Is Information Technology and Computer Science deteriorating?

[poloktim]

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By now we'd all be aware of the split of the School of Information Technology and Computer Science to become the School of Computer Science and Software Engineering (SCSSE) and the School of Information Systems and Technology (SISAT). This split represented the major differences between the disciplines and the students studying these disciplines.

Also, previously we've discussed poor lecturing staff at UoW, and while that thread is the place to bitch about horrible lecturers/tutors, one can't help but think that they can't take the whole blame for a problem that seems to have developed in SCSSE/SISAT: students who know virtually nothing.

Students have been taking subjects that have been dumbed down from what they once were. They continue on after passing to take subjects for which they're not equipped to handle. They've spent their time at uni only completing the minimum work required and many many computing students have no clue about the industry outside of uni. As mentioned before, lecturers can't bear the blame wholly for this problem. University is about taking the initiative for yourself. What good are we if we rely on the subjects we're taught at uni? At the end of first year uni now students are taught C++ up until classes - but not classes. Why teach C++ in first year if you're going to use it as if it is C?

Students find problems with simple exercises in laboratories, tutorials and assignments. I also am really surprised when I find students past their first semester at uni have never played with Linux - even on a virtual machine.

I suppose I'm ranting because I always saw uni as a place to learn, a place where students were required to pick up things that had relevance to their studies/chosen industry, even if they weren't explicitly taught that in class. A place where further reading/testing/research into an area by a student was something that was commonplace, to give that student a broader understanding of his/her chosen study field and ultimately his/her chosen profession.

A common response to this is "oh, but that's more of a CSCI thing, and I'm studying IACT." That is no excuse. This year I have had the fortune of job hunting, and while many jobs that were aimed at IT graduates had lots of requirements for things studied in IACT subjects, there was still a requirement that the individual know how to run an Exchange Server or how to configure sendmail on OpenBSD or on Solaris or on Debian. Employees are still required to configure routers/networks and systems of all architectures and operating systems. Plenty of IT professional jobs (as compared to Computer Science) require students to have a good understanding of programming - something it seems increasingly that students don't have a grasp of, especially IACT students.

On the other side of the SITACS split, we have a group of CSCI students. Students who spend the minimum amount of time required on their subjects. They seem more interested in having a beer at the unibar, or daily going drinking at the cost of their studies. Students who meet less than the minimum recommended amount of hours in study - who really shouldn't because from the impression that I get, many of these students have absolutely no interest in the field. They seem to think that the words BCompSc next to their name will guarantee them a job. In many cases it does, but if you're not interested and you're a dropkick, you'll be sacked before probation ends.

Sometimes I think students choose IACT/CSCI because they've got no clue what they want to study, no real interest in computers, and just want to go to uni. Others start it as a transfer point between that and something else like Law.

I spent this rant placing a lot of blame on students, but the uni does deserve some of the blame. To meet the demand of dropkick students, the curriculum has been reformed - it's much easier than it should be and still large numbers of students fail.

If that was too long and you couldn't be bothered reading it please take note down here:
STUDENTS: Don't assume you'll learn everything you need to know for each subject at uni. University is about self learning, pick up the pace, experiment with technologies, break things and learn from it.
IF YOU'RE NOT PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN COMPUTER SCIENCE OR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY THEN DROP OUT. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
STAFF: DON'T ATTEMPT TO APPEASE THE STUDENTS STRUGGLING WITH MAKING THE SUBJECT EASIER. APPEASE THEM BY OFFERING HELP IN THE FORM OF ONLINE TUTORIALS AND EXTRA EXERCISES THEY CAN DO AT HOME.
BY DROPPING THE STANDARDS OF YOUR SUBJECTS, YOU'RE DROPPING THE STANDARDS OF THE DEGREE, THUS DEVALUING IT FOR YOURSELVES. WOLLONGONG IS A FIVE STAR INSTITUTION, KEEP IT THAT WAY.

[Captain Gh3y]

It's the same in every other subject at every other university

[Kebabci Oglu]

unis these days are taking large intakes, so its not just IT or comp sci that has only has students wasting there time. But ye ur right there are heaps of students doing computer stuff with no interest, maybe the uni should start picking actual students instead of just thinking of making more money. Taking large intakes really kills the reputation of a course especially those of who which dont earn the spot.

[Josie]

Originally Posted by Captain Gh3y

It's the same in every other subject at every other university

That's what I was going to say.


I was horrified that in my English class last semester I was the only person who read for pleasure.
In history, at the end of a course named after the Cold War, someone put their hand up and said "But I thought Russia was still the Soviet Union. Didn't they win the war?"

Larger intakes, lax teaching, uncaring students- always have been and always will be.

[Captain Gh3y]

Originally Posted by Kebabci Oglu

umaybe the uni should start picking actual students instead of just thinking of making more money. Taking large intakes really kills the reputation of a course especially those of who which dont earn the spot.

It's not the unis' fault, it's the Government's fault for corporatising them

[ogmzergrush]

I re-read this again this morning, and I'm glad I'm not the only person who appears to think you're pissing in the wind. I think what it boils down to for me, after thinking about this some more, is that uni has a lot less to do with learning than you'd think, and a lot more to do with attracting and catering for the lowest common denominators willing to pay for it.

As long as providing this quality of education continues to be a popular (profitable) endeavour, I don't really see it as likely to change, and why would it? There is little I've seen so far to suggest that maintaining excellence is a higher priority for them than making money (but *some* things which would seem to suggest the opposite?).

I also think that the irrelevance of learning in this process is probably reflected in the attitudes of the people you complain about - being at uni doesn't actually indicate any interest in, or commitment to, learning new things. People recognise that showing up for four years and paying for the daycare will earn them qualifications, which are disturbingly similar to those which will be received by students who work hard. If the university is happy to sell them a degree with that mindset and lack of effort, why should they not show up to take advantage of that?

Regarding devaluing the degree? Perhaps it's more a matter of reflecting its true value. If people like that can, and have previously, passed through the degree successfully, you've got to wonder whether it's ever actually been the beacon of enlightenment that your discussion conjures up. Maybe you're getting it mixed up with ancient Greece?

Plenty of room for improvement, but not much potential.

[Captain Gh3y]

As more people get the qualifications they become worthless anyway since they cease to be a guarantee that the qualification holder actually knows anything about the particular subject

[ogmzergrush]

Looking at some of the people in my classes, it's hard to imagine that they ever did signify some level of ability

[Josie]

Originally Posted by ogmzergrush

Looking at some of the people in my classes, it's hard to imagine that they ever did signify some level of ability

Speaking of which, I just had my history tute, and

OMFG MOUTHBREATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tulipa]

Originally Posted by Josie

Speaking of which, I just had my history tute, and

OMFG MOUTHBREATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which history class?

[Josie]

HIST107

And I have Kon again! Yay!!

[poloktim]

Though seeing these dropkicks who essentially pay for daycare, and seeing the university dumbing down their degrees to cater for more of these dropkicks... doesn't it annoy you?

As ogmzergrush mentioned, there are those who do all the work, pay the same, and still get the same piece of paper at the end as those who do sweet fuck all.

You have graduates leaving uni with qualifications when they have no clue what the fuck they're doing. Doesn't this make you mad? Or am I just overreacting?

[ogmzergrush]

I don't particularly enjoy though the thought, but then I'm not under the misapprehension that my degree means anything much aside from a large debt. I would probably be annoyed if I had expectations left though.

Why am I doing it if I think this? Wasted too many years already, might as well get my piece of paper.

[DooGseY]

Originally Posted by ogmzergrush

Why am I doing it if I think this? Wasted too many years already, might as well get my piece of paper.

Pretty much my sentiment exactly. In my lab today there was someone who had presumably done 4 semesters of a computer science degree (this was csci222) and didn't realise to compile a program that you need to tell the compiler the correct file name to use.

Unfortunately the uni is fighting a losing battle when it comes to anything IT related. The bubble burst over half a decade ago and the enrollments have slowly dwindled down to next to nothing. People are leaving because degrees take too much effort, so the SCSSE and SISAT schools need to justify their existence by bumping up the numbers as best they can. This results in a number of vege subjects particularly in the first 2 years.

I'd blame the industry more than anything though. I think the uni does a decent job given they're trying to meet student and industry expectations as best they can. The good news is, the industry will sort out the quality grads from the not-so quality grads in time. The bad news is, in my opinion, a uni degree in IT/CS is not needed for the majority of CS careers if you're someone who is actually interested in this sort of stuff.

[Josie]

Originally Posted by poloktim

Though seeing these dropkicks who essentially pay for daycare, and seeing the university dumbing down their degrees to cater for more of these dropkicks... doesn't it annoy you?

As ogmzergrush mentioned, there are those who do all the work, pay the same, and still get the same piece of paper at the end as those who do sweet fuck all.

You have graduates leaving uni with qualifications when they have no clue what the fuck they're doing. Doesn't this make you mad? Or am I just overreacting?

It'd worry me, except most of the universe doesn't value an Arts degree anyway, so in my case that's not relevant.

On a personal level, yeah, it does. But I'm also sure there's always been kids at uni who are only there cause mummy and daddy make them go, just like there will always be the small group of people who are actually there to learn.