Private school students scoop scholarships. BIG surprise, huh?

[OliverHolmes]

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Private school students scoop scholarships | theage.com.au

Wow.

'Equitable access to education'?

A higher education system that is 'representative of the broad community'?

Isn't it refreshing to know that social stratification continues to be reproduced and confirmed by Victorian universities?

The message: if you want educational success, and scholarship chances, ensure you exhibit the appropriate (learned) cultural and social capital courtesy of a thoroughly inequitable secondary education system.

Otherwise - bad luck.

To all recent VCE graduates from public schools - how does it feel to be perpetually disadvantaged beyond your control? Fun, isn't it?

[babikakez]

I doubt that the universities are discriminating based upon public/private status. It just so happens that the majority of the students achieving 99.95 are from private schools. Thats what I got from the article.
However, there is a notable gap between public and private schools, I am not denying this.

[OliverHolmes]

Originally Posted by babikakez

I doubt that the universities are discriminating based upon public/private status. It just so happens that the majority of the students achieving 99.95 are from private schools.

"It just so happens..."?

That's naive in the extreme. Wouldn't you consider, at least, that there must be some causal link present in the phenomena under consideration for such a result?

It's not a form of active discrimination in the conventional sense, but an institutionalised system of distinction and selection favouring a specific group - an inherent outcome of a fundamentally inequitable educational system.

The universities can claim simple recognition of academic merit - but we all know academic achievement is intrinsically linked to social class stratification.

It's akin to a foot race that allows assistance for a select few, and significant handicaps for the broader majority.

Public school students would be wise to take note - as this reality is at their expense.

Isn't the VCE fun?

[glenda2007]

Originally Posted by OliverHolmes

"It just so happens..."?

That's naive in the extreme. Wouldn't you consider, at least, that there must be some causal link present in the phenomena under consideration for such a result?

It's not a form of active discrimination in the conventional sense, but an institutionalised system of distinction and selection favouring a specific group - an inherent outcome of a fundamentally inequitable educational system.

The universities can claim simple recognition of academic merit - but we all know academic achievement is intrinsically linked to social class stratification.

It's akin to a foot race that allows assistance for a select few, and significant handicaps for the broader majority.

Public school students would be wise to take note - as this reality is at their expense.

Isn't the VCE fun?

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are trying to imply that going to a private school will automatically mean that you would get a high enter. If so you are highly misconceived.

Students at private schools do not have to work any less to obtain the marks they do. Indeed their parents posess the funds to send their children to these schools. Their is no evidence suggesting that if these students went to a public school they would perform any worse.

You also state that academics are linked to social class ? It is ironic to note that a majority of private school students are from dual working families and in most instances parents sacrafice alot to send their children to these schools. These schools are open to almost everybody and if you want to get in most cases their must be a sacrafice on your behalf

You also fail to note that 2 of the best performing schools in VIC are public proving their is avenues of academic extension and enrichment in the public sector to cater for brighter children. Accel programs exist also.

So my message to you is stop attacking the private school kids who got a perfect enter. Yes they may have been educated in nicer buildings but it doesn't mean they placed any les effort to obtain the amazing results they did. In another article from the age, one of the boys who got a perfect enter score from Melb Grammar in his first years in Australia only slept a few hours each day spending the rest to study. The key to success in this case was pure determination and dedication.

[ephemeral]

Originally Posted by OliverHolmes

Private school students scoop scholarships | theage.com.au

Wow.

'Equitable access to education'?

A higher education system that is 'representative of the broad community'?

Isn't it refreshing to know that social stratification continues to be reproduced and confirmed by Victorian universities?

The message: if you want educational success, and scholarship chances, ensure you exhibit the appropriate (learned) cultural and social capital courtesy of a thoroughly inequitable secondary education system.

Otherwise - bad luck.

To all recent VCE graduates from public schools - how does it feel to be perpetually disadvantaged beyond your control? Fun, isn't it?

Someone's bitter.

Glenda2007 is right

[BeeHee]

[quote=glenda2007]
Students at private schools do not have to work any less to obtain the marks they do. Indeed their parents posess the funds to send their children to these schools. Their is no evidence suggesting that if these students went to a public school they would perform any worse.


So why the hell go to a private school? 13 grand at a minimum must give you something results wise! Otherwise why are parents working two jobs if their kid will do the same at a state school? I don't think it is for the blazer

I think oliver is uneccesarily angry but he has a point. While 99.95 is an amazing achievement i don't think you should get a free ride on your further education because you chose only to sleep two or three hours a night. What about those who devoted hours of a busy life to volunteering for those less fortunate, students who were the sole bread winner in their part time job for a whole family or cared for a sick parent. Kids in public school because there is no other option. There are scholarships but nothing of the fanfare or scope of the 'high achievers'
The VCE system favours an elite private school system because of the way it ranks students and how internal marks are decided. But as a state school kid who got 95+ doing humanities subjects, i just wryly smile as my fellow melbourne uni Arts kids who spent 13 years geared toward getting the number struggle in an academic world that doesn't spoon feed the way they are used to. Students who got the 99+ and amazing scholarships.
Of course this is a generalisation but it comes from first hand accounts of private school educated friends who can now admitt that they were pushed to a score.
I might not have got an amazing scholarship but i got other experiences and lessons out of my $250 education that i am sad my private school friends missed out on.

[glenda2007]

Originally Posted by BeeHee

[quote=glenda2007]
Students at private schools do not have to work any less to obtain the marks they do. Indeed their parents posess the funds to send their children to these schools. Their is no evidence suggesting that if these students went to a public school they would perform any worse.


So why the hell go to a private school? 13 grand at a minimum must give you something results wise! Otherwise why are parents working two jobs if their kid will do the same at a state school? I don't think it is for the blazer

I think oliver is uneccesarily angry but he has a point. While 99.95 is an amazing achievement i don't think you should get a free ride on your further education because you chose only to sleep two or three hours a night. What about those who devoted hours of a busy life to volunteering for those less fortunate, students who were the sole bread winner in their part time job for a whole family or cared for a sick parent. Kids in public school because there is no other option. There are scholarships but nothing of the fanfare or scope of the 'high achievers'
The VCE system favours an elite private school system because of the way it ranks students and how internal marks are decided. But as a state school kid who got 95+ doing humanities subjects, i just wryly smile as my fellow melbourne uni Arts kids who spent 13 years geared toward getting the number struggle in an academic world that doesn't spoon feed the way they are used to. Students who got the 99+ and amazing scholarships.
Of course this is a generalisation but it comes from first hand accounts of private school educated friends who can now admitt that they were pushed to a score.
I might not have got an amazing scholarship but i got other experiences and lessons out of my $250 education that i am sad my private school friends missed out on.

Dear Beehee

when you talk about why parents should choose public over private you automatically assume that it is purely due to academics and fail to consider the myriad of other reasons why parents make the choice.

Examples : better pastoral care, larger music program, better facilities, extensive sports program, larger variety of co-curricular activities, general school vibe, community feel and in some cases they just have money to blow !

Secondly I don't understand how you can define working extremely hard and sleeping less a "free ride". Not many students can say with conviction that they put as much dedication and effort into their work as this boy has so it is extremely you attack his achievements as a "free ride".

Furthermore not to personally attack you but you raise stereotypical arguments. What evidence is their backing that students at public schools do more volunteering then private schools. What evidence is their backing that public school students are disadvantaged because they have to work and private students don't. This is a huge generalisation and is impossible to back up.

Also your definition of "spoon feeding" . Is it so wrong that teachers are dedicated to their students and are willing to offer their time in lunchtimes etc. to help. Is it wrong for a student to send a teacher an email about work problems and get a prompt reply. Is it wrong for a teacher to have high expectations in their students ? When it comes down to deadlines in my experience their is little leeway and private schools adhere to the VCE submission protocols like every other school.

In my opinion VCE is a fair system that is moderated well. In english especially marks are extremely subjective. What if an english paper at a public school was graded an A and the same paper at a private school was graded a C ? Moderation helps balance this out and in no way are students disadvantaged for attending public or private

[BeeHee]

Oh Glenda 2007 you didn't understand what my main arguments were which is the fault of a hurried response. My bad . I wanted to curb the excitement of oliver and was quickly jumping in my mind from one thing to another.

To clarify i didn't say that sleep less and working hard was a free ride but the scholarship that came from such great determination and work ethic gives him a free ride financially in his further education. I didn't mean this negatively. I would love a free ride. I just wish more people and a diverse lot of people were getting the ride too.

17 of the 20 kids who got those scholarships came from private schools, is this becasue public school kids aren't smart or working at it enough? 3 were from Xavier. I think the school has an xfactor that may just come in to it.
Also i didn't write that kids who volunteer or have tough times at home or working all the time are state kids. not what i meant at all.
I am sorry if it read that way but i was speaking generally about how scholarships are given.

I added with what i meant as a side note (which i think is the source of misunderstanding) that often no other option is available for some who attend public school. My argument there was not about the ridiculous private public debate rather how an ENTER should not be the only thing we judge and give attention to when labelling 'high achievers'. I realsie it was out of context with the first posts but i was thinking aloud about how scholarships are given...sorry. It was certainly nothing to do with where you go to school.

In terms of spoon feeding again i wasn't using my own words but that of friends who have gone to exculsive schools use it to describe their own experiences. I see you complete VCE in 2010? Take it from someone who has the experience once you get to uni there is a lack of prompt replies or even someone who knows the information you are after. Self reliance is the most important tool a teacher can give you ultimatley, not fielding your phone calls out of hours. I got a bit more of that from my education then my private school friends i have found.

You list the other reasons for going to a private school and of course they have merit. But this is a debate about a schools ability to help a student reach their academic potenial whcih must be a huge influence in deciding where a child completes year 12.
Can you honestly say a parent spending 20 000 for their childs year 12 education doesnt want results in their VCE results?? Why are most private school advertising campaigns about their great results? I don't think there is anything wrong in having such expectations but lets be honest about it. There was a case last year where a father of kids at a bayside grammar sued the school because they hadn't helped his sons to the results he expected.

You keep saying that in no way is a student disadvantaged for going to a public school yet why is it that so many people don't? The US has something like 90% of students at public schools and we are slipping down to 70 or something? It isn't about pastrol care or music programs at the root of the issue but a loss of faith from year seven onwards that the child won't be supported and get the results if they are at state school. And look at the media coverage of the results, the perfect scores, the top achievers in the paper and it is absolutly dominated by private schools. So what are parents of students going to think about where they will get good results? I don't mean this in a cold hearted way from a parent view, they want the best for their child.

What about an A in a private school getting marked as a C in public school? But that is actually not really how moderation/ranking disadvantages a state school kid.
Moderation is an issue beacause i was in the situation where i had the best combined sac mark by a mile, going into the exam i had to get at least an a or my whole class including me would have sac marks dropped because my A's through the year must not have been true and marked too softly (teacher told me after results thank god). In private schools success breeding success means you are guaranteed to have at least a few people who can peform to the standered mark. That is also a problem of public school kids, its often an isolating experience of learning as like minded peers are poached to private schools on scholarships or leave the system at the concern of worried parents.

Hope this clears my badly expressed sentiments of the first post up. Cheers

[glenda2007]

Dear Behee

Thanks for the reply. I would just like to clarify that in no ways did I mean for my previous post to be vindictive and hopefully understood it that way. I understand where your coming from and it is a shame that when it comes down to uni offers they are totally reliant on VCE. Like you I believe a applicant can possess other abilities hidden behind the enter score

That is why I firmly believe Australian uni entrance should be changed to the US Model which requires mandatory interviews, essays etc. to better gauge their applicants which will be supported by SAT results or in our case VCE.

I also understand where you are coming from about public schools in most cases having an overall weaker cohort in comparison.

With the introduction of 2 new selective schools and many more planned I hope that the system will be fairer in catering for students of all abilities and providing educational institutions which academically sound students can flourish

Thanks for the great discussion.

Glenda

[notovereighteen]

Originally Posted by glenda2007

Dear Behee

Thanks for the reply. I would just like to clarify that in no ways did I mean for my previous post to be vindictive and hopefully understood it that way. I understand where your coming from and it is a shame that when it comes down to uni offers they are totally reliant on VCE. Like you I believe a applicant can possess other abilities hidden behind the enter score

That is why I firmly believe Australian uni entrance should be changed to the US Model which requires mandatory interviews, essays etc. to better gauge their applicants which will be supported by SAT results or in our case VCE.

I also understand where you are coming from about public schools in most cases having an overall weaker cohort in comparison.

With the introduction of 2 new selective schools and many more planned I hope that the system will be fairer in catering for students of all abilities and providing educational institutions which academically sound students can flourish

Thanks for the great discussion.

Glenda

And you're doing your HSC in 2010?

[babikakez]

Originally Posted by glenda2007

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are trying to imply that going to a private school will automatically mean that you would get a high enter. If so you are highly misconceived.

.

[Ali -]

Oliver has sparked a thread full of well thought out and positively argued comments.

Firstly, Oliver, the way in which you construct your sentences and express yourself is second to none.

This debate of public vs private has been igniting similar debates across the community, media and academic circles. I would have to agree with Oliver to a large extent due to the following:

* due to the relative lack of overall funds available (Gov't + school fees), an inequality is established from the outset in terms of attainable resourcing;

* those that have attended both public and private schools would have observed the stark difference in the 'learning environment':
(i) teachers at private schools spend less time trying to control the class, hence, instead of spending the entire time teaching material, public teachers devote less time on instruction. Public students, therefore, cover less material or, if lucky, have the material crammed by their teacher to make up lost time
(ii) private schools with reputations for academic success have an inherent competitive environment. Fellow students 'push' each other to strive to be number one. Public schools lack that competitive aspect or have one to a much lesser extent. Thus, a student who is the number 1 at a public school may be internally competing against only a handful of genuine class mates whereas at private school classes you have many to 'beat'. This increased level of competition increases ones own performance. Just like playing at the AFL level compared to the VFL. Would Andre Agassi have reached his level of ability without exposure to Pete Sampras?
(iii) at some public schools, students refrain from trying their best so as to not stick out but be accepted instead
(iv) you won't find paper planes flying around virtually all class at a private school
* private school students are more spoon fed by their teachers than public students

{Please note: the above are 'generalisations' and that there are always exceptions to virutally every rule}

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 'if' you were to clone an individual and place one in a private school and the other in a public, that WITHOUT a doubt, and ALL ESLE BEING EQUAL, that the one who attended the private school would graduate with a higher ENTER score. ENTER scores are not I.Q. scores. So although their I.Q. levels should be equal, "environment" would be responsible to the discrepency in ENTER scores.

Just as they 'scale' subjects according to difficulty, the more learned need to work out a scaling system for those not able to access a high school which maximise a student's potential. (Guess they came up with the SEAS system. But that is for the middle band selection.) I believe that a student who achieves an 88 ENTER at Kealba or Springvale is equivalent to a 95 ENTER at Xavier.

Previous comments in this thread mentioned some public schools such as Melbourne High and MacRobertsons do perform well. They are select entry schools! And the other public schools which do fairly well are Balwyn and McKinnon etc...all of which are zoned in expensive suburbs. Thus, 'resourcing' again.

I also adhere to the notion that public school graduates will outperform their counterparts due to them being more acclimatised to 'independent' learning and study.

But the delimna for the public student performing well at Uni, is the hurdle of actually obtaining the ENTER for their Uni course!

** But what is the alternative? There is none at the moment. No system is perfect. Universities must attempt to use a form of 'objective' measuring re: offers as subjective ones are indeed too difficult and inconsistent.

It is not the fault of private school students that they are advantaged. They are being rewarded due to either hardworking parents or the upper socio-economic class their forefathers managed to attain in the past.

But let's not also suggest public school students are on a level playing field as their private school counterparts.

In the end, no system is perfect and "don't hate the player. Hate the game".

[ephemeral]

Ali, I think someone needs to tell you that VCE English issues analysis and response is over.

No one actually writes like that except in tabloid letters to the editor

The only thing I really agree with in there is the bit about the competition at private schools.

This -

I also adhere to the notion that public school graduates will outperform their counterparts due to them being more acclimatised to 'independent' learning and study.

in my experience, is wrong.

[Ali -]

Hi ephemeral. Been a while since my VCE :-)

You may disagree with that notion by all means, but I'm sure you have also read may articles confirming public school graduates do better at Uni than private grads, in general, due to Uni's not spoon feeding their pupils.

We can agree to disagree :-)

[Ali -]

Originally Posted by ephemeral

The only thing I really agree with in there is the bit about the competition at private schools. .

So you are of the opinion that public school students are not disadvantaged in terms of being able to maximise their potential when compared with those from private schools?

In time and experience, you may develop an alternative perspective :-)