries Overseas Since law is a generalist degree, the opportunity to work overseas in areas of commercial law has grown increasingly popular. Australian law graduates have found themselves competitive hires for law firms in London, Dubai and Hong Kong. "Although costs of living may be higher, graduates can expect average salaries to be far higher in several overseas destinations. In top law firms in New York they can expect US$125,000 ($170,600). In London it’s around £50,000 ($118,000) for London firms and £80,000 for US-based firms in the UK. In Hong Kong they can expect HK$804,000 ($141,700) from London firms and HK$972,000 ($171,300) from US-based firms. This compares to about $52,000 as a base salary in Australian firms": Lawyer's Weekly. 2006 Mahlab Private Practice Survey salaries for overseas practice: Hong Kong Salaries: Newly Qualified - HK$56,000 – HK$68,000 PQE 1 - HK$60,000 – HK$75,000 PQE 2 - HK$65,000 – HK$82,000 PQE 3 - HK$70,000 – HK$88,000 PQE 4 - HK$76,000 – HK$97,000 PQE 5 - HK$80,000 – HK$105,000 London Salaries: Newly Qualified - £46,000 – £55,000 PQE 1 - £50,000 – £61,000 PQE 2 - £55,000 – £70,000 PQE 3 - £58,000 – £77,000 PQE 4 - £65,000 – £82,000 PQE 5 - £72,000 – £89,000 New York Salaries: Newly Qualified - US$125,000 – US$144,000 PQE 1 - US$130,000 – US$150,000 PQE 2 - US$135,000 – US$170,000 PQE 3 - US$140,000 – US$185,000 PQE 4 - US$160,000 – US$195,000 PQE 5 - US$175,000 – US$210,000 Singapore Salaries: Newly Qualified - S$95,000 – S$130,000 PQE 1 - S$120,000 – S$150,000 PQE 2 - S$130,000 – S$170,000 PQE 3 - S$150,000 – S$200,000 PQE 4 - S$155,000 – S$235,000 PQE 5 - S$170,000 – S$250,000 Barristers Barristers, being a sole traders, often have a greater income range. A newly-admitted barrister, with little experience and briefs, may scarcely break-even for the first few years. On the other hand, experienced senior counsel may charge appearance fees of upwards of seven thousand dollars per day. Non-corporate and public-sector Public sector and non-corporate salaries tend to be lower than their corporate counterparts. For example, a graduate Associate to a Federal judge is paid approximately $48K. Private suburban firms might pay a graduate $35 - 40K. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How do I become a barrister? After you have a law degree, to become a barrister in NSW there are three stages. Lawyers must: 1. Pass three exams; 2. Complete and pass a four-week Bar practice course; and 3. Serve 11 months effectively as an "apprentice", with either one or two tutors and conditions on their appearance. 1. The Three Exams Ethics for barristers, Aspects of evidence, and Practice and procedure for barristers each require a pass mark of 75 per cent. The three exams are held twice a year, over a period of a week. Lawyers can choose to complete the exams over two sittings, but must pass all three within 12 months. Many will have to re-sit at least one of the exams –last year 91 people sat the June exams (16 didn’t turn up) with a pass rate of 84.13 per cent for practice and procedure, 87.1 per cent for evidence and 96.49 per cent for ethics. In November 2004, 92 sat the exams (22 failed to appear) and 64.86 per cent passed practice and procedure, 81.01 per cent passed evidence and 91.43 per cent passed ethics. To attempt the exams you must pay a $200 non-refundable registration fee for each, and then comes the preparation. Two months prior to the exams, study materials, including a list of recommended reading, case lists, hard to find articles, a sample paper and examination policy and details, are issued on CD-ROM. Ginges says he attended a session for each subject where people from the Bar Association spoke about what was likely to be in the exams, and completed a large amount of reading, including: Uniform Evidence Law by Stephen Odgers SC, the practice and procedure for each of the courts and various cases on ethics. 2. The Bar Practice Course Once these exams are over, lawyers face a one-month wait before finding out if they have achieved the required pass, and must then decide if they will register for the Bar Practice Course. The Bar Practice Course must be commenced within nine months of the first examination pass notification. It is held twice a year, in May and October, and runs for a "very intensive" four weeks – 9am to 6pm each day with extensive work overnight. The course costs $3,000. During this time, participants are not allowed to undertake any other work and it has been said that they should not expect to have time for any sort of social activity. Phil Greenwood SC, a member of the NSW Bar Council and the Bar practice course working party, says the course is designed to expose people coming to the Bar, whether experienced or inexperienced, to the basic skills they will need. The course includes components of advocacy, preparation skills and drafting skills, as well as exposure to a large number of judges and barristers. Participants are required to "perform" certain tasks throughout the course, such as a cross-examination, leading evidence in chief or making an application to the court. They are then subject to appraisal by the judges and senior barristers, and are sometimes videotaped so the participants can assess their own performances. The course culminates in an all-day trial, where the students have to run a court hearing in front of a Supreme Court judge. 3. Apprenticeship On completion of the course, the readers, as they are known for their first 12 months at the Bar, then have to serve the balance of their 'apprenticeship', including 10 days each of civil and criminal reading, which involves attending and observing cases and which must be completed within the first six months. They also select a tutor, who must be a barrister with at least seven years experience, but not a senior counsel. The readers also have to complete some continuing professional development programs. Expenses In NSW, the examination fees amount to $600, provided you don’t fail any, in which case you will be required to pay another $200 per exam to repeat them. Professional indemnity insurance alone will set you back $1,200, or thereabouts, and there is a $100 fee for the practising certificate. It's certainly not worth failing the Bar Practice course at $3,000. It is advised that you are certain you want to take the path to the Bar before you start on it, as the $200 examination fees are non-refundable. The course fee is refundable, minus a $100 administration fee if you withdraw more than 30 days before the course, and applicants providing less notice will pay a $500 administration fee. Robes and wigs cost $2,500, and cleaning is an added expense – it costs $61 each time your wig gets sent to the cleaners. However, it seems many barristers don't bother with this and seniority can be determined by the colour of a barrister's wig. Office equipment, computer, printer and basic financial and practice management software will add up to roughly $4,500 and you will need another $4,000 to get your best practice books and online subscriptions. A trolley will cost you $500. Your grand total (and these are just the basic expenses) will be around $16,400. According to the Bar Association, monthly overheads vary greatly from chambers to chambers. Reading accommodation (including floor fees) can vary from free to $2,500 a month. Sources Most of this information was extracted from LawyersWeekly.com.au: • State of the bar • Rising to the bar • How Much for that wig? Additionally, the NSW Bar Association, the regulatory body for barristers in NSW, has information on their website. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • When should I become a barrister? Few students leave law school and go straight to the Bar. Why not? The simple reason is associated with the ways barristers get business. Unlike a solicitor who can advertise and get people off the street, barristers are sole-traders [who work independently in their own room, adjacent to other barrister rooms, collectively called "chambers"] who usually wait and have clients referred to them by solicitors. This means a barrister must have developed a professional reputation to have a steady stream of clients. Thus the usual pathway to the Bar is to spend a few years in a law firm (of solicitors) and, with his/her abilities recognised, head off to the the Bar and to wait for briefs to arrive. This article may be interesting or relevant on the topic of when to go to the bar: Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Where can I work - firms, suburban practices? If you graduate and start practice, statistically:
[Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • How do I become a judge? Generally the government selects judges when needed from a pool of top barristers. Some academics and professionals have become judges, although this is rare. Typically selection is drawn purely from the top performers at the bar. It takes many years of successful experience practicing law before one will be offered a place as a judge. Judges tend to be appointed in their 50s. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Is law glamourous? This section is still under construction. Law student Santaslayer says: Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • What about those wigs and robes? Wigs confer dignity and solemnity on court proceedings. They also provide anonymity, not in the sense of providing a disguise or camouflage, but a distancing from personal involvement. The wig is an emblem of privilege, and young barristers are keen to retain them, senior members of the bar less so. Surprisingly, it is the clients and other regular court users who are most enthusiastic about retention. They are hot in the summer and if the barrister has not got a good head of hair they can be itchy. Barristers remove them at every opportunity, they are not comfortable. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Is it a 'nasty' profession? Yet to be added. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Are lawyers jerks? Yet to be added. [Back to: The Legal Profession | Main Contents] Last edited by MoonlightSonata; 2 Aug 2007 at 2:02 PM. | ||
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