STILL trying to figure out which course to do, advice appreciated

[velox]

You can hide this advertisement by registering.

Originally Posted by dvse

"Advanced" maths/science are just a meaningless marketing gimmick and are identical to regular degrees with honours.

If you want credible technical skills and something that can actually be considered an education, you should do all three - maths, computer science and finance. Finance is pretty elementary with the right maths background - can either do a masters or something like CFA.

Keep in mind, however, that most jobs out there do not require any background beyond some general knowledge and arithmetic (and indeed nothing more is imparted by a finance degree alone - in my experience there is no difference between 1st year coop student and a graduate). How well you will do depends on qualities that are not taught.

See my other posts on this.


Oh.. and "computational maths" (e.g Finite element method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has little to do with "computing" as the term is commonly understood.

Generally at usyd you need to complete the advanced courses to be eligible for honours.

+1 to your post though.

[Leeson]

I don't know much about software engineering or systems analyst but based off what I know about the financial industry, you're probably going to get more job security if you pursue a programming career than a financial one. Having said that, finance does pay incredibly well even compared to the six figure salaries rumored to exist in CS related professions (again, my knowledge of that area is hazy at best). Firstly, realize that the financial industry is very diversified, there is no staple finance job, although I suppose recently IB has been in the limelight. Investment banking jobs generally come in two types: traders and traditional bankers, separated within the firm by a Chinese wall. The traditional banker role (aka M&A), typically meant by people who say IB, requires substantial amounts of financial theory and know-how, but not much mathematical skills and even less computing skills aside from knowing how to work Excel and Word. Traders require a lot more mathematical prowess, fast mental arithmetic is a must and some basic applied maths helps, however you don't exactly need the depth and abstractness a math major confers onto you and definitely will not be needing any programming skills either. If fact, the only roles I can think of in an IB where you can actively apply mathematical and computing skills is in support, such as quant positions and risk management. While support offers a lot more job security and is much easier to enter into than trading or banking jobs, it does pay a lot less and often requires post-grad qualifications (PhD for a proper quant role). And finally, to the person who said that IB is the worse paying job per hour: Even working 70 hour weeks on average for 50 weeks a year, a $100,000 salary still averages ~$28/hr which, while not mind blowing, is not exactly the paramount of poverty either. Keep in mind that figure is pre-bonus and relates only to first year graduate analysts. Depending on how well you perform your salary can grow exponentially.

[Studentleader]

Originally Posted by Leeson

I don't know much about software engineering or systems analyst but based off what I know about the financial industry, you're probably going to get more job security if you pursue a programming career than a financial one. Having said that, finance does pay incredibly well even compared to the six figure salaries rumored to exist in CS related professions (again, my knowledge of that area is hazy at best). Firstly, realize that the financial industry is very diversified, there is no staple finance job, although I suppose recently IB has been in the limelight. Investment banking jobs generally come in two types: traders and traditional bankers, separated within the firm by a Chinese wall. The traditional banker role (aka M&A), typically meant by people who say IB, requires substantial amounts of financial theory and know-how, but not much mathematical skills and even less computing skills aside from knowing how to work Excel and Word. Traders require a lot more mathematical prowess, fast mental arithmetic is a must and some basic applied maths helps, however you don't exactly need the depth and abstractness a math major confers onto you and definitely will not be needing any programming skills either. If fact, the only roles I can think of in an IB where you can actively apply mathematical and computing skills is in support, such as quant positions and risk management. While support offers a lot more job security and is much easier to enter into than trading or banking jobs, it does pay a lot less and often requires post-grad qualifications (PhD for a proper quant role). And finally, to the person who said that IB is the worse paying job per hour: Even working 70 hour weeks on average for 50 weeks a year, a $100,000 salary still averages ~$28/hr which, while not mind blowing, is not exactly the paramount of poverty either. Keep in mind that figure is pre-bonus and relates only to first year graduate analysts. Depending on how well you perform your salary can grow exponentially.

Programming jobs get outsourced to India so you don't want to be a code monkey.

[Cookie182]

In reference to the discussion are you quantitative guys wanting "front-office" IB jobs?

Eg Studentleader what exact job do you want? As the guy above said, you barely need any deep mathematics to be an actual Investment Banker, I'd say it is more stamina and communication skills. So are you actually seeking support/risk modelling roles?

If not, from the advice I recieved, Comm (Finance)(Hons)/LL.B with many contacts and a sweet D-HD average is still the way into the trader/IB roles.

In fact, according to the knowledge of my current finance lecturer (ex IB'er for 30 yrs) it was only basic arithmetic in use (you get a summary of the figures, they are worked out by the quants in the back-office). He came from a tax law (CA) background and found that people who did the best had a deep knwoledge of financial markets and products, accounting statements, general business and marketing and tax legislation (domestic and abroad). IB's like lawyers due to their exposure to lots of paperwork, rules and regulations (and generally use to long hard work). The logical thinking skills (this can come from any background- accounting, law, engineering or maths) are just part of the package.

[RuffWoof]

So does the logical skills and knowledge of business attained from an undergrad accounting degree + CA qualification suffice for a trader/front office role in IB?

[velox]

Nope. Real traders have a maths background. CA is useless for a trader. As is accounting.

Front office roles want double degree or honours in relevant quantitative discipline:

engineering, maths, physics, finance, economics, comp sci etc.

Leeson: Quant is nowhere near support, quant is FO.

[Studentleader]

Originally Posted by Cookie182

Eg Studentleader what exact job do you want? As the guy above said, you barely need any deep mathematics to be an actual Investment Banker, I'd say it is more stamina and communication skills. So are you actually seeking support/risk modelling roles?

Risk modelling, high-freq trading, quant trading, venture capital, consulting or just a high-up role in research and development.

I'm reading Paul Wilmott's books now which will tell me if quant finance is going to be interesting enough for me otherwise I'll be looking at cybernetic engineering.

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by velox

Nope. Real traders have a maths background. CA is useless for a trader. As is accounting.

Front office roles want double degree or honours in relevant quantitative discipline:

engineering, maths, physics, finance, economics, comp sci etc.

Leeson: Quant is nowhere near support, quant is FO.

I guess my post was referencing more the "traditional banker" (M&A) roles that most people think of as being an IB'er. Just from people I have asked, none of them had a strong maths background nor used any complicated maths on the job- it was all law, financial regulations and statements, macroeconomics (understanding FX markets and Interest Rates), constant travelling/meetings/communications/marketing and tax knowledge.

I guess the role I am speaking about here would be aiding a large firm in project finance, advising on a share underwriting, assessing operational and financial risks, portfolio diversification, asset management, financial restructuring, organising swaps, M&A advice etc

Obviously all requires strong legal and accounting/finance knowledge. A lecturer I had who worked for a large US IB in the 80's told me about his times going on underwriting "road trips", meeting with potential investors and working out the optimal IPO prices.

* Note I'm not saying maths wouldn't be useful, I'm just questioning whether it is important that you can derive the Black-Scholes model in order to be successful in these roles. I'm thinking it would be more pertinent to understand the tax implications of undertaking ADR investments or the credit rating requirements to participate in international capital markets.

[Cookie182]

Question, on the trading side of things, do you mean specific math knowledge or the high-level logical thinking skills that come with a maths degree>

I asked a previous trader what background the best colleague he ever worked with came from...

with little surprise his answer was a BA (hons) Oxford graduate who specialised in 18th century German philosophy.

he said he just "got trading" at an intuitive level.

[Studentleader]

Originally Posted by Cookie182

Question, on the trading side of things, do you mean specific math knowledge or the high-level logical thinking skills that come with a maths degree>

I asked a previous trader what background the best colleague he ever worked with came from...

with little surprise his answer was a BA (hons) Oxford graduate who specialised in 18th century German philosophy.

he said he just "got trading" at an intuitive level.

Depends on what 'type' of trading you do.

Firms hire people who are quick thinking and analytical - one of my IB resume books has a resume from someone with BA Hons(English) who is trying to get into IB. That being said people from a strong mathematical background are still prefered in those roles (as you can see on Optiver ads.) Over the years firms have experimented alot with traders - they have even tried hiring chess masters for their decision making skills!

There is trading with options and such which you'll need high-end mathematics though.

This book on stochastic processes I'm reading is so dry ><"

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by Studentleader

Depends on what 'type' of trading you do.

Firms hire people who are quick thinking and analytical - one of my IB resume books has a resume from someone with BA Hons(English) who is trying to get into IB. That being said people from a strong mathematical background are still prefered in those roles (as you can see on Optiver ads.) Over the years firms have experimented alot with traders - they have even tried hiring chess masters for their decision making skills!

There is trading with options and such which you'll need high-end mathematics though.

This book on stochastic processes I'm reading is so dry ><"

I'm sure it is dry lol

Yeah thats what I figured.

I admit I'm naive in understanding this complex trading world, it seems very politicised.

On that though, I remember mentioning say Optiver to Velox on here once before and he said it wasn't considered a "full trader" job they are more market makers...

I met with the Optiver guys @ the careers fair and they were pretty interested to have a chat. I asked one of the traders who was currently working there (its purely options) and he said you dont even need calculus (I mentioned I might take up some math units). He said you need quick mental arithmetic and to intuitively understand how derivatives work...

Eg- The factors influencing calls and put prices and strategies (and very quickly). That is, lets do a bullish money spread here or I percieve a lot of volatility on this asset lets go for a straddle etc etc

On the spot he got me to do a bit of maths in my head (lucky I got it right) just basic percentages of how much he would make off a trade of so many contracts @ x prices...

He said law, finance, maths, engineering, economics, philsophy are all acceptable...its about the skills.

Having said that, as I'm interested in a more "people focused" job (communications skills etc) he recommended say the wholesale division where you actually have meetings with clients etc

Here you need more written + communication skills.

[Cookie182]

He was also 22 yrs old, had a BCommerce (economics + finance), was on 100k a year, working decent hours and living at home lol.

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by Studentleader

Risk modelling, high-freq trading, quant trading, venture capital, consulting or just a high-up role in research and development.

I'm reading Paul Wilmott's books now which will tell me if quant finance is going to be interesting enough for me otherwise I'll be looking at cybernetic engineering.

Sounds more like you should become an actuary to me. Thats where you will use this stuff.

[Studentleader]

Originally Posted by Cookie182

Sounds more like you should become an actuary to me. Thats where you will use this stuff.

I'll be happy doing high frequency stuff I think - I still have alot to learn about quantitative finance. I figure I'll be working in finance, nuclear physics, logistics or military (which my girlfriend and mum don't like.)

Wouldn't mind designing an anti-asylum seeker missile network - I know my uncle was a consultant for the Australian army and now lectures mathematical battle strategics at ANU.

Cybernetics contains every topic I'm interested in so being a cybernetic engineer would be very nice.