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ALP to abolish full-fee places (1 Viewer)

volition

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Not-That-Bright said:
It often isn't 5, but reguardless what does it matter if they all meet the same performance requirements in the end to get the degree? If a student with a much lower uai can attend the same course as those with higher ones and do just as well... then I say the system needs some fixing :)
Hang on, what are you suggesting there?

I'm sure you already know that UAI isn't always directly indicative of a course's 'hardness'...
 

blackfriday

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if a cut-off score reflected difficulty, commerce would be 60 and engo would be 90-odd.

some dff places have a cut-off up to 14 points lower than the csp place, which is disturbing
 

Not-That-Bright

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Hang on, what are you suggesting there?

I'm sure you already know that UAI isn't always directly indicative of a course's 'hardness'...
I am aware the UAI system isn't supposed to reflect the difficulty of a course but the only reason I can imagine you would not want someone with a lower uai getting into that course (if in the end it is not to the detriment of other students, but is rather a positive force) is because that student isn't 'as good' as the other students.
 

wlauy1

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First of all, i liked to say that abolishing the full fee would be a bad idea. I'm a science grad who dtudy under CSP however i apply for the course of radiography at the start of 2006 and b/c my score (GPA) was abit below the avg i could only get into full fee. Now this is how the system works. All CSP places have to be filled in first, before they give out fee places. Second i realli wanted to do radiography but b/c i my avg was a bit of wat they expected ... (a Disctintion) i couldn't make it. In this case without the FEE i wouldn't be able to get into the course i desired the most since yr 12 (i did badly in yr 12). A FEE place doesn't mean u are dumber or u're buying into the course. It's for students who realli wanted to do the course but sadly miss out by a couple of pts. It doesn't mean that b/c u are paying fee, a person with a 80 could get into a 90 Enter course. And 2ndly i am not rich and so are my parents (they're not preofessionals or university grads).

I went to a public school and my parents are not professionals. But b/c i realli want to get into the course, they're willing to pay 23K a yr from their life savings. And students like me can always apply for fee help which means u could still study the course without having a rich parents or if your parents are not willing to support u (which is why a lot of students get CSP-help even they though they get into a CSP course). Hence Fee are not only for rich students. As i mentioned earlier paying fee doesn't means u're dumber than CSP students because studying in uni is a totally different case than high school and a fee student may do better than CSP students. If two students acquired rougly same enter or GPA (if they're in uni) but because all the CSP places are distributed to the students who achived better academic results, this means that both students will lose out in getting a place for the course. But if one of them is willing to pay fee (regardless whether he has rich paretns or not by getting fee help) then the uni may offered him a place b/c he's just slightly off the mark. Now this produce two benefits- 1) the uni could earn more money and 2nd) the student can get into the course. If both ofthe studetns decide to apply for fee places then the uni will again look at thier academic resutls and prob other criteria like certain subects taken during hih school or uni or interview. Both of them will have a fair chance of getting in.

Now those people who said that this only rich students could get in or they're jumping the cue are ignorant. Because if u truly desired to get into the course like myself u are willing to do watever like getting high marks or paying full fee. I read "THE AGE" paper toadys that states that this is an unfair game b/c the fee paying students can revert back to CSP if they do well academically. Well if they achieved high marks in their fee paying course why shouldn't they be reverted back to CSP, at least they're doing better than people who got in with CSP but just averaging a PASS or CREDIT. Reverting back to CSP from FEE is similar to applying for the course again where if u do well, the chances of u getting a CSP place is higher. Hence the fee is still imposed is b/c besides giving unis the chance to earn more money , it also give a chance to students who realli want to get into the course and just miss out by a few pts (Bear in mind that u could only get into fee when u just miss out on the pts eg.. enter or academic results such as GPA if u're in uni).

By the way i defer for a yr to complete my science degree and i tried realli hard to get high marks which i did and reapply again last yr (at the end of 2006) and finally my hard work paid off by gaining a CSP place. However b/c it's a competitive process there's a chance that i may not get in hence i still need to enrol into radiography using Full FEE. It would the same scenario where if i did well during my first yr of radiography and achieved a D avg, then i could revert it back to CSP the next yr. it's just that during my deferment yr, i work hard to acheived the same D avg so that i dun have to pay 23K for then first yr. If i did not defer and enrol straight away then my scenario would have change by paying 23K for the first yr and revert back to CSP after getting a D avg. Now for those students who couldn't revert back to CSP b/c thier results are not good enough, then htey just have to keep paying FULL FEE and that's a fair game.

Therefore my pt is that All students can apply for a fee place depending whether they realli want to get into the course or not regardless of whether they come from a rich or poor background by applying for fee-help. Second those who pay full fee, are those that miss out on a couple pts (whether it's enter, UAI or academic results) not those that miss out by at least 6PTs or more (in terms of enter/UAI). This doesn't make them dumber or not qualify for the same degree b/c they may do better than CSP students in thier course. And there's a limited places of FEE esp in health or medicine related courses due to clinical placement hence it will still be a competitive process b/w Fee-paying applicants. Hence the idea of abolishing full fee by labour doens't benefit studetns or unis alike or those poeple that said that this is unfair are totally ignorant. Feel free to give ur views on my comments.
 
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neo o

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we sooo shold also remove forign full fee payin people from uni. just lyke da rich da azns are stealing australisan sutdents places! ZOMG! down with the rich and da azns.
 

kmk

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i fully agree with wlauy1.
ppl who think dfee paying students are rich.. and 'buying their way into uni' are narrow minded (although that may be the case for some)

alot of the dfee students like wlauy1 said are hardworking kids that missed out by a small margin and probably went into the dfee position becos it was their dream or desired course.
i noe a friend whos gonna do dfee dentistry and has to borrow 80 grand with the FEE-HELP program... his family isnt super rich. he accepted the offer becos its a good course that will result in paying back the money later. (although its not easy)

my case is that i was offered a pharmacy (dfee) place and i'm still extrmely stressed about whether or not i should take this. the transfer from dfee to csp is possible in theory but will probably be very difficult in practice. going off topic what do u guys think? any advice would be great or should i transfer etc.. ive weighed up all the pros and cons and have my reasons for doing this course straight after school.. or should i just go off to my csp course? thanks

and does this mean that if the ALP is elected in the next elections, those kids in dfee places would become hecs and not pay their 20 or so grand a yr?
 

MoonlightSonata

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wlauy1 said:
First of all, i liked to say that abolishing the full fee would be a bad idea. I'm a science grad who dtudy under CSP however i apply for the course of radiography at the start of 2006 and b/c my score (GPA) was abit below the avg i could only get into full fee. Now this is how the system works. All CSP places have to be filled in first, before they give out fee places. Second i realli wanted to do radiography but b/c i my avg was a bit of wat they expected ... (a Disctintion) i couldn't make it. In this case without the FEE i wouldn't be able to get into the course i desired the most since yr 12 (i did badly in yr 12). A FEE place doesn't mean u are dumber or u're buying into the course. It's for students who realli wanted to do the course but sadly miss out by a couple of pts. It doesn't mean that b/c u are paying fee, aperson with a 80 could get into a 90 Enter course. And 2ndly i am not rich and so are my parents (they're not preofessionals or university grads). I went to a public school and my parents are not professionals. But b/c i realli want to get into the course, they're willing to pay 23K a yr from their life savings. And students like me can always apply for fee help which means u could still study the course without having a rich parents or if your parents are not willing to support u (which is why a lot of students get CSP-help even they though they get into a CSP course). Hence Fee are not only for rich students. As i mentioned earlier paying fee doesn't means u're dumber than CSP students because studying in uni is a totally different case than high school and a fee student may do better than CSP students. If two students acquired rougly same enter or GPA (if they're in uni) but because all the CSP places are distributed to the students who achived better academic results, this means that both students will lose out in getting a place for the course. But if one of them is willing to pay fee (regardless whether he has rich paretns or not by getting fee help) then the uni may offered him a place b/c he's just slightly off the mark. Now this produce two benefits- 1) the uni could earn more money and 2nd) the student can get into the course. If both ofthe studetns decide to apply for fee places then the uni will again look at thier academic resutls and prob other criteria like certain subects taken during hih school or uni or interview. Both of them will have a fair chance of getting in. Now those people who said that this only rich students could get in or they're jumping the cue are ignorant. Because if u truly desired to get into the course like myself u are willing to do watever like getting high marks or paying full fee. I read "THE AGE" paper toadys that states that this is an unfair game b/c the fee paying students can revert back to CSP if they do well academically. Well if they achieved high marks in their fee paying course why shouldn't they be reverted back to CSP, at least they're doing better than people who got in with CSP but just averaging a PASS or CREDIT. Reverting back to CSP from FEE is similar to applying for the course again where if u do well, the chances of u getting a CSP place is higher. Hence the fee is still imposed is b/c besides giving unis the chance to earn more money , it also give a chance to students who realli want to get into the course and just miss out by a few pts (Bear in mind that u could only get into fee when u just miss out on the pts eg.. enter or academic results such as GPA if u're in uni). By the way i defer for a yr to complete my science degree and i tried realli hard to get high marks which i did and reapply again last yr (at the end of 2006) and finally my hard work paid off by gaining a CSP place. However b/c it's a competitive process there's a chance that i may not get in hence i still need to enrol into radiography using Full FEE. It would the same scenario where if i did well during my first yr of radiography and achieved a D avg, then i could revert it back to CSP the next yr. it's just that during my deferment yr, i work hard to acheived the same D avg so that i dun have to pay 23K for then first yr. If i did not defer and enrol straight away then my scenario would have change by paying 23K for the first yr and revert back to CSP after getting a D avg. Now for those students who couldn't revert back to CSP b/c thier results are not good enough, then htey just have to keep paying FULL FEE and that's a fair game. Therefore my pt is that All students can apply for a fee place depending whether they realli want to get into the course or not regardless of whether they come from a rich or poor background by applying for fee-help. Second those who pay full fee, are those that miss out on a couple pts (whether it's enter, UAI or academic results) not those that miss out by at least 6PTs or more (in terms of enter/UAI). This doesn't make them dumber or not qualify for the same degree b/c they may do better than CSP students in thier course. And there's a limited places of FEE esp in health or medicine related courses due to clinical placement hence it will still be a competitive process b/w Fee-paying applicants. Hence the idea of abolishing full fee by labour doens't benefit studetns or unis alike or those poeple that said that this is unfair are totally ignorant. Feel free to give ur views on my comments.
Jesus! Use a paragraph break will you?

I see enough paragraphs like that in my law readings without having to burn my retinas seeing it here
 

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im kinda being a 'uai focused' person here but the way i see it is the only courses at the moment where you can justify a full fee paying student is com/law and usyd and unsw. clearly the minimum cutoff at unsw of 94 something demonstrates that the student is capable.

You start getting problems further down uai wise, and with things like the insearch program at uts in my view.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Conspirocy said:
im kinda being a 'uai focused' person here but the way i see it is the only courses at the moment where you can justify a full fee paying student is com/law and usyd and unsw. clearly the minimum cutoff at unsw of 94 something demonstrates that the student is capable.
yeah, but a student who gets a higher uai is more capable, and they can't get in because uni's are forced to let in rich people with less qualifications to make ends meet. tsk tsk.
 

Not-That-Bright

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yeah, but a student who gets a higher uai is more capable, and they can't get in because uni's are forced to let in rich people with less qualifications to make ends meet. tsk tsk.
No matter how much money you gave a university, there'd always be a chance for the university to have more money (and thereby offer more places to non-full fee students) by offering places to full-fee students.
 

Conspirocy

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Nebuchanezzar said:
yeah, but a student who gets a higher uai is more capable, and they can't get in because uni's are forced to let in rich people with less qualifications to make ends meet. tsk tsk.
not really they aren't missing out, they could do law at another uni. As could those fee paying students. Could go to Macquarie and UWS *cough cough*

Anyway, I guess it's still a lesser evil. Those places weren't there before, and they weren't taken from normal places as far as I understand.

So it's better that say out of 200 people, 50 more get into what they wanted as full fee paying, rather than all 200 people missing out.

As for 'missing out' it isnt really, you can study and do it as a grad and at most it takes you an extra year. Big deal, its like you did honours in your first degree. And as I said before, you can go to uni's that accept you. In my year if I got into Mac I would have thought about it. But now im greatfull im a dumbass who didn't study law.
 

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i'd frankly favour a system whereby the UAI ceased to exist, and university admission was based on looking at the entire school career (or at least 11+12) as well as extra curricular activities, passion, interviews and other measures of apptitude, then only people who would actually benifit and do well from uni would get in, thus lessening the need for full-fee paying students
 

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That system's called a full fee system with private sponsors...
 

Number7

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Let them pay. If they can handle the workload then they "deserve" to be there. Just like with UNSW Commerce this year, jsut cause there's a few extra thousand doing it (that really shouldn't be) just means there'll most likely be a couple extra thousand drop outs anyways and eventually won't end up "cheapening" the degree. Hell, they'll probably even make it harder!
 

stazi

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Nebuchanezzar said:
yeah, but a student who gets a higher uai is more capable, and they can't get in because uni's are forced to let in rich people with less qualifications to make ends meet. tsk tsk.
not necessarily. i didn't get a high UAI but can easily argue (and prove) that I'm as capable as people who achieved uais much higher than mine at uni
 

withoutaface

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Nebuchanezzar said:
yeah, but a student who gets a higher uai is more capable, and they can't get in because uni's are forced to let in rich people with less qualifications to make ends meet. tsk tsk.
DFEE places create more HECS places by making them financially viable. Noone with a high UAI is missing out on anything and in fact they're more likely to get in. If you oppose these places you're an idiot who places equality as the highest virtue, even when it leaves noone better off for having it.
 

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