Postmodern education vs the good old three Rs (1 Viewer)

[braindrainedAsh]

There currently has been such a big debate about the best way to teach kids to read (Nelson advocates phonics) and also about the postmodern focus in high school English syllabuses.

I'm interested in what people think about this.

I have written a long ranty article with my views on Vibewire.net
http://www.vibewire.net/2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9771&Itemid=71

Here are some other articles with info about the debates;

http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/14/1123957945638.html
http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/14/1123957949743.html
http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/14/1123957949797.html
http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/15/1123958006652.html

Just some of the stories the Herald has been focusing on this week.

So what do you all think? Should we ditch postmodern English, and is phonics the way to go? Is back to basics education the best way for kids?

Or does anyone else think parents and Brendan Nelson should stop being so neurotic and let the professionals (teachers) decide?

 

[braindrainedAsh]

Some of the letters are also interesting

http://smh.com.au/news/letters/back...istic-for-words/2005/08/15/1123958000710.html

 

[absolution*]

The basics, such as phonics should be taught up until yr 10. The HSC should be based on post modernism and interpretation of texts. The HSC English exam should not be based on whether you can place a comma in the right spot. That's linguistics not English (as we know it today).

The reason why students today do not have a brilliant grasp of grammar/spelling is because of a failure at the primary level. Teaching grammar and examining it in the HSC is too late.

Children need to be taught the three R's in primary school, eventually with the focus moving towards interpretation of English later on.

One thing that is being forgotten is that to be able to interpret texts in a postmodern way you need to have a decent grasp of grammar. However thesedays MS Word tends to make us much more lazy.

I could not agree more. Asqy wins. A majority of the cohort not being able to structure and develop essays and sentences is a sad reflection on just how poorly english is being taught in the years preceding the HSC. Whilst post-modernism is an interesting way to interpret texts, the fact that students are still flustered by relatively straight-forward texts like BNW shows it should remain an extension topic and should not overlap into mainstream english like it did in last years final exam.

 

[braindrainedAsh]

I agree with asqy... even though my ranty article may seem to contradict, I think that the basics do need to be taught so students can get on to the harder stuff. I was lucky enough to be taught how to write essays well by my english teacher in year 11.... well enough so that I didn't have any trouble adapting to university level essay writing at all.

I guess this shows that a lot of this does have a lot to do with teaching quality, and maybe not even the syllabus at all. I certainly agree with Asqy that comma placement should not be tested in the HSC, however I have worked as a HSC english tutor and often some people have very poor written expression even when they can understand and interpret texts very well indeed.

I think the basics should be taught more solidly in primary school, so that high school can be devoted to higher learning and developing those basic skills of writing and grammar by using those skills to analyze texts and write essays.

I think some of it may come from teachers not understanding themselves though. I remember asking a crap english teacher I had in year eight how to use a semi colon correctly... she didn't know and couldn't explain it.

 

[SashatheMan]

I think MS Word has been my english tutor for the past 5 years.

yes

especially the option to find a similat word

 

[snapperhead]

the shame of it all is that teachers of my age (in the 30-40 year age bracket) were not taught the art of "language" as students. Its amusing that the arguments (and problems when it comes to structure, spelling etc) floating around now were present in our education system20-30 years ago!!
I could not tell you anything about consonants, nouns etc as they were never taught! Spelling was "as it sounds" and sentence structure wasnt an issue. And essay writing was what you did at uni!

bah..the whole system is stuffed and something radical needs to be done IMO

and yes, I do realise what I have written supports my lack of education!

 

[011]

How is intepretation of texts postmodern? It's just 'modern'. Postmodernism is really out there!

 

[absolution*]

How is intepretation of texts postmodern? It's just 'modern'. Postmodernism is really out there!

What the hell are you on about? The interpretation of texts is neither modern nor post-modern. Post-modernism is a way of thinking that can be associated with the interpretation of texts..

 

[walrusbear]

my theory is that anyone who hates postmodernism just doesn't understand it

i agree whole heartedly with the comments so far
the HSC focus is good at the moment - it enhances critical thinking at a younger age, preparing people for university

grammar, phonics etc. of course have a value and should be (and are as far as i thought) taught up to yr 10.

 

[Rafy]

The course does not imvolve analysing texts. Thats already done for you in the form of study guides, the internet, other essays etc. All that is assesed is ones ability to assemble that information together and the ramble and bullshit in an exam.

 

[Serius]

i dont think i was ever taught the 3 R's. i dont even know what they are, but iam guessing one of them is Reading

Reading i was tought at home before i went to school, i found i liked to read alot and started to read at a very high level early on, if i found i word i didnt know, i either tried to work out what it was, asked someone, or turned to the dictionary.

there is probably a problem, but in todays world i dont think there is much use in being able to write properly, like with a word processor i look brilliant. i dont think a students grasp on the topic can be sucessfully judged by their spelling and grammar... alot of old people say things like " you must be failing english" when u miss spell a word like beautiful [ yeah i used ot have trouble with that one] but no, iam not because it shouldnt be ablout that. english is about your grasp of key concepts. the basics are important, but someone who can spell perfectly could still easily be shit at english in grasping the key concepts.

i think the English sylabus needs to be changed. BNW and BR conparative study my whole class [ completely male in a cohort school] did very very well, where as the other crap topics eveyrone in my class did poorly. Boys arent dumber than girls, schools are catering for girls and less for boys. How about instead of some shit lovestory like Antony and Cleopatra were the boys alf fall asleep, we annalyse Predator or something cool like that.

 

[braindrainedAsh]

I totally disagree with your point that being able to write well isn't important.

The power of the written word should never be underestimated. While MS Word may fix up your spelling mistakes, it cannot improve the clarity of your written expression. There is a clear difference between what someone who knows how to use the spellchecker and someone who really knows how to write produce.

And trust me, word processors do not lead to instant brilliance. I read a lot of student's essays, and just because they have used MS Word spellcheck and grammar check does not mean their essays are brilliant. In some cases, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done to improve their clarity and style.

But I do agree that correct spelling is not an indication of good understanding. However, good spelling does help people take you seriously- it is like the "body language" of writing. For example, if you are slouching and whinging when trying to make a point to someone verbally they may not be as willing to take you seriously. It's the same with bad spelling and grammar- being sloppy may make people take you less seriously or not allow you the time to have your say. There is a lot of research going in to boys education, I think sometimes it may depend on what texts the teacher picks for the class to study.

 

[neo o]

Asqy : Bands 5 and 6 of the English HSC aren't assessed upon the material that's been used; (SEMI COLON!) they are assessed on structure mainly, since most essays in those two bands bring up mostly the same points...

 

[braindrainedAsh]

One of the problems I had at primary school was that a lot of kids took a long time to understand the basics, so the teachers had to focus on them and those of us who were more advanced would just get to play on the computer or colour in when we had finished our work.

I then got put in an academic extension class from grade 4-6, but then we just entered competition after competition.... we were the school show ponies basically. We spent our time in class doing brainteasers... fun and good for logical thinking but some grammar education would have been good.

Is it just me or did anyone else sense find that in primary school in our generation there was a much bigger focus on numeracy than literacy? It just seems that we really focused on maths, and all we learnt about English was reading and spelling. Or perhaps it was just because I could read before I went to school, so I used to get sent to the library to pick a harder book to read than the rest of the class so maybe I missed some of the literacy education lol.

 

[walrusbear]

One of the problems I had at primary school was that a lot of kids took a long time to understand the basics, so the teachers had to focus on them and those of us who were more advanced would just get to play on the computer or colour in when we had finished our work.

I then got put in an academic extension class from grade 4-6, but then we just entered competition after competition.... we were the school show ponies basically. We spent our time in class doing brainteasers... fun and good for logical thinking but some grammar education would have been good.

Is it just me or did anyone else sense find that in primary school in our generation there was a much bigger focus on numeracy than literacy? It just seems that we really focused on maths, and all we learnt about English was reading and spelling. Or perhaps it was just because I could read before I went to school, so I used to get sent to the library to pick a harder book to read than the rest of the class so maybe I missed some of the literacy education lol.

i was only ever taught grammar explicitly in yr 3, and damn i'm glad it happened.
there was more focus on maths in my primary school, easily.
we had a vague extension thing in yr 6 that was hardly revelatory.

 

[malkin86]

Grammar *is* taught at a primary school level (at least in year 2 it is), although it is quite possible that people have later forgotten *why* something 'sounds right' and only 'know' that it does. (or they can go.. WoW.. CaPiTaLs!!! I lIkE uSiNg ThEsE, sO i WiLl!!! - c'mon, you know you've seen this...)

Although the current trend in primary school teaching is to disregard phonics, the older primary school teachers still use it, and swear by it. Education has fashions and phases.

As I have studied French for some time, I believe it is important to have some grasp of a second language, as it teaches you how you use your mother tongue. I feel that I learned more English grammar in high-school French than I did in high-school English, by the teacher explaining 'ok, now *this* is how we do things in English, and **this** is how we do the same thing in French').
The idea with grammar in high-school, I believe, is that one is meant to absorb it osmosis-style by being a literate young jelly-bean.

 

[Generator]

Although the current trend in primary school teaching is to disregard phonics, the older primary school teachers still use it, and swear by it. Education has fashions and phases.

As far as I know, the current trend is one that has phonics as but one of the methods that a teacher may use in their approach to teaching, with some making more use of it than others (generally dependent upon the student/group in question). It isn't being disregarded.