Man to be 'crucified' for raping 5 children

[Cookie182]

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Originally Posted by HumanDichotomy

No. Beheading is barbaric. We're just sinking to the level of the criminal, imo.

Absolutely, these threads really give a chance for everone to go "kill him bla bla". It's quite frightening this bloodthirsty, animalistic drive still exists within our fellow "civilised" Australians.

Note too, call me a skeptic but I will never rush to judgement based on criminal facts in Saudi Arabia.

1) I don't find their legal system legitimate. It very much runs on a "make it up as you go" policy; precedents are inconsistent (if at any at all) and corrpution will always exist IMO under a monarchy with "religious police".
2) I reject the notion of legal codes derived through "divine revelation". Sharia law makes no sense to an atheist.

[Ben.Civiletti]

cookie, thats what you are made to believe about the Saudi legal system by the Australian and international tabloid media. It isn't as primitive as you are led to believe. It just feels a bit iffy cos they have such stiff and 'primitive' punishments. Also in the West, the Sharia law principles used, also feels primitive. But as a legal system it isn't soo primitive.

Dude the kid was raped then left to 'melt' in the desert. Now, how can that be questioned? Well, yes, someone else could have done it, he may be mentally disabled yes, but would you rather let him serve his time for 5 years or 10 years in a prison with foxtel like we do here? Fairly sure the Saudi's laugh at our treatment of pedos like Furgy.

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by Ben.Civiletti

wtf bro? does the little 3 year old deserve to get raped and then die from thirst and starvation and heat in the Saudi desert? Does he?

BBJ, this is one such example, where the KSA's 'barbaric' judicial system is not so. This pig should be crucified first for a day, then beheaded. No wait, crucified, then limbs cut of one by one, then beheaded. He deserves it. For each one of those poor victims he shall have his limbs cutoff then left for few hours then beheaded.

I know it sounds very barbaric but ffs he deserves it. Can you imagine that poor soul being raped and then left to die in the desert. Just sickens me

This is a chilling and disgusting post that reeks of a cry for retributive justice: a cry out for anarchy & unrelenting violence IMO.

The focus of our justice system, as should always be, is rehabilitation in the small hope that the offender can one day reunite safely with the community. If the offender indeed suffers from a psychiatric illness, this needs to be accounted for and it is the states responsibility (not that it always does it well, different issue) to provide services for them.

Beyond the deprivation of liberty as punishment, if the offender still presents a significant risk to the community, they shall not be released (perhaps for the term of their natural life). This is the level of punishment we should always offer; it is the only solution for a civilised society and it is what we should pride ourselves upon, separating us from Saudi et al.

The facts of the case are wildly unknown. How can you put such faith in the Saudi criminal code? AI has already suggested that wider issues of mental health may be at play? Do you have any regard for mens rea?

Now, given that he was in good health and did commit such heinous crimes, you are invited to bring in your moral judgement, and it is disgusting. Should we then go torture him before mangling his corpse>...No, this gives little chance for rehabilitation and only incites mob fuelled community violence. We deprive him off his liberty for good, keep the community safe and uphold "civilisation".

[eldore44]

If you're going to have a death penalty you need to make it actually deter people. lethal injection doesnt, this does. crucifixion ftw.

[David Spade]

what are your sources?

i would be interested to read a study that shows that the threat of lethal injection does not deter people from comitting crimes but the threat of crucifixion does

think before you say something so ridiculous and unfounded again

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by Ben.Civiletti

cookie, thats what you are made to believe about the Saudi legal system by the Australian and international tabloid media. It isn't as primitive as you are led to believe. It just feels a bit iffy cos they have such stiff and 'primitive' punishments. Also in the West, the Sharia law principles used, also feels primitive. But as a legal system it isn't soo primitive.

Dude the kid was raped then left to 'melt' in the desert. Now, how can that be questioned? Well, yes, someone else could have done it, he may be mentally disabled yes, but would you rather let him serve his time for 5 years or 10 years in a prison with foxtel like we do here? Fairly sure the Saudi's laugh at our treatment of pedos like Furgy.

At its core, it is based on the divine revelation of Mohammed, nothing less said.

It is inately primitive.

You have no idea where I recieved my knowledge on Saudi arabia from, your just using the stereotypical "your not from there, your listening to Western lies" apologetics. Please, my dear woman, have more sense. I am fervently critical of "western tabloids".

If you have a son and he becomes a pedophile, will your envisaged treatment of them change? Do note, as disgusting as pedophilia is, should we separate it from those suffering from schitzophrenia who murder someone due to dellusions? You get wrapped up in the medias "moral condemnation" of Ferguson, yet it may well be an unavoidable mental health issue. Rather then shifting the focus to phsyical torture, lets be constructive and increase the psychological research into the area bringing us closer to whether rehabilitation is indeed possible (or even "cures"). If not, then for the protection of children, these people must be deprived of their liberty for the course of their natural life, no more though: it is unwarranted and backwards.

LOL @ foxtel, our culture has an ingrain disgust (even among prisoners) against child sex offenders, given ferguson did 14 yrs (not a day less) you can only imagine the treatment of him: constant bashings, taunting, perhaps torture from other indivudals?

Is this the kind of "eye for an eye" culture you wish to create?

I really don't think you have thought deeply about your position at all.

[Cookie182]

Note also the hypocrisy.

As an obvious Middle Easterner you love to run with the "don't trust the Western media" when convenient and then you quote the facts presented by that same media, ie the child "melting in the desert" to me?

[Ben.Civiletti]

Originally Posted by Cookie182

The focus of our justice system, as should always be, is rehabilitation in the small hope that the offender can one day reunite safely with the community. If the offender indeed suffers from a psychiatric illness, this needs to be accounted for and it is the states responsibility (not that it always does it well, different issue) to provide services for them.

The facts of the case are wildly unknown. How can you put such faith in the Saudi criminal code? AI has already suggested that wider issues of mental health may be at play? Do you have any regard for mens rea?

Can those three individuals that were raped and killed, lets focus on the child that was left to die in the desert, be rehabilitated in the small hope that he/she be reunited safely with his/her parents? I don't think so. So why give such liberties to such horrible individuals? I agree that all measures should be taken to rehabilitate individuals who have committed crimes such as: robbery, vandalism, assault not occasioning fatal injuries... because the victims of these crimes can also be rehabilitated to an extent where they too can function 'normally'. But when a child or adult is raped then killed off in such a horrific manner, then the instigator must be dealt with!

Also the facts of the case is unknown to YOU. Do you think the prosecutors the lawyers the judges are unbeknown to the facts? I don't think so. You have this warped notion that all Saudi's all arabs all muslims are untrustworthy filth that have the most primitive of judicial systems and cannot deal in a logical judicial process. This is what is fed to you by the media trash that exists in Western Countries. just look at Fox news, the telegraph etc just utter trash... they feed on your distrust of foreigners - particularly this neo-hate of Muslimes. I agree their punishments are primitive but I don't agree in this sort of case.

And no I'm not a muslim.
EDIT: no I'm not a middle easterner either. I'm just distrusting of the trash that is fed to us. Its almost presented in the news in a way to mock arabs...

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by Ben.Civiletti

Can those three individuals that were raped and killed, lets focus on the child that was left to die in the desert, be rehabilitated in the small hope that he/she be reunited safely with his/her parents? I don't think so. So why give such liberties to such horrible individuals? I agree that all measures should be taken to rehabilitate individuals who have committed crimes such as: robbery, vandalism, assault not occasioning fatal injuries... because the victims of these crimes can also be rehabilitated to an extent where they too can function 'normally'. But when a child or adult is raped then killed off in such a horrific manner, then the instigator must be dealt with!

Also the facts of the case is unknown to YOU. Do you think the prosecutors the lawyers the judges are unbeknown to the facts? I don't think so. You have this warped notion that all Saudi's all arabs all muslims are untrustworthy filth that have the most primitive of judicial systems and cannot deal in a logical judicial process. This is what is fed to you by the media trash that exists in Western Countries. just look at Fox news, the telegraph etc just utter trash... they feed on your distrust of foreigners - particularly this neo-hate of Muslimes. I agree their punishments are primitive but I don't agree in this sort of case.

And no I'm not a muslim.
EDIT: no I'm not a middle easterner either. I'm just distrusting of the trash that is fed to us. Its almost presented in the news in a way to mock arabs...

1) Talking about "rehabilitation" in terms of victims is non-sensical. My argument is, irrespective of the crime (or what happened to the victims) in ANY case, we do not need to resort to primitive "pain inflictive" torture in our justice system, the sort of torture that you described above. Nor do we have to kill the offender. Period.

You seem to be promoting a warped understanding of the "just deserts" theory, something I wholeheartedly reject. I don't like backward looking punishments; eg: what did they do, how bad was it, lets impose punishment X which is roughly equal. As I said, I think forward looking is the only sane solution, irrespective of the difficulties/costs that can arise (I accept rehabilitation is not always effective).

2) Your putting words in my mouth. That is far from my opinion on Saudi, you would have no idea of the sources that I have formed my opinions from. Note too, your skepticism of "our media" is embarrassing given that your clearly basing your opinons regarding the case on the very story written by our media. It sounds like you buy into conspiracy theory rubbish.

Remember, we are discussing a nation which has no freedom of consciousness. This isn't about a racial fuelled hatred of Arabs, I know many and respect many in my life. They all agree. It is a totalitarian state; its official policies are racist, bigotted, sexist and inherently primitive. It represents the very exampe of the disaster that occurs when religion is mixed with state, when "moral laws" simply become an excuse for state control and are openly left to "religious interpretation." A state where there are no liberal movements, no freedom to express your opinion, to openly play music in public, to socialise and meet the opposite sex, to have a "private life", to openly practice your religion in a public sphere. The state that still instills corporal punishments like lashings based on strict interpretations of supposed word of god: revealed by none other then a warlord who wandered the desert 1500 yrs ago and meditated in a cave.

It reads like a paragraph from 1984...

But yeah, the Western media has lied to me, its a fucking paradise.

[Cookie182]

Sharia law is not logical.

It begins with the first proposition:

"Assume the islamic god exists..."

Edit: As a secularist & humanist, my actual theological position is irrelevant. I think that all Australians, irrespective of thier religion should reject such a concept. I am outrightly sickened by the "moral relativism" that we constantly face:

"Oh you can NEVER understand the middle east because your lied to by the media",
"or the original texts in Arabic have been changed when they are in english",
"we can't judge their culture, they are 400 yrs behind Christianity blah blah"

Are these sayings sounding familar people? They are alll rubbish apologetics, interwined with conspiracy BS, defending a depravating legal system.

Sharia law is an inherently violent, oppressive mind-regime that is sneaking into the backdoor of western politics while "soft-liners" and even Christian leaders alike (who are worried about "multi-faith dialogue) allow it to occur (look at Britian, several parts of Europe now allowing sharia civil courts). It is incompatible with democracy, it is incompatible with freedom and incompatible with this century.

I submit to you, go over to the Middle East and expect the same "relativism", the same acceptance of your own cultural/religious practices: it doesn't exist. There is a dangerous double standard here people.

Ironically people go "oh your anti-muslim/racist", no, in fact it is the secularist who is the only person DEFENDING their right to freedom of practice, privacy and ultimately consciousness.

[Cookie182]

Here is a group of Muslims who are at least accepting the need for worldwide reform. Note, as much I support their mission, they will struggle to ever get anywhere. "Moderates" struggle to really have any voice in the M.E., they are really just as much of a target of terroism as are non-muslims.

OUR GOALS
to educate Muslims about dangers presented by Islamic religious texts and why Islam must be reformed
to educate non-Muslims about the differences between moderate Muslims and Islamists (a.k.a. Islamic Religious Fanatics, Radical Muslims, Muslim Fundamentalists, Islamic Extremists or Islamofascists)
to educate both Muslims and non-Muslims alike that Moderate Muslims are also targets of Islamic Terror



OUR MANIFESTO
Acknowledging mistakes
The majority of the terrorist acts of the last three decades, including the 9/11 attacks, were perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists in the name of Islam. We, as Muslims, find it abhorrent that Islam is used to murder millions of innocent people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Inconsistencies in the Koran
Unfortunately, Islamic religious texts, including the Koran and the Hadith contain many passages, which call for Islamic domination and incite violence against non-Muslims. It is time to change that. Muslim fundamentalists believe that the Koran is the literal word of Allah. But could Allah, the most Merciful, the most Compassionate, command mass slaughter of people whose only fault is being non-Muslim?

The Koran & the Bible
Many Bible figures from Adam to Jesus (Isa) are considered to be prophets and are respected by Islam. Islamic scholars however believe that both the Old and the New Testament came from God, but that they were corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time. Could it be possible that the Koran itself was corrupted by Muslims over the last thirteen centuries?

The need for reform
Islam, in its present form, is not compatible with principles of freedom and democracy. Twenty-first century Muslims have two options: we can continue the barbaric policies of the seventh century perpetuated by Hassan al-Banna, Abdullah Azzam, Yassir Arafat, Ruhollah Khomeini, Osama bin Laden, Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, Hizballah, Hamas, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, etc., leading to a global war between Dar al-Islam (Islamic World) and Dar al-Harb (non-Islamic World), or we can reform Islam to keep our rich cultural heritage and to cleanse our religion from the reviled relics of the past. We, as Muslims who desire to live in harmony with people of other religions, agnostics, and atheists choose the latter option. We can no longer allow Islamic extremists to use our religion as a weapon. We must protect future generations of Muslims from being brainwashed by the Islamic radicals. If we do not stop the spread of Islamic fundamentalism, our children will become homicidal zombies.

Accepting responsibilities
To start the healing process, we must acknowledge evils done by Muslims in the name of Islam and accept responsibility for those evils. We must remove evil passages from Islamic religious texts, so that future generations of Muslims will not be confused by conflicting messages. Our religious message should be loud and clear: Islam is peace; Islam is love; Islam is light. War, murder, violence, divisiveness & discrimination are not Islamic values.

Religious privacy
Religion is the private matter of every individual. Any person should be able to freely practice any religion as long as the practice does not interfere with the local laws, and no person must be forced to practice any religion. Just as people are created equal, there is no one religion that is superior to another. Any set of beliefs that is spread by force is fundamentally immoral; it is no longer a religion, but a political ideology.

Equality
Islam is one of the many of the world's religions. There will be no Peace and Harmony in the World if Muslims and non-Muslims do not have equal rights. Islamic supremacy doctrine is just as repulsive as Aryan supremacy doctrine. History clearly shows what happens to the society whose members consider themselves above other peoples. All moderate Muslims must repudiate the mere notion of Islamic supremacy.

Sharia
Sharia Law must be abolished, because it is incompatible with norms of modern society.

Outdated practices
Any practices that might have been acceptable in the Seventh Century; i.e., stoning, cutting off body parts, marrying and/or having sex with children or animals, must be condemned by every Muslim.

Outdated verses
The following verses promote divisiveness and religious hatred, bigotry and discrimination. They must be either removed from the Koran or declared outdated and invalid, and marked as such.

Outdated words & phrases
Use of the following words and phrases or their variations must be prohibited during religious services:
• Infidel / Unbeliever: these terms have negative connotation and promote divisiveness and animosity; Islam is not the only religion
• Jihad: this word is often interpreted as Holy War against non-Muslims
• Mujaheed / Holy Warrior: no more wars in the name of Islam
• American (Christian / Crusader / Israeli / Zionist) occupation: these terms promote bigotry; at this point in time, Muslims living in non-Muslim lands have more freedoms than Muslims living in Muslim lands

Islam vs. violence
Islam has no place for violence. Any person calling for an act of violence in the name of Islam must be promptly excommunicated. Any grievances must be addressed by lawful authorities. It is the religious and civic duty of every Muslim to unconditionally condemn any act of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. Any Muslim group that has ties to terrorism in any way, shape, or form, must be universally condemned by both religious and secular Muslims.

Portrayal of Prophets
While portrayal of Prophets is not an acceptable practice in Islam could be personally offensive to some Muslims, other religions do not have such restrictions. Therefore, the portrayal of the Prophets must be treated as a manifestation of free expression.

The Crusades vs. The Inquisition
While the Inquisition was a repulsive practice by Christian Fundamentalists, the Crusades were not unprovoked acts of aggression, but rather attempts to recapture formerly Christian lands controlled by Muslims.

I'm calling all muslims [Aussie muslims] to read it and say, yes we agree.

If you don't, please leave this country.

Muslims Against Sharia

Edit: Many Christians also need to have a long, hard think and write up a similar credo.

[4theHSC]

Originally Posted by Cookie182

Here is a group of Muslims who are at least accepting the need for worldwide reform. Note, as much I support their mission, they will struggle to ever get anywhere. "Moderates" struggle to really have any voice in the M.E., they are really just as much of a target of terroism as are non-muslims.



I'm calling all muslims [Aussie muslims] to read it and say, yes we agree.

If you don't, please leave this country.

Muslims Against Sharia

Edit: Many Christians also need to have a long, hard think and write up a similar credo.

Firstly your way off topic, secondly your turning this to another 'hate islam' thread and thirdly you don't even know what your talking about.

The man should be killed... Raped 5 children and left them for dead? beheading is thought to be a very fast way of dying anyway

[Cookie182]

Originally Posted by 4theHSC

Firstly your way off topic, secondly your turning this to another 'hate islam' thread and thirdly you don't even know what your talking about.

The man should be killed... Raped 5 children and left them for dead? beheading is thought to be a very fast way of dying anyway

Please do yourself the service of deleting this post.

To turn around and say I'm making a "hate Islam" thread simply shows you have not read at all what I posted and further amplifies my point that the mainstream Australian response to any criticism of Islam is "shut up you can't say that."

Why should he be killed? Are you satisfied of the facts, of the quality of their legal system and procedures? Are you satisfied in regards to the possible state of his mental health?

The honest answer to these questions should be no. Until then, please shut the fuck up.

[Cookie182]

Also the word "hate" is completely stupid in the context of a philosophy (religion is a philosophy).

Do you "hate" utilitarinism, Kantian ethics?

I think all religions are fundamentally wrong, self-contradictory and erroneous.

If I had to use the word "hate", I would use it as an expression of my disappointment that such ideologies are so widespread and respected in todays context. I generally view most religious adherents as being constrained from reaching their full intellectual potential, particularly the majority who are never taught to question anything and blindly accept dogma.

So if you must use the word, I admit that I hate Islam as much as I hate Christianity or any other religious system. This says nothing about my respect for the actual followers as people nor their right to practice it, which I fully defend.

[4theHSC]

Originally Posted by Cookie182

Please do yourself the service of deleting this post.

To turn around and say I'm making a "hate Islam" thread simply shows you have not read at all what I posted and further amplifies my point that the mainstream Australian response to any criticism of Islam is "shut up you can't say that."

Why should he be killed? Are you satisfied of the facts, of the quality of their legal system and procedures? Are you satisfied in regards to the possible state of his mental health?

The honest answer to these questions should be no. Until then, please shut the fuck up.

Firstly I don't think implementing aspects of the saudi law should be implemented due to the different context and time, and I did read your posts and they mainly allure to the 'islam and violence' and 'lack of democracy and freedom' etc...

Secondly, it is none of our business how they precede with their legal systems, he raped 5 children and left them for dead, he should die, period.