The right to bear arms

[Annihilist]

I guess its pretty hard to answer that question because I highly doubt any of us have actually *seriously* gotten close to murdering someone

This is true. We are really only speaking in hypothetical, theoretical and philosophical terms.

[boris]

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/societ...417-1x5jh.html

this is sickening

[boris]

and to answer her question
yes
we need more semi-automatic pistols in australia
and concealed carry laws

[funkshen]

if you keep your gun in your handbag, how are you going to stop someone stealing your handbag?

[CO7]

I personally think that 'the right to bear arms' is a bad idea. Although it's a great method for self defense, it brings too much risk and danger.. people should look at alternative methods such as martial arts, only the authority or the police should be able to bear arms.

[Phoenix Fury]

I personally think that 'the right to bear arms' is a bad idea. Although it's a great method for self defense, it brings too much risk and danger.. people should look at alternative methods such as martial arts, only the authority or the police should be able to bear arms.

And what when people need to rise up against an injust and oppressive authority? Martial arts is useless against arms.

Why do the needs of the authority take precedence over the needs of the population?

[ZombieApocalypse]

And what when people need to rise up against an injust and oppressive authority? Martial arts is useless against arms.

Why do the needs of the authority take precedence over the needs of the population?

If you think about it, when does 'the authority' use arms? When fighting our battles for us, which is why we call the police when a deranged mad man tries breaking into our house, or when fighting in wars. And you may argue that if we had arms, we could defend ourself, but there are so many fucking sick people out there, and so many bad people who would exploit firearms.
You'd have more problems. Look at the problem in america. They regulate firearms over there, and there are so many gun related problems.

I'm not doubting that some in the military, or the police misuse their power, but the other 99% of those able to use firearms with authority, probably do so properly.

In the context of Australia, do we live in a country which is unjust, with an oppressive and authoritarian government? If not, why do we need arms?
You may say, incase we need it in the future, but cmon man.

Keeping weapons ~inkace da gubbermentz gehtz to muhch p0wa n controlz dah pplz~ is way too paranoid. It's like having a basement full of food supplies incase aliens decide to attack earth.

[CO7]

And what when people need to rise up against an injust and oppressive authority? Martial arts is useless against arms.

Why do the needs of the authority take precedence over the needs of the population?

The chances of an oppressive authority is smaller than the chances of the crime rate increasing. The possession of guns will certainly encourage people to become criminals and will no doubt increase the amount of deaths due to crime. With the use of a gun, many more people can be killed with less effort.. just a pull of the trigger and one life can be gone. There are certain cases that prove this like the one where a maniac went on a massacre at a university campus or school. Sure, guns make it easier to overthrow an oppressive authority but what are the chances of having one? a slim chance like that compared to an almost certain chance of crime rate increasing, is it really worth it?

Of course martial arts is useless against arms. You're talking about a rebellion in the modern times here, those type of things don't happen in developed countries often.. things that actually happen or are significantly more common should be focused like domestic crime. Let's be realistic here, what are the chances of the Australian government becoming an oppressive authority? or even the British, American, etc.

EDIT: Agree with above.

[ZombieApocalypse]

hey guys, lets all buy firearms INCASE the government decides to go all Kim Jong-il on our ass, and INCASE people decide to attack us, even though crime rates are pretty damn low, just because they're available in other countries where there may actually be a genuine need to carry firearms due to instability and government unrest.

lets disregard the fact that there isn't any imminent danger in our normal day lives that would require us to walk around with a fucking weapon, because streets are relatively safe. We NEED a gun.

Who cares if gun related violence (which isn't much of a problem now because very few people have access to a gun) may rise, I WANT A GUN so I can defend myself from no immediate danger to my life, and incase my relatively stable government which is a democracy, decides to go all dictator on us.

[CO7]

hey guys, lets all buy firearms INCASE the government decides to go all Kim Jong-il on our ass, and INCASE people decide to attack us, even though crime rates are pretty damn low, just because they're available in other countries where there may actually be a genuine need to carry firearms due to instability and government unrest.

lets disregard the fact that there isn't any imminent danger in our normal day lives that would require us to walk around with a fucking weapon, because streets are relatively safe. We NEED a gun.

Who cares if gun related violence (which isn't much of a problem now because very few people have access to a gun) may rise, I WANT A GUN so I can defend myself from no immediate danger to my life, and incase my relatively stable government which is a democracy, decides to go all dictator on us.

What country are you from?

We don't NEED a gun. Use alternatives, have you learnt martial arts for self-defense? INCASE the government becomes oppressive? the only ones who actually need them are ones who live in countries with an unstable government and developing countries. Sounds like you only want a gun because you think it's cool or something. Do you know how insecure people can become because of guns? The cons of guns far outweigh the pro which is what? 'the ability to overthrow or rebel against an oppressive authority'? May I remind you the chances of a government becoming an oppressive authority in developed countries like Australia, England, etc are extremely low?

[funkshen]

freedom haters

[SylviaB]

hey guys, lets all buy firearms INCASE the government decides to go all Kim Jong-il on our ass, and INCASE people decide to attack us, even though crime rates are pretty damn low, just because they're available in other countries where there may actually be a genuine need to carry firearms due to instability and government unrest.

lets disregard the fact that there isn't any imminent danger in our normal day lives that would require us to walk around with a fucking weapon, because streets are relatively safe. We NEED a gun.

Who cares if gun related violence (which isn't much of a problem now because very few people have access to a gun) may rise, I WANT A GUN so I can defend myself from no immediate danger to my life, and incase my relatively stable government which is a democracy, decides to go all dictator on us.

calm down

[Lentern]

Should a private citizen, say Clive Palmer, be able to purchase a nuclear weapon?

[SylviaB]

it is only a matter of time until the state won't realistically be able to stop him

[funkshen]

i don't see why clive palmer shouldn't be allowed to own a WMD of his choosing

[Galapagos]

Totally should have the right to bear arms. Armed robbery rates will go down for sure if the citizens of Australia embrace the law. Would you try and shoot up someone who COULD be holding a gun? Only if you're an idiot.

[Galapagos]

hey guys, lets all buy firearms INCASE the government decides to go all Kim Jong-il on our ass, and INCASE people decide to attack us, even though crime rates are pretty damn low, just because they're available in other countries where there may actually be a genuine need to carry firearms due to instability and government unrest.

lets disregard the fact that there isn't any imminent danger in our normal day lives that would require us to walk around with a fucking weapon, because streets are relatively safe. We NEED a gun.

Who cares if gun related violence (which isn't much of a problem now because very few people have access to a gun) may rise, I WANT A GUN so I can defend myself from no immediate danger to my life, and incase my relatively stable government which is a democracy, decides to go all dictator on us.

In my corner of Sydney drive-by shootings and stabbings have been increasing. It happens every week and yes, innocents get killed. The streets just aren't as safe as they should be.

[Phoenix Fury]

What country are you from?

We don't NEED a gun. Use alternatives, have you learnt martial arts for self-defense? INCASE the government becomes oppressive? the only ones who actually need them are ones who live in countries with an unstable government and developing countries. Sounds like you only want a gun because you think it's cool or something. Do you know how insecure people can become because of guns? The cons of guns far outweigh the pro which is what? 'the ability to overthrow or rebel against an oppressive authority'? May I remind you the chances of a government becoming an oppressive authority in developed countries like Australia, England, etc are extremely low?

What if you're elderly or crippled or otherwise unable to use martial arts, people should have the right to defend themselves and there arent always people around willing or able to lend a hand when someone is attacked. Guns are a way of equalising power between individuals regardless of their build/stature.
All goverments do is slowly erode the liberties of their people, at some point yeh I think it's certainly possible people might start to give a damn and want to protect them.

[Graney]

If you think about it, when does 'the authority' use arms? When fighting our battles for us, which is why we call the police when a deranged mad man tries breaking into our house, or when fighting in wars.

The police are the greatest threat to my personal health and security in our society. There is virtually no prospect of the police ever defending me, but a good prospect of them committing violence against me. I live under the constant threat of being imprisoned or killed by the police. I would like to be able to defend myself against them.

[Phoenix Fury]

If you think about it, when does 'the authority' use arms? When fighting our battles for us, which is why we call the police when a deranged mad man tries breaking into our house, or when fighting in wars. And you may argue that if we had arms, we could defend ourself, but there are so many fucking sick people out there, and so many bad people who would exploit firearms.
You'd have more problems. Look at the problem in america. They regulate firearms over there, and there are so many gun related problems.

I'm not doubting that some in the military, or the police misuse their power, but the other 99% of those able to use firearms with authority, probably do so properly.

In the context of Australia, do we live in a country which is unjust, with an oppressive and authoritarian government? If not, why do we need arms?
You may say, incase we need it in the future, but cmon man.

Keeping weapons ~inkace da gubbermentz gehtz to muhch p0wa n controlz dah pplz~ is way too paranoid. It's like having a basement full of food supplies incase aliens decide to attack earth.

There's been an absolute fuckton of shootings here the past few days, if criminals want guns they will get hold of them regardless of legality.
Making them more available just means that innocent people who wish to, have the ability to defend themselves should that need ever arise.

My only qualm with it is that, as you're saying, a wider availablity of guns is not compatible with society because people are fucking terrible. But should it be the people who dont want to hurt anyone, just merely have the ability to protect themselves and their family that should suffer because of them?

[Galapagos]

There's been an absolute fuckton of shootings here the past few days, if criminals want guns they will get hold of them regardless of legality.
Making them more available just means that innocent people who wish to, have the ability to defend themselves should that need ever arise.

Truth.

[ZombieApocalypse]

What country are you from?

We don't NEED a gun. Use alternatives, have you learnt martial arts for self-defense? INCASE the government becomes oppressive? the only ones who actually need them are ones who live in countries with an unstable government and developing countries. Sounds like you only want a gun because you think it's cool or something. Do you know how insecure people can become because of guns? The cons of guns far outweigh the pro which is what? 'the ability to overthrow or rebel against an oppressive authority'? May I remind you the chances of a government becoming an oppressive authority in developed countries like Australia, England, etc are extremely low?

It's called sarcasm.

calm down

I'm actually perfectly calm.

In my corner of Sydney drive-by shootings and stabbings have been increasing. It happens every week and yes, innocents get killed. The streets just aren't as safe as they should be.

lol, AND THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE STREETS SAFER IS TO ALLOW THE USE AND FREE DISTRIBUTION OF WEAPONS.

You're a genius.

The police are the greatest threat to my personal health and security in our society. There is virtually no prospect of the police ever defending me, but a good prospect of them committing violence against me. I live under the constant threat of being imprisoned or killed by the police. I would like to be able to defend myself against them.

You know that's not true.

If you're a threat to society, or break the law, you'll be incarcerated. If you resist arrest, obviously a means of subduing you and reasonable force should and will be applied. I concede that the police are far from perfect, and there are cases of police brutality, but chances of that in itself is low and there are consequences for officers who do abuse their power. Do you think threatening an officer with a gun, or shooting them, will calm to situation?

So, in your opinion, the law shouldn't be enforced because your own personal liberty is affected because of your choices? Someone who kidnaps someone and murders them has every right to defend them self against the police officer who wishes to arrest them and charge them of the crimes they committed?

There's been an absolute fuckton of shootings here the past few days, if criminals want guns they will get hold of them regardless of legality.
Making them more available just means that innocent people who wish to, have the ability to defend themselves should that need ever arise.

My only qualm with it is that, as you're saying, a wider availablity of guns is not compatible with society because people are fucking terrible. But should it be the people who dont want to hurt anyone, just merely have the ability to protect themselves and their family that should suffer because of them?

So how would you discern the intentions of people, and hence distribute these arms accordingly? You can't. And for that very reason, they shouldn't be allowed. How do we know who is innocent, and who is using it inappropriately?

Is the danger in our society warranting the need for arms? What are the chances of you needing to defend yourself in THIS society? You act as if these shootings are random.These shootings are targeted attacks against certain individuals who are involved in things they shouldn't be. In any society will there be problems, but how does allowing every man, child and dog to possess an incredibly dangerous weapon, regardless of their intentions, make society any more safe?

[powlmao]

[Graney]

You know that's not true.

I've been threatened by the police far more often than I've been threatened by anyone else. I commit many victimless crimes, I face potential persecution for them, it's a real and ever present threat, I frequently come in contact with the police who overtly state their objective is to cause me harm for my choice of recreation, if only they could catch me.

So, in your opinion, the law shouldn't be enforced because your own personal liberty is affected because of your choices?

The law is in many cases immoral, an immoral law shouldn't be enforced, and individuals are justified in resisting the enforcement of an immoral law by whatever means necessary.

Someone who kidnaps someone and murders them has every right to defend them self against the police officer who wishes to arrest them and charge them of the crimes they committed?

In that case the police would be morally justified obviously. That is a less common scenario than the police harassing people for victimless crimes.

[ZombieApocalypse]

I've been threatened by the police far more often than I've been threatened by anyone else. I commit many victimless crimes, I face potential persecution for them, it's a real and ever present threat, I frequently come in contact with the police who overtly state their objective is to cause me harm for my choice of recreation, if only they could catch me.

what do you mean by "threaten", and how would possessing a firearm solve your problem?

Your original offence, which you call a "victimless crime" would turn into a crime involving victims if you had a firearm. You'd either:
a) threaten the officer for doing their job and/or;
b) shoot the officer

both options have implications on not only yourself, but the police officer(s). They're people too. They're not above anyone at the end of the day, they experience the same pain and emotions as us. Just because they're enforcers of the law shouldn't make them targets.

The law is in many cases immoral, an immoral law shouldn't be enforced, and individuals are justified in resisting the enforcement of an immoral law by whatever means necessary.

That's subjective and irrelevant. What if someone thought laws against rape was immoral (because they're misogynistic or something). Does that mean is shouldn't be enforced against that individual?

ofc there are some stupid laws, but for the most part, i'd think most of them that'd warrant an arrest are justifiable.

In that case the police would be morally justified obviously. That is a less common scenario than the police harassing people for victimless crimes.

What you may see as a victimless crime isn't what others may see as a victimless crime. Some may argue drink driving is a victimless crime, but wouldn't you think the risk posed to everyone on roads makes everyone a potential victim?