Did you vote? (1 Viewer)

[jpr333]

As an impartial observer it appears Phanatical has a deep seeded bias towards the Chinese government, possibly spurred from some form of nationalism (are you Chinese or of Chinese decent?) skewing his argument. What does it matter if Falun Gong spreads 'misinformation' and propganda, it can be argued every pseudo religious group does this. The problem is the chinese government prevents them from practicing and spreading their message (noone stops the government from spreading their info), this is the crux of the debate, nothing else. Unless the group incites hate crimes or violence (yes their stance on traditional medicine is questionable but does it matter?) I don't understand the argument you put forward against Falun Gong, surely nothing it encourages justifies an utter and total ban in the PRC. Furtherly, I'm just gonna come out and say it, the Chinese government sucks, Cultural Revoultion, Great Leap Forward, Tianamen Square, state controlled media, censorship (hello google ban?) and announcements like this all make me sick.

Edit found this-

I supported, and still do to an extent, Chinese communism. Not this marxist crap, but proper Maoism. My natural inclination is that people are too stupid to elect their own leaders - and this SRC election has just gone and proven it. Chinese culture has a lot to teach the West - and a system of Government where one's leaders actually Lead can only be a positive step in a nation where even our smartest leaders barely have an average IQ.

Since Maoism was such a success? Wow how cynical and nilhistic, perhaps you should go to China and run for a position over there, you'd fit right in, that is if you don't go missing half way through a campaign.

 

[Phanatical]

The fact that people I know have been murdered by the cult doesn't mean anything to you? The fact that they are encouraging people to destroy their lives, and the lives of those around them doesn't mean anything to you? The fact that Falun Gong seek nothing less than the total destruction of our nation, and the installation of their leader Li as Emperor doesn't mean anything to you? They ARE terrorists, and if they were Muslim, the world would be after them right now.

 

[gerhard]

well, the thing is, you refuse to provide any evidence for your statements.

 

[jpr333]

Fucking lol, and the communist government in place has done what, murdered 20-30 MILLION ppl thx to the famines caused by Mao's great leap forward, killed countless scholars and educated in the cultural revolution and how about that thousand flowers programme... Yeh Maoism is the fucking bomb. But hell a religious movement outlawed by a communist government because it may or may not threaten the stability of the political environment must be a terrorist group, although they clearly claim they have no political aspirations or involvement, or even want to.

How much reading have you actually done on Falun Gong, and better yet how much propaganda have you been subject to from the state controlled media in china?

 

[jpr333]

This Has Fuck All To Do With The University Of Sydney Student Representative Council Elections

Shut This Thread Or Move It To The Politics Subforum

Seriously why does it matter there are several SRC threads, you can afford to let one spiral into a politcal discussion.

 

[Phanatical]

Fucking lol, and the communist government in place has done what, murdered 20-30 MILLION ppl thx to the famines caused by Mao's great leap forward, killed countless scholars and educated in the cultural revolution and how about that thousand flowers programme... Yeh Maoism is the fucking bomb. But hell a religious movement outlawed by a communist government because it may or may not threaten the stability of the political environment must be a terrorist group, although they clearly claim they have no political aspirations or involvement, or even want to.

How much reading have you actually done on Falun Gong, and better yet how much propaganda have you been subject to from the state controlled media in china?

While westerners may not understand the necessity of such great change in China, the Chinese would. Our proud nation stood on the brink of destruction, our people close to becoming the slaves of the foreign dogs. Without the leadership of Mao, our people would forever be considered lowly, inferior. We would be, right now, serving as slaves even while the emancipated peoples throughout the world enjoy freedom. Our nation paid a terrible price, but a necessary one for it to regain its rightful place as the world's most powerful nation - and because of the sacrifices of those who came before us, we now stand proud.

As for "Chinese Propaganda", I don't form my opinions on Falun Gong based on what the Government tells me. I form it based on the FACT that people I've known have suffered at the hands of this cult. How can you honestly suggest that this is NOT enough proof??

 

[Lhyviathan]

While westerners may not understand the necessity of such great change in China, the Chinese would. Our proud nation stood on the brink of destruction, our people close to becoming the slaves of the foreign dogs. Without the leadership of Mao, our people would forever be considered lowly, inferior. We would be, right now, serving as slaves even while the emancipated peoples throughout the world enjoy freedom. Our nation paid a terrible price, but a necessary one for it to regain its rightful place as the world's most powerful nation - and because of the sacrifices of those who came before us, we now stand proud.

Remember, guys... The Sensible Choice.

 

[Phanatical]

You may criticise the Chinese Government as much as you want. Quite a lot of your criticisms may even have grounding in reality. But perhaps you should look at your Own backyard before criticising others.

 

[jpr333]

Did you lift that from a pamphlet post 1950? What they initially did was noble to emacipate the country, but they went down the same path every Stalinist leader goes down, one of brutality and intolerance in asserting their own authority.

 

[gerhard]

jesus christ, quah is fucking nuts.

 

[jpr333]

or even dare I say a political discussion?

quick, quick, point out that I typed that and didn't speak it.

Are you retarded, my point was why did it MATTER that the thread turned this way, your point is moot and irrelevant.

 

[jellybeenz]

Oh my god. You think that the deaths of millions of people was necessary? Your the fucking one harping on about Falun Gong killing people or whatever and now you are saying that millions of dead people and the atrocities committed by the Chinese govt were necessary? That is disgusting. Those were real people, people died and were murdered and sufferred because of the incompetence of China's leadership under Mao. Necessary my fucking arse. The Cultural Revolution, Tianamen Square, The Famines. That was a disgusting waste of human life. The deaths of that many innocent people cannot ever be regarded as necessary.

 

[gerhard]

if i get into sydney next year, ill be supporting you.

that will make 61 students....

 

[Plebeian]

While westerners may not understand the necessity of such great change in China, the Chinese would. Our proud nation stood on the brink of destruction, our people close to becoming the slaves of the foreign dogs. Without the leadership of Mao, our people would forever be considered lowly, inferior. We would be, right now, serving as slaves even while the emancipated peoples throughout the world enjoy freedom. Our nation paid a terrible price, but a necessary one for it to regain its rightful place as the world's most powerful nation - and because of the sacrifices of those who came before us, we now stand proud.

As for "Chinese Propaganda", I don't form my opinions on Falun Gong based on what the Government tells me. I form it based on the FACT that people I've known have suffered at the hands of this cult. How can you honestly suggest that this is NOT enough proof??

If the Chinese 'understood the necessity of such great change'. they would not have officially disavowed the Cultural Revolution (as they did in 1981), or arrested the Gang of Four in 1976 when Mao died. I also fail to see how the failed economic / agricultural experiment that was the Great Leap Forward in any way helped China to become independent of the West. Ditto the Cultural Revolution. These were both domestic issues. Whether or not Mao was a nationalist leader, such leadership would never be sufficient reason to justify such massive failures. These were not 'sacrifices' that the Chinese people made for their freedom, because positive benefits did not come of them.

Also, China has no rightful place as the world's most powerful nation.

 

[pigs_can_fly]

i also find it ironic that ppl can't bag out the chinese govt, but that Phanatical takes the liberty of bagging out every other govt as 'foreign dogs'...

and he wonders why no one listens to him

 

[Phanatical]

I had a much more elaborate response typed out, but the server fuckered up and it was lost. Suffice to say, if it were not for the leadership of Mao, China would be back in the days of the tyrannical Ching dynasty, or worse, in the days of the tyrannical Chiang leadership. We would be seen as a joke to the world, laughed at and belittled.

 

[jellybeenz]

Yep. If it takes 30 million people dying to "save face", so be it.

Its one thing to be anti- Chiang-Kai Shek days (aka Cash my cheque) but its a completely different story to say that the deaths of millions of innocent people were necessary. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that if you watched the Red Guard beat your mother and grandmother to death with planks.

I doubt you would be extolling the virtues of Mao if you actually understood the extent to which his leadership destroyed the lives of innocent people, many of whom were loyal followers of him. If you dared to express an opinion that was even slightly contrary to the party line, you and your family would have been branded "class enemies", ostracised, arrested the minute something went wrong, tortured, stripped of your belongings and perhaps sent to labour camps in the countryside only to die. And considering who you are, you wouldn't even need to express an opinion contrary to the party line, because you do have a unique ability to make people dislike you and someone would dob you into the authorities just out of spite.

I think political change was necessary in China after the leadership of Chiang Kai-Shek, but I think its sad what that political change turned out to be... Just like political change was necessary in Tsarist Russia, but again, the horrors that were inflicted upon innocent people cannot be ignored.

 

[Phanatical]

I'm not saying that the actual events were positive. But I am saying that the intention behind those events was absolutely necessary. What it comes down to is that Mao was a great thinker, but he wasn't so much of a "doer". He had two main flaws - he was ignorant of those under his command, and he was (like most men) a slave to the pleasures of the flesh - most of the atrocities committed were at the order of the ruthless and selfish Mme Jiang Qing who, like a famous SRC President, was an actress. Just saying, that's all....

 

[jpr333]

You do realise you are euphamistically sweeping over events that are on par with the atrocities witnessed in ww2 in terms of casualties, and these occured in a time of peace against a country's own people.

Edit- and that comparison above is flawed in so many ways I don't know where to start.

 

[Plebeian]

I'm not saying that the actual events were positive. But I am saying that the intention behind those events was absolutely necessary. What it comes down to is that Mao was a great thinker, but he wasn't so much of a "doer". He had two main flaws - he was ignorant of those under his command, and he was (like most men) a slave to the pleasures of the flesh - most of the atrocities committed were at the order of the ruthless and selfish Mme Jiang Qing who, like a famous SRC President, was an actress. Just saying, that's all....

This argument was never about Mao specifically, it was about the Chinese Government. Even if Mao had no ideas of his own, and was a complete puppet for Jiang Qing and the rest of the Gang of Four (which I find a bit difficult to believe, considering his strong personality), it does not absolve the Government of responsibility - merely Mao. Jiang Qing was just as much a Government figure as Mao was (she was deputy director of the Cultural Revolution).

Your argument is like saying that the Nazis starting WWII was necessary to raise employment in Germany. As far as the German government was concerned, it might have been well-intentioned. But considering the consequences that were bound to occur, that doesn't make it a justifiable course of action overall - simply a shortsighted one.