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Thread: Forced to drop to Standard by School

  1. #101
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluee View Post
    I don't know what they considered low marks. They said in the letter they sent they don't think I would be able to pass the HSC requirements for Advanced English. In terms of failing I believe I would have gotten an E at least for Advanced in my ROSA but in fact I didn't I got a C. Like my high points were getting 14/15 for my Creative and 17/20 for my Speech on King Leah.

    I infact never thought I was doing that bad to be put in such a position to drop to Standard. I thought the whole time I was doing just okay.
    How did you end rank 100+ with getting 14/15 and 17/20?
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    How did you end rank 100+ with getting 14/15 and 17/20?
    I think it's bc Bluee didn't do as well in his/her assessments afterwards, idk

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    How did you end rank 100+ with getting 14/15 and 17/20?
    My grade is pretty good at English in general and my school gets a lot of DAs in Adv English and Ext Eng every year compared to other schools. Like someone whose ranked 80 isn't that different to someone whose ranked 50 where there is a neglible difference in marks. Most of the marks are not that varied or spread out if you get what I means.

    However besides those my Speech and Creative which were earlier in the year. I got 9/15 for my short answers test. For my essay on two different texts I got 9/15 as well. While most people got full marks or close to it. Whilst in my Yearlies I totally bombed out and got 60% as result of having an Exam Block, not managing my time properly on English. Thats why I am 100+ ranked.

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    Junior Member kashkow's Avatar
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    Pointing it out to them might think you're trying to have a debate or roast them or something. And if someone said that to me I'd probably write:
    "We did not have to warn you about dropping, you should've been wary that you weren't performing up to par and done something about it" or something along those lines. And doing well in maths and science won't reinforce your argument about english since they aren't related.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBleach View Post
    The problem is that pointing out that you weren't given an explicit notice makes them think you only care because you're being moved to standard. They might think - if this person's low marks weren't enough motivation to do better during the year, why should we give them a chance?

    As for point two, unfortunately you don't have much else to say...
    Quote Originally Posted by Drongoski View Post
    Do not point out to them in your appeal that they did not give you any prior warning. In my view, they should have had. But, unfortunately, the school/faculty would not appreciate that fact being pointed out.

    You may tell them you were shocked (implying you did not expect it) and devastated to be asked to do Standard. And that you are asking for a second chance to make good etc etc. You may express confidence you will do better given the chance and to humbly and politely point out that you have been doing well in your other (by implication, intellectually demanding) subjects (i.e. you are not too dumb to do Advanced). It is possible your English Department may not be aware you are doing quite well in your other subjects; would you expect them to?
    I had 2 paragraphs of responses (and writing more) but suddenly I lost it all... Rewriting...

    What advice are you guys giving?? Who do you think she is talking with? A five year old??? I'm pretty sure the English faculty at her school would be more mature than to get offended by a student writing a letter because she is concerned about her future educational well-being. Like you guys seriously think they'd be offended or insulted just because she is raising a valid point of not ever receiving prior warning? Do you really think that an English faculty will think she is trying to "roast them" and get upset just because she is writing a letter about her situation, explaining her predicament and letting them know of her concerns/desires? Lol, this to me seems immature way to think in terms about her predicament. If anything, they'd see the concerns and viewpoint of this student and see that she is committed to studying harder now that she DOES realise the consequences and they'd actually be more inclined to admit her to Advanced since THEY never even told her before.

    I get your guys ideas but seriously I don't see anything wrong with the OP using this argument so long as she writes it clearly and respectfully (of course, nowhere am I saying that she should be rude or mean). It is the only thing that I can see that she has to back her point and I think it is she should use it as it is a noteworthy/valid point. She should have received some notice of further consequences from her behaviours or how would she even know to change? The fact she received NO warnings for this means she has a point that she can bring up with the school. Especially since it has consequences are severe such as being forced to be put into Standard (although imo, I don't think it's that bad... But I can see from this student's point of view why she may want to be in Advanced and how this consequence may be "severe").

    Anyway OP, I think you're right in thinking that you can use this argument that you never received any notice or warnings. It is, from my understanding, your main argument to use and I think you should use it to both pressure and convince them of your situation and how you'd like to appeal to be in Advanced so long as you're not rude/mean about it. Because seriously, these are teachers we're talking about who most likely want to see students do well in the future and in their education and if you can convince them that you never knew of the severity of the consequences due to a lack of responsibility on THEIR part (I don't see why they would get upset and thus don't understand the advice given above ^^) I think they'd be more inclined to give you another chance. But obviously they have the power still so be clear, and make your argument strong but be respectful, cuz if you go down the track of being rude and abrupt they may not take you seriously.

    End of the day, I think it will be their choice. Also if you're sorta stretching anything here and they did provide warnings to the students in class, reports or on an Assessment feedback, then maybe you have no argument (or if it is school policy and they told you that if you didn't make a certain cut you cant get in). But if you definitely do not remember any time where they had this warning or they've told you of this policy or whatever, then you've got an argument so you should still appeal.
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by kashkow View Post
    I had 2 paragraphs of responses (and writing more) but suddenly I lost it all... Rewriting...

    What advice are you guys giving?? Who do you think she is talking with? A five year old??? I'm pretty sure the English faculty at her school would be more mature than to get offended by a student writing a letter because she is concerned about her future educational well-being. Like you guys seriously think they'd be offended or insulted just because she is raising a valid point of not ever receiving prior warning? Do you really think that an English faculty will think she is trying to "roast them" and get upset just because she is writing a letter about her situation, explaining her predicament and letting them know of her concerns/desires? Lol, this to me seems immature way to think in terms about her predicament. If anything, they'd see the concerns and viewpoint of this student and see that she is committed to studying harder now that she DOES realise the consequences and they'd actually be more inclined to admit her to Advanced since THEY never even told her before.

    I get your guys ideas but seriously I don't see anything wrong with the OP using this argument so long as she writes it clearly and respectfully (of course, nowhere am I saying that she should be rude or mean). It is the only thing that I can see that she has to back her point and I think it is she should use it as it is a noteworthy/valid point. She should have received some notice of further consequences from her behaviours or how would she even know to change? The fact she received NO warnings for this means she has a point that she can bring up with the school. Especially since it has consequences are severe such as being forced to be put into Standard (although imo, I don't think it's that bad... But I can see from this student's point of view why she may want to be in Advanced and how this consequence may be "severe").

    Anyway OP, I think you're right in thinking that you can use this argument that you never received any notice or warnings. It is, from my understanding, your main argument to use and I think you should use it to both pressure and convince them of your situation and how you'd like to appeal to be in Advanced so long as you're not rude/mean about it. Because seriously, these are teachers we're talking about who most likely want to see students do well in the future and in their education and if you can convince them that you never knew of the severity of the consequences due to a lack of responsibility on THEIR part (I don't see why they would get upset and thus don't understand the advice given above ^^) I think they'd be more inclined to give you another chance. But obviously they have the power still so be clear, and make your argument strong but be respectful, cuz if you go down the track of being rude and abrupt they may not take you seriously.

    End of the day, I think it will be their choice. Also if you're sorta stretching anything here and they did provide warnings to the students in class, reports or on an Assessment feedback, then maybe you have no argument (or if it is school policy and they told you that if you didn't make a certain cut you cant get in). But if you definitely do not remember any time where they had this warning or they've told you of this policy or whatever, then you've got an argument so you should still appeal.
    Yeah true but from experience, some teachers get offended when you try to point out their faults and how they run the english department
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by kashkow View Post
    End of the day, I think it will be their choice. Also if you're sorta stretching anything here and they did provide warnings to the students in class, reports or on an Assessment feedback, then maybe you have no argument (or if it is school policy and they told you that if you didn't make a certain cut you cant get in). But if you definitely do not remember any time where they had this warning or they've told you of this policy or whatever, then you've got an argument so you should still appeal.
    I can't tell you I am 100% sure that I never got any kind of warning or that there is such a school policy. Not even in my Half Yearly and Yearly report now that I have just checked. Only on the last week of term did I get such a warning in the letter that was sent to me.

    Dude this whole post made my day. I can't explain that there is someone out there who can at least emphasise with my situation. Most of these posts have been only critical of me and pessimistic I can't explain how grateful I am to you.

    I have read every bit of that post twice in a row! This is what I was looking for.
    Last edited by Bluee; 27 Sep 2016 at 12:42 AM.
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    Yeah true but from experience, some teachers get offended when you try to point out their faults and how they run the english department
    Then I think in general they're being immature if it is reasonable and respectful (and I mean this respectfully. I understand everyone may have faults or personal things going on). Obviously anyone may get offended if you are rude about it or do it just for the lolz to put the teacher down. Otherwise if you always point stuff out but never provide any helpful feedback, it may come across as a criticism by some teachers. But I don't think this is the case :P I think here the student actually wants to improve and do better, so yeah.

    Plus the intention isn't really to point out the faults of the English faculty but use this as a case to support her argument so she can do better in her education. So long as OP can write a respectful email detailing her argument succinctly without making it look as if she is blaming someone or pointing out their faults but rather trying to justify her cause, I don't see why any English teacher would get offended. And if they do then it would be the fault of that teacher, for whatever reason.
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    Junior Member kashkow's Avatar
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluee View Post
    I can't tell you I am 100% sure that I never got any kind of warning. Not even in my Half Yearly and Yearly now that I have just checked. Only on the last week of term did I get such a warning in the letter that was sent to me.

    Dude this whole post made my day. I can't explain that there is someone out there who can least emphasise with my situation. Most of these posts have been only critical of me and pessimistic I can't explain how grateful I am to you.
    Haha, no problem. I'm glad I could make your day and help out!

    Well what I'd do is check your feedback/reports or any English related feedback that is significant (like assessable content) and look for comments/warnings like you've done for your Half Yearly/Yearly exams. If there is no written feedback there and you can't remember ever getting a warning I'd still email them about it. Even if you're not 100% sure that you never got a written/spoken warning because from your perspective, you can't remember a significant time where it was spelled out for you or where you got a warning about your performance. Worst case scenario they tell you that they did give warnings to you at some point and you'd then know that it was your fault. But chances are if you can't remember anything then there's a chance it may not have ever been mentioned before and so you've got a good argument.

    Good luck!
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluee View Post

    I have read every bit of that post twice in a row! This is what I was looking for.
    Haha, funny thing was (although NOT funny at the time, lol) I had written two paragraphs and a bit and then BoS glitched and I lost everything I had written. So I wrote it twice and now you've read it twice :P Glad I wrote it out again though :P
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Update us how it turns out. If you stay in advanced tell us if you improved
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Ask your parents to talk to the school for you?
    I can barely see up and down and back again
    Despite what you believe I keep away from trouble
    If who I am today's a sign of where I'm going
    I'm ready to embrace


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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluee View Post
    Hey guys! I have come back, I think I left a little too early lel

    It would be nice if you give me some good reasons to stay in Advanced so I use them in my next email to the Head Teacher. Please give any reasons besides alligning, saying that the courses have no diffence in difficulty as it turns off all these English teachers at my school when you say that.

    More interesting perscribed texts? It is reccomended for the university course you want to do?
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    If who I am today's a sign of where I'm going
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by BLIT2014 View Post
    Ask your parents to talk to the school for you?
    Doesn't always work
    Quote Originally Posted by BLIT2014 View Post
    More interesting perscribed texts? It is reccomended for the university course you want to do?
    I don't think english advanced would be a recommendation for any course, not even law. Also I think "more interesting prescribed texts" is not a legit reason to stay in advanced, because the teachers would either say "but this is too hard for someone on your level" or "the prescribed texts in Standard are just as interesting as those in advanced"

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_SSEDU View Post
    I don't usually post but I logged in this time because I just had to.

    Seriously, reading this makes my blood boil. How a school can tell you what you can and can't study is a complete out rage to me, schools should be there for the students, not for themselves and their reputation.

    To everyone telling Bluee not to make a fuss about it, you should seriously have a good long hard think about what your saying. Exam marks aside (she didn't even do poorly) a school shouldn't have any right whatsoever to determine what a student can choose for their subjects and even if they did legally, how does it even seem ethical? Think about that.

    The only way I can even justify this is because of the lack of school resources for them to open more advanced classes. But that's another issue all together, so following occam's razor I'm just not going to assume that's the case for now.

    For a school to determine that "you will fail advanced" just because of your past performance is ridiculous. I just can't even put into words how strongly I feel about this, and this isn't the first time I've heard schools do this. I think it's a bloody outrage.

    I'm completely there with you Kashkow, some posters here recommending she just cop it on the chin and move on are completely lost. What will that teach? that everytime someone of authority dictates something to you, that you just take it?

    If you want it Bluee I recommend you fight for it, and make a lot of noise about it as well. You've definitely got my support, and any other student who's been told they can't do something just because of their teacher or their schooling system has my support too.

    I'm probably taking this too personally, but I have a deep hatred for all the teachers and people who told me or anyone they can't do something because of whatever. What's the harm in letting them? That they will fail? Lifes all about failure, so let them atleast learn that in a safe schooling environment. They act as if they're doing a huge favour for you by dropping you to standard when you WANT to do advanced.

    Fight for it Bluee, make noise. I'm willing to put my money that SMH or some media networks are going to pick up on this trend sooner or later, that schools are denying students access to subjects because of their previous and past performance. Your story is definitely not the first Bluee, and it's definitely not going to be the last, so fight for it because all these other students are just going to take it.

    Bluee. If you ever need help writing a letter to the school fighting for your want to do Advanced I'm more then happy to help you out personally on this one. Just PM me.
    ^this post. OMG you are an absolute legend, so supportive of someone on the internet that you don't know in real life. I don't think I've met anyone whose done this sort of thing before

    Thing is some schools don't want the weaker kids to drag down the cohort average, that's why they wouldn't want some students doing the course

    If Bluee wants to make a lot of noise about this issue of not being permitted to study English Advanced out of school, then you'll have to take it outside to organisations like the DET but you'll have to provide a legitimate reason as to why

    Thing is IDK if Bluee's school would want to associate with someone not associated with the school especially when he/she isn't known to the school

    Also for subjects which are popular (such as MX2 at selective schools), they can restrict the amount of people doing it as it is optional

    Also dropping to english standard is bad, because it is dead difficult to get a band 6 in standardas less than 1% of the state can get it

    Basically them not allowing you to do advanced has messed up your ATAR
    Last edited by eyeseeyou; 29 Sep 2016 at 11:36 AM.

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Thanks eyeseeyou, I had to redact it because of it's association with where i work. But yes, my offer still stands for Bluee. This is something that I've seen happen far too often. Not sure how much will come from fighting it, but that doesn't matter. At least you fought, and that's what counts.
    Last edited by Thomas_SSEDU; 29 Sep 2016 at 11:49 AM.

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by eyeseeyou View Post
    ^this post. OMG you are an absolute legend, so supportive of someone on the internet that you don't know in real life. I don't think I've met anyone whose done this sort of thing before

    Thing is some schools don't want the weaker kids to drag down the cohort average, that's why they wouldn't want some students doing the course

    If Bluee wants to make a lot of noise about this issue of not being permitted to study English Advanced out of school, then you'll have to take it outside to organisations like the DET but you'll have to provide a legitimate reason as to why

    Thing is IDK if Bluee's school would want to associate with someone not associated with the school especially when he/she isn't known to the school

    Also for subjects which are popular (such as MX2 at selective schools), they can restrict the amount of people doing it as it is optional

    Also dropping to english standard is bad, because it is dead difficult to get a band 6 in standardas less than 1% of the state can get it

    Basically them not allowing you to do advanced has messed up your ATAR
    The highest ATAR with english standard last year was 99.35 so how is that "messing up your atar"? That's beating more than 98% of the whole state with a subject "dead difficult to get a band 6" even though it's not even more difficult
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    New Member Thomas_SSEDU's Avatar
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    The highest ATAR with english standard last year was 99.35 so how is that "messing up your atar"? That's beating more than 98% of the whole state with a subject "dead difficult to get a band 6" even though it's not even more difficult
    Completely agree, nothing wrong with doing English Standard. Many students have acheived outstanding results with English Standard being part of their examinable subjects.

    I see the issue lying with being made to do something that you didn't want to do. If a student wants to do a particular subject for a particular resason, whether it be to attain a particular ATAR or because they enjoy the subject, I feel that that should be on the student to decide not on the school.

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    The highest ATAR with english standard last year was 99.35 so how is that "messing up your atar"? That's beating more than 98% of the whole state with a subject "dead difficult to get a band 6" even though it's not even more difficult
    I meant that getting a band 6 was difficult for English Standard was difficult since you need to be on par with the top 300-500 students in the State which is way too much effort compared to Advanced

    It's "messed up your ATAR" as you (depending on the student) will need to sacrifice a lot of time from other subs just to focus on english standard

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by eyeseeyou View Post
    I meant that getting a band 6 was difficult for English Standard was difficult since you need to be on par with the top 300-500 students in the State which is way too much effort compared to Advanced

    It's "messed up your ATAR" as you (depending on the student) will need to sacrifice a lot of time from other subs just to focus on english standard
    Also if someone has the potential to improve and get a band 6 in advanced they should band 6 in standard too. And also schools don't care about an individual student, they care about the whole cohort. They would rather have the whole cohort do well rather than one guy drag them down because they didn't kick them out because it's unfair for the cohort if one guy brings down all their effort.
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_SSEDU View Post
    Completely agree, nothing wrong with doing English Standard. Many students have acheived outstanding results with English Standard being part of their examinable subjects.

    I see the issue lying with, being made to do something that you didn't want to do. If a student wants to do a particular subject for a particular resason, whether it be to attain a particular ATAR or because they enjoy the subject, I feel that that should be on the student to decide not on the school.
    yeah but the thing is you need to put in way too much effort in order to do well in standard as I had reiterated multiple times already it is hard to get a band 6 for english standard as less than 1% of the state get a band 6 for english standard

    I agree. Also a subject choice could make a difference in getting a better ATAR e.g. 100 in 3U maths vs 95 in 4U maths, what is better? Teachers assume all this rubbish from the top of their heads and don't realise that prelim is a testing year where you learn from your mistakes and prepare for the HSC, not a year to do a course and think that if you're doing bad, your never ever allowed to do the subject ever
    4025808 likes this.

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by eyeseeyou View Post
    yeah but the thing is you need to put in way too much effort in order to do well in standard as I had reiterated multiple times already it is hard to get a band 6 for english standard as less than 1% of the state get a band 6 for english standard

    I agree. Also a subject choice could make a difference in getting a better ATAR e.g. 100 in 3U maths vs 95 in 4U maths, what is better? Teachers assume all this rubbish from the top of their heads and don't realise that prelim is a testing year where you learn from your mistakes and prepare for the HSC, not a year to do a course and think that if you're doing bad, your never ever allowed to do the subject ever
    You can't talk about effort or else no one would do 4 unit because it requires so much time and study for 2 units but people still do it.

    Also english prelim is important because it's practically the same thing but with different texts and different assessments, possibly a speech. In our exams they gave us an hour to write essays and creatives to see our full potentiial to see who to drop anyway.

    And I'm pretty sure a "warning" isn't required, I'm certain that EVERYONE knows that you can get dropped from any subject in year 11 and if not they probably just don't care about getting dropped.
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    Also if someone has the potential to improve and get a band 6 in advanced they should band 6 in standard too. And also schools don't care about an individual student, they care about the whole cohort. They would rather have the whole cohort do well rather than one guy drag them down because they didn't kick them out because it's unfair for the cohort if one guy brings down all their effort.
    Yeah true. Thing is if they want the cohort to do well as a whole rather than let a desperate student doing the course drag down the cohort average, then the should actually have an interview with that one guy on why he should do english advanced and what he would do in order to no drag down the cohort average, and actually get the cohort to work as a whole so there can be a fairer distribution of marks (but ensure the person not performing well in advanced is actually putting in time and effort in the subject so he/she doesn't drag the cohort down)

    Getting a band 6 in standard is hard as less than 1% of the state get a band 6. Even at my school, out of 4 people who take their learning seriously (out of a standard cohort of 50), I can see only 1 getting a band 6

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    You can't talk about effort or else no one would do 4 unit because it requires so much time and study for 2 units but people still do it.

    Also english prelim is important because it's practically the same thing but with different texts and different assessments, possibly a speech. In our exams they gave us an hour to write essays and creatives to see our full potentiial to see who to drop anyway.

    And I'm pretty sure a "warning" isn't required, I'm certain that EVERYONE knows that you can get dropped from any subject in year 11 and if not they probably just don't care about getting dropped.
    Yeah kinda but the thing is people still aren't used to writing at a high standard and by the end of the prelim course people start to realise that they needed to write to a senior standard as opposed to a year 10 standard (for some people and how we continue to write at a year 10 standard when supposed to be writing to a year 11/12 standard)

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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by eyeseeyou View Post
    Yeah kinda but the thing is people still aren't used to writing at a high standard and by the end of the prelim course people start to realise that they needed to write to a senior standard as opposed to a year 10 standard (for some people and how we continue to write at a year 10 standard when supposed to be writing to a year 11/12 standard)
    You can't just go "oh I'm in year 12 time to write at a senior standard" and then go write really good and improve 100 ranks it doesn't work like that
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    Re: Forced to drop to Standard by School

    Quote Originally Posted by pikachu975 View Post
    You can't just go "oh I'm in year 12 time to write at a senior standard" and then go write really good and improve 100 ranks it doesn't work like that
    But people aren't used to writing at that sort of standard in yr 11

    Also for English standard, I'm sure you'll need to write to that standard as well

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