Which Australian Prime Minister is better: Gough Whitlam or Julia Gillard?

[eschatos]

Why?

[Mdzabakly]

Dude, ...
Gough whitlam: * passed countless reforms
* was a revolutionary
*began the push for ab/ts islander land rights ( and own human rights)
* was taken down by liberal scum through a horrible loophole in the legislative system.
* brought in medicare

Julia gillard: * lied about her want to be leader, then brutally assasinated her pm.
* has brought the labor down in polls so far, that we may only aquire 30 seats at the most ( kim beazly)
* introduced a tax which she said she wouldnt ( im pro CT, however this isnt the way it should have came in)


you decide.

[townie]

Whitman > keating > gillard > Rudd > the rest

[soloooooo]

Rudd > Donkey > Gillard

If it was a poll between Gillard and a monkey, the monkey would win.

[Mdzabakly]

Whitman > keating > gillard > Rudd > the rest

uhmmm

Whitlam > keating> rudd> gillard

[Lentern]

uhmmm

Whitlam > keating> rudd> gillard

I dont get the Keating fetish among leftists, he was an economic rationalist through and through. My post Mcmahon Prime Ministers rank as Whitlam, Fraser, Rudd, Hawke, Keating, Gillard, Howard.

[Azure]

I dont get the Keating fetish among leftists, he was an economic rationalist through and through. My post Mcmahon Prime Ministers rank as Whitlam, Fraser, Rudd, Hawke, Keating, Gillard, Howard.

Not much love for old Johnny Howard eh?

[iSplicer]

John Howard all the way.

[Lentern]

Not much love for old Johnny Howard eh?

Children attempting suicide behind razor wire and he and his ministers strutted around wearing the fact like some sort of badge of honour, he can never redeem himself

[townie]

Not much love for old Johnny Howard eh?

One of the most shameful decades in our history IMHO

[townie]

I dont get the Keating fetish among leftists, he was an economic rationalist through and through. My post Mcmahon Prime Ministers rank as Whitlam, Fraser, Rudd, Hawke, Keating, Gillard, Howard.

I think the love for Keating is more about the man than the policies, you can't deny he was a character.

[Lentern]

I think the love for Keating is more about the man than the policies, you can't deny he was a character.

That may be true outside of the of the tent, but among Labor types he is enormously revered as some sort of "keeper of the leftie flame" more so than Gough, Hawke or Kevin combined it seems sometimes.

[townie]

That may be true outside of the of the tent, but among Labor types he is enormously revered as some sort of "keeper of the leftie flame" more so than Gough, Hawke or Kevin combined it seems sometimes.

I'd hardly call Kevin a leftie, left-leaning on some issues at best

[Lentern]

I'd hardly call Kevin a leftie, left-leaning on some issues at best

I'd say he's the leftest Prime Minister since Whitlam, enormous investment in education, great commitment to reconciliation, abolished temporary protection visas, pro China, pro multiculturalism, removed forty pieces of LBGT discriminatory legislation, supports carbon pricing, supports super profits tax, spearheaded communications infrastructure through the national broadband network. That he presents himself as a nerdy, moderate, mild chap shouldn't distract from his largely socialist agenda.

[townie]

I'd say he's the leftest Prime Minister since Whitlam, enormous investment in education, great commitment to reconciliation, abolished temporary protection visas, pro China, pro multiculturalism, removed forty pieces of LBGT discriminatory legislation, supports carbon pricing, supports super profits tax, spearheaded communications infrastructure through the national broadband network. That he presents himself as a nerdy, moderate, mild chap shouldn't distract from his largely socialist agenda.

Most of your points are things that are true of any labor PM and really don't define him as any more "leftie" than the rest - they merely define him as a labor politician.

He dropped carbon pricing as soon as it wasn't popular.

He didn't support same sex marriage (and anybody that doesn't can't claim to be a leftie).

And frankly a lot of what he did or didn't do was driven more by how they would play out politically rather than any genuine belief in them.

[Lentern]

Most of your points are things that are true of any labor PM and really don't define him as any more "leftie" than the rest - they merely define him as a labor politician.

He dropped carbon pricing as soon as it wasn't popular.

He didn't support same sex marriage (and anybody that doesn't can't claim to be a leftie).

And frankly a lot of what he did or didn't do was driven more by how they would play out politically rather than any genuine belief in them.

I disagree with a lot of that, Rudd's shelving of the ETS has well and truly been revealed as largely the doing of Gillard, Swan and Arbib now, it seems very clear that he wanted that policy implemented whereas she did not. Keating as PM voted down a bill introduced by Hewson to have an ETS and I think it's very clear were it not for the Greens Gillard would never have implemented a carbon price so I would say carbon pricing is not the normal stand point for Labor PM's.

Likewise Mark Latham, Kim Beazley and Julia Gillard all have supported smallish immigration intakes and offshore processing of asylum seekers, whilst Keating introduced mandatory detention. I would argue Rudd is the only PM since Fraser to move towards a more compassionate stance on refugees and asylum seekers.

No Labor leader living or otherwise has ever supported gay marriage, and it is rumoured Rudd will vote for it in the conscience vote.

I also reject that Rudd "played politics" more than other Labor Prime Ministers, except Whitlam of course. The most classic example of playing politics from a Labor PM must surely be Keating, who supported a value added tax, launching a smearing scare campaign against Hewson for promising to introduce just that.

[townie]

I disagree with a lot of that, Rudd's shelving of the ETS has well and truly been revealed as largely the doing of Gillard, Swan and Arbib now, it seems very clear that he wanted that policy implemented whereas she did not.

And if he truly believed in it he would have stuck to his guns. I also dispute your " well and truly" statement. Laurie Oaks is only one man with one source.

No Labor leader living or otherwise has ever supported gay marriage, and it is rumoured Rudd will vote for it in the conscience vote.

That doesn't change the fact he could have easily implemented it in government but publicly spoke against it. I'm also convinced that any vote in favour is only to gain the support of his colleagues rather than any genuine belief in it.

QUOTE=Lentern;5992897
I also reject that Rudd "played politics" more than other Labor Prime Ministers, except Whitlam of course. The most classic example of playing politics from a Labor PM must surely be Keating, who supported a value added tax, launching a smearing scare campaign against Hewson for promising to introduce just that.[/quote]

Rudd over promised and under delivered - apart from Fair Work (which any labor would do), immigration and NBN I can't think of any major reforms (not just throwing money at things) that he saw through to completion. Gillard on the other hand has at least actually delivered on reforms.

Rudd wasn't even part of the left faction.

[Lentern]

And if he truly believed in it he would have stuck to his guns. I also dispute your " well and truly" statement. Laurie Oaks is only one man with one source.

Lenore Taylor? You seem to also be ignoring the enormous efforts Rudd went to, infinitely greater than any other Australian politician, to bring together a global agreement at Copenhagen. You also seem to be basing your argument on this political fiction that Rudd could have magically rammed it through the senate and gotten his way.

That doesn't change the fact he could have easily implemented it in government but publicly spoke against it. I'm also convinced that any vote in favour is only to gain the support of his colleagues rather than any genuine belief in it.

Um, no he could not have easily implemented it, the Labor Parties national platform was resolutely against it when he came to the leadership in 2006, changing it would have been very difficult indeed. And on basis of your cynicism about his voting motives I would argue you're predisposed to think cynically of him and there is little chance of a constructive dialogue.

Rudd over promised and under delivered - apart from Fair Work (which any labor would do), immigration and NBN I can't think of any major reforms (not just throwing money at things)

that he saw through to completion

. Gillard on the other hand has at least actually delivered on reforms.

Don't give me that crap line of tories since kingdom come that "oh he just through money at the problem" go down to hospitals, schools etc and find a NUM or a principal that tells you that funding is an enormous part of the problem. And name one reform Gillard has seen through to completion since Rudd left office? The closest I see her coming is the carbon pricing which is still three years off completion.

Rudd wasn't even part of the left faction

Which means what exactly? No Labor leader since Evatt has been. Gillard doesn't either, she is not part of the socialist left faction she is part of a small subfaction called the Ferguson left which is way more closely aligned with the a bunch of renegades from the right faction than it is with the major lefties. They are very trade union/blue collar worker oriented, not socially progressive the Ferguson left.

But this seems pointless, basically anything he does that you agree with you say "he was just playing politics" and anything you disagree with you say "huh! this is the real Rudd, isn't he awful."

[Rafy]

Children attempting suicide behind razor wire and he and his ministers strutted around wearing the fact like some sort of badge of honour, he can never redeem himself

And now you have Gillard trying to out-Howard the coalition on asylum seeker policy. Oh how far the ALP have fallen.

[Riproot]

Whitlam was my fave… so I'm gonna go with Goughy.

[funkshen]

gough whitlam supported the indonesian invasion of east timor

a true hero of the left

it took a sensible man like john howard to sort that out

[Rafy]

* was taken down by liberal scum through a horrible loophole in the legislative system.

The GG did what he did on the understanding that an election would immediately be called. The matter was essentially sent to the Australian people for their determination. Whitlam was subsequently defeated in what remains the largest 2PP landslide. If the people wanted him back they would have voted him back in.

[funkshen]

because having your government dissolved by the GG couldn't possibly tarnish your reputation, or be used by the opposition to curry favour with with the well informed voters of this great nation

hitler dissolving parliament and ruling by decree was legitimate too. it's what they wanted! they voted the weimar constitution and hitler in, after all.

it was a dick move.

[Lentern]

And now you have Gillard trying to out-Howard the coalition on asylum seeker policy. Oh how far the ALP have fallen.

And the coalition. I think you'll find Fraser was my second rated Prime Minister, ahead of Rudd, Hawke and Keating, while Gillard was only one place above Howard's Brutopia.

[Lentern]

gough whitlam supported the indonesian invasion of east timor

a true hero of the left

it took a sensible man like john howard to sort that out

I don't see how the East Timor crisis is really a left/right issue.