• Best of luck to the class of 2024 for their HSC exams. You got this!
    Let us know your thoughts on the HSC exams here
  • YOU can help the next generation of students in the community!
    Share your trial papers and notes on our Notes & Resources page
MedVision ad

Differences between medical schools- PCL vs. PBL etc. (1 Viewer)

kenxz

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
11
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
medicine @ monash

hi guys,

as there are a couple of monash medics here,
would like to ask a couple of questions about medicine at monash.

1) how is the PBL in Monash, do you guys feel that PBL has established a strong scientific foundation that is required in the profession?

2) with monash malaysia up, does the MBBS from monash become kinda common, with so many people having the degree.

3) lastly, do u guys remember much about your interviews? any advice? i am having it in a couple of weeks.

thanks.
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
3,527
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2003
im not from monash.. but dun they do PCL?.. slightly different to PBL..
rofl find a med degree with a strang scientific and tat would be interesting

i doubt the malaysian campus will degrade the MBBS quality..

i ruined my monash interview... w00t :D
 

inasero

Reborn
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
2,497
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
1) how is the PBL in Monash, do you guys feel that PBL has established a strong scientific foundation that is required in the profession?

2) with monash malaysia up, does the MBBS from monash become kinda common, with so many people having the degree.

3) lastly, do u guys remember much about your interviews? any advice? i am having it in a couple of weeks
1) Alvin is right (shock horror!) in that it is actually PCL. I can't tell you exactly how that differs from PBL since I haven't done those but at a fundamental level they are quite similar. What a PCL involves is reading through a "Patient Centred Case" on Monday- which, as the name suggests, involves a theoretical situation in which a patient presents with a biommedical issue. Throughout the week the medical students will be learning their clinical skills, ethics and legal, social and biomedical issues related to the case. By Friday we will have had a more comprehensive understanding of the various interactions in the aforementioned factors for the provision of holistic patient health care and we try to discuss how they apply specifically to this patient's case.
By the way we have copyright laws and they are quite anal about this kind of stuff- so I never posted these attachments okay?

2) Not really, since the MBBS students over there iare funded by the Malaysian government and in return give a certain amount of years of service back. I guess the intake has increased slightly, but overall it's not too common- Monash Univ. has an average sized medical faculty and there are many med facs in Australia, with more opening up within the next few years.

3) I can't remember much except for the fact that I wore torn jeans and a white shirt so as not to look like a poser and appear more casual...but I certainly don't recommend doing that unless you are confident in your rapport with the interviewers. My advice would be to RELAX and try to see the interview as a fun experience because being nervous will definitely show and will leave interviewers with that impression based on a single meeting. Other things include really just basic things like maintaining eye contact, appropriate volume of speech, leaning forwards slightly, not interrupting, keeping your hands visible, not using ostenatious/convoluted words :)P) and giving a realistic/honest assessment of yourself (e.g. if you don't know the answer to a question don't waffle on in an attempt to look educated but admit your lack of knowledge regarding that subject).

I found it good overall except I felt a bit bad at the end because I forgot one of the interviewer's names and I couldn't address her, but in all it was as expected and in accordace with the interview outline they posted out beforehand.
 

kenxz

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
11
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Thanks! it has really been informative and useful.
thanks again!
 

kenxz

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
11
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Thanks for the PCL example inasero.

so after reading the Patient Centred Case on monday, do the students have to do alot of self-study and research on the case? or do they attend lectures where information about the case is provided to them?
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
3,527
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2003

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
3,527
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2003
By the way we have copyright laws and they are quite anal about this kind of stuff- so I never posted these attachments okay?
i typed this one up...

this is atypical.. its only 3 session and not very indepth usually 4.
=P u never saw any of this
by downloading im not responsible for anything u do with it
 

Bob.J

ZoOm
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
904
Location
Sydney-Newcastle
Gender
Male
HSC
2002
ooOoo, im gonna get in so much trouble for this

usyd grad med/dent pbl working problem 1



TRIGGER TEXT Mr Sarich's chest pain

Image: Overweight, middle-aged man in emergency medicine clutching his chest while his wife mops his brow.

You are a medical student assigned to a registrar on duty in the Emergency Medicine Department at Central City Hospital. About 30 minutes before you see him, Mr John Sarich was wrapping and stacking newsapers at his suburban newsagency when, over the course of a few minutes, he felt a pain in his chest. He called his wife, who was working with him in the shop, and she drove him to hospital.

When you see him Mr Sarich says he is still in pain.


PATIENT DATA Mr Sarich's chest pain


Presenting Problem
John Sarich is a 55 year old newsagent who has been brought to the Emergency Dept by his wife with a half hour history of continuing chest pain.

History of the Present Illness

7 am today:
the patient was wrapping newspapers in his shop when he felt the sudden onset of chest pain.
chest pain - crushing, retrosternal, radiating to left arm and throat.
the patient felt anxious and called his wife. She decided to drive him to the nearby hospital emergency department because the GP wasn't open and she didn't want to wait for an ambulance.
three days ago Mr Sarich had a similar but milder central chest pain and discomfort in his left arm when carrying shopping parcels for his wife. Had to stop. Pain and discomfort disappeared within three minutes and he carried on. This was the first time he had ever experienced these symptoms.
two nights ago there was a further episode of chest pain and arm discomfort while watching television following a heavy meal. The pain was distressing and lasted a few minutes. He assumed he had indigestion.
On arrival in Emergency Department

still in severe chest pain - described as being "like a compressing steel band" around his chest. It did not vary with respiration and did not radiate through to the back.
Arm discomfort - described as a "vague heaviness".
Patient felt nauseated and slightly short of breath.
No recent history of fever, respiratory tract infection, blood-stained sputum or purulent sputum.
Initial Assessment

Overweight.
Distressed, pale, sweating slightly.
Pulse rate 90/min, respiratory rate 26/min.
Blood pressure 185/95.
JVP not elevated and no peripheral oedema.
Heart sounds soft, 4th heart sound audible.
Chest - a few scattered basal crepitations bilaterally
Initial Investigations

ECG : ST segment elevation in leads V1 to V4, consistent with acute anterior myocardial infarction. No evidence of old infarction
Initial Management

ECG monitor attached.
Oxygen administered via mask.
Intravenous cannula inserted and blood drawn for biochemistry and haematology.
Morphine 5mg given intravenously (for pain relief).
Rapid assessment of suitability for primary coronary angioplasty (balloon dilatation) performed, risks and benefits of angioplasty explained, and consent to perform angioplasty obtained.
Patient urgently transferred to the cardiac catheterisation laboratory. Angiography showed 90% narrowing of the left anterior descending (LAD) artery.
Successful angioplasty and stenting of the blockage in the LAD performed within 45 minutes of Mr Sarich arriving at the Emergency Department.
Rapid resolution of chest pain and ECG changes after angioplasty and stenting.
Patient transferred to the Coronary Care Unit.
Subsequent Detailed Assessment

Past History

No known major illnesses.
No previous hospitalisations, including no previous operations, visited doctors infrequently.
Specific vascular risk factors:
Smokes 20 cigarettes per day and has done so since age ~20 years.
High blood pressure (150/95) noted during an insurance examination 5 years ago. Subsequently confirmed by the GP on several occasions.
Total cholesterol 6 mmol/L documented by the GP several months ago. Had been instructed about a diet to lose weight and asked to come back for review, but did not return.
No known diabetes, but never checked.
No past history of gastrointestinal bleeding, no other major symptoms on systems review.
No medications.
No known allergies.
Personal History

Works as a newsagent. Normally has a very high physical workload, but in the last 12 months has had some additional financial problems which were adding emotional stress.
Lives at home with his wife and two children. Wife also has full time job.
The family eats out at least twice a week.
Does no regular exercise outside of work.
Alcohol: 1 - 2 glasses of beer every night.
Family History

The patient's father died of a myocardial infarction at the age of 70 (his first myocardial infarction having occurred at the age of 53).
Mother alive and well.
No known heart disease in 2 siblings.
Examination

Weight 100kg.
Height 185cm.
Pulse rate 70/minute and regular.
Blood pressure 150/90.
JVP 4cm above sternal (breastbone) angle. (Note: Physical examination of jugular venous pulse (JVP) is an integral part of cardiovascular examination and provides valuable information to reach diagnosis and monitor therapy for many cardiac illnesses. Clinicians often neglect this part of examination. During clinical teaching it should be emphasized that precise bedside analysis of jugular venous pulse and pressure is not only possible but also highly desirable. In healthy persons the JVP is 3-4cm above the sternal notch or angle)
Heart sounds soft, no murmurs, 4th heart sound no longer present.
Chest clear.
Pedal pulses normal, no peripheral oedema.
Soft bruit (bruit is an auscultatory sound) over the right carotid and the left femoral arteries.
No abnormality found on examination of other systems.
Other Investigations

ECG - ST segments have returned to baseline, but T waves inverted in leads V1-V6.
Full blood count from admission: normal.
Plasma biochemistry from admission: Glucose 8.8 mmol/L (normally fasting levels 4-6); otherwise normal.
Serial markers of myocardial injury:
Creatine kinase (CK), troponin T
Admission: 180, 0.1
+8 hours: 1600, 2.0
+24 hours: 640, 4.1
+72 hours: 210, 1.8
Lipid profile: Total cholesterol 5.3 mmol/L.
Chest X'ray: mild cardiomegaly, mild pulmonary venous congestion.
Echocardiogram showed reduced wall motion in the anterior wall of the left ventricle.
Diagnostic Decision/Mechanism

Blockage (thrombus) of a coronary vessel (artery) resulting in ischaemia, hypoxia and cell death within the myocardium.
Management

Urgent relief of the blockage (medical emergency), either by PTCA (Percutaneous Transluminal Coronary Angiography) and stenting or by the administration of thrombolytic therapy.
Subsequent Progress

Monitored in the Coronary Care Unit for 48 hours before transfer to a general ward.
No further chest pain, no heart rhythm disturbances or other complications.
BP monitored: 120/90
Blood glucose levels: normal
Discharged 5 days after admission.
Long-term Management

Discharged on drug therapy:
An anti-inflammatory drug with anti-clotting effects (Aspirin) 100mg daily (indefinite)
Anti-platelet drug (Clopidogrel) 75mg daily (6 weeks)
A beta-blocker with anti-hypertensive effects (Atenolol) 50mg daily (indefinite)
Angiotensin Converting Enzyme (ACE) inhibitor, anti-hypertensive and vasodilator for heart failure (Enalapril) 5mg daily (indefinite)
Cholesterol-lowering drug, that inhibits enzyme in liver (HMG-Co A reductase) e.g., Pravastatin 40mg daily (indefinite)
Patient referred to a cardiac rehabilitation program to provide further education, detailed dietary advice, commencement of a graded exercise regimen and support towards smoking cessation.
Advised to see his GP within the first week.
Advised to have his lipid levels checked in three months.
 

Lexicographer

Retired 13 May 2006
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
8,275
Location
Darnassus ftw
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
Here's my last PBL case, entitled "Lauren Cook".

It's the first of our "clinical" PBLs - until this one all of our PBLs had been purely public health issues, like indigenous, geriatric, youth health; cultural perceptions of health etc.

I don't know how much they care about me uploading these but they're not about to check a NSW high school forum so whatever.
 

inasero

Reborn
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
2,497
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
good stuff med students!

to those that troll around on the forums...we know who you are! if you have some useful information to contribute feel free to contribute and don't just leech off other peoples' experience
 

ishq

brown?
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
932
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Thanks for those cases guys! It was really interesting reading. And conclusions. Just a few questions -

1.This is a one week thing? Monday to Monday?

2. Lexi - by "clinical" PBL you mean one-on-one patient scenarios - where the patient has a 'unique' (wrong word?) background , as compared to the public health issues?

3. Like kenzx asked, Are you guys presented with these monday, and then taught about it? In lectures etc? Or do you do some individual prelim research, which is followed by 'expert' (?) assessment?

4. At PBL/PCL schools - is this the only form of teaching? By that, I mean, is it all hands on learning?

Thanks. :)

PS - to kenxz - by having your interview in a few weeks, do you mean postgrad? Good luck for it!
 

kenxz

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
11
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
hey ishq,

My interview is for the undergrad course in monash.
Yea...i am an international student from singapore, hence the different interview timing from the year 12s.

you are applying to monash too?
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
3,527
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2003
ishq.. u kno these are possibly the best questions so far this year?
lols.. i realise i cant answer for all schools

1. for me its 4 sessions.. per case..and 9 cases a semester.. and all past stuff is examinable ( like sem1 yr 1 is examinable in yr 2 sem2).. not tru of all unis :p

2. no i think he means.. lik in this one there is a scientific pathology and u need to figure it out.. not "what resources are available to ppl with XYZ condition.. or how many ppl have this condition .. how common etc?"... i havent seen his past cases.. but that wat it usualli means..
goin through history, Physical and investigations.. is clinical..

3. yes.. and no.. most ppl get about 5 hrs of lectures..and u need to fill in the blanks.. usually the harder stuff are lectures.. and we hav anatomy, pathology and histology labs which are also DIY :p

4. depends on school, at Adel is pretti much is.. DIY.. and honestly.. its not cheaper this way... contrary to popular belief.. its more independent tho..

hopefully other ppl will fill u in about their schools :p

Lexicographer edit: Paragraphs = clarity.


+po1ntdext3r+ edit: Yes, Mom.


inasero edit: Hey! I'm your mum! Show me some respect.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lexicographer

Retired 13 May 2006
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
8,275
Location
Darnassus ftw
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
For my course:

[1] No, we only get one PBL each week (thank God) and each case is two sessions. Thus one case lasts two weeks.

[2] Alvin's got it. The "public health" cases were all about "how does this affect the community", "what are the statistics", "what resources are available" etc. The "clinical" cases are more "what are the symptoms of this condition", "what are the risk factors", "who is at most risk", "how is it treated" etc. Individual conditions rather than social science fluff.

[3] In first semester of first year, the PBLs are pretty much seperate from the lecture content of the other subjects in terms of science, because they're all about social issues. Granted the subject with the PBLs in it (there's only one subject that uses PBLs, and it's Clincal Practice) has "Fixed Resource Sessions" (read: lectures) which match the PBL content...but nobody goes. Even I don't turn up half the time, and I hate skipping. When I do go I bring Mercury (my laptop) and watch anime.

Anyway, after first semester instead of three mildly science subjects (ie there's a little crossover but not much) we have the mammoth Normal Systems units (worth 17 credit points each, according to my confirmation of enrolment). These are fully integrated units and are divided into "blocks" by system. Our first system next semester is circulatory, then respiratory I think. We learn all of gross anatomy, cell biology, normal function and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't yet be bothered looking up. Our other unit, Clinical Practice (full year) is now much better integrated with our scientific instruction in terms of both PBL cases and clinical skills sessions. We learn auscultation (stethoscope technique) and thoracic examinations etc, and basically learn about all aspects of that system. The content of next semester (Med I sem 2) is assessable in the monster end-of-Med II-barrier exams (ie all content from Med I sem 1, Med II sem 1 + 2 is assessed at the end of second year).

[4] Not applicable to UWA but anyway, no it's not. It's just used a lot more than the "more traditional" schools. These are UWA, Melbourne, Tasmania - I have learned that these also are "integrated" courses, but more on the didactic side of the spectrum than the PBL side. I believe Monash, Adelaide and Newcastle have something like three PBL sessions a week? I don't know, ask them.

If you don't know what I mean by "Med I" etc, it's just a quick (and universally accepted) way of saying "first year medicine". There may be other stuff you don't understand, I can't be bothered checking. Hope this helps.
 

inasero

Reborn
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
2,497
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
Monash has 2 (two) PCL sessions a week...one on Monday lasting for an hour just to raise some preliminary questions (refer to Part A) and one two hour tutorial on Friday (all other parts).

Like kenzx asked, Are you guys presented with these monday, and then taught about it? In lectures etc? Or do you do some individual prelim research, which is followed by 'expert' (?) assessment?
Basically the case is presented on Monday and we don't get into the theory side of things too much. The tutor will usually tell us what we should read up on for Monday at the conclusion of the previous PCL's session (Friday) so we come armed with some vague idea of what to talk about. But other than that we are not really expeced to know too much regarding the clinical aspects of a particular disease. On the Monday session we raise some questions we might like to explore in more detail on Friday (these almost invariably include the Causes, Diagnosis, Investigations, Treatments and Psychosocial aspects relating to a disease). These questions are allocated to different people who have the responsibility of researching their alocated section and e-mailing the info out to the other PCL group members prior to attending the Friday tutorial. We are not taught about the PCL as such in the lectures but there might be some relevant lectures and we are supposed to piece together the information which is relevant to our week's PCL case. For example, last week the PCL was centred around DVT (Deep Venous Thrombosis) and although we didn't have lectures on DVT as such, we did have lectures on Blood Transfusion, Thrombosis (process of clotting) and haemodynamics and we were able to see how to relate this newfound knowledge to clinical practice and real life. So I guess you can begin to more fully appreciate what the Monash med faculty really means when it says that it is moving towards a more "integrated" approach to medicine.

Hope that helped. Any questions feel free to post them here.
 

ishq

brown?
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
932
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Thank you heaps guys!!! Im loving listening to you people talk about the way you are being taught!(Tell more! I've always wondered what anatomy lessons are like.......) After reading pointdexter, lexi and inasero's description of their respective med schools, my imaginary med school has been completely revamped.
I have some more questions - but I'm sure some of them can be googled (I know you guys have exams - good luck!). So I shall do some home work and return.

Kenxz - Yes!!! I'm applying to monash! *little dance of excitement* Tell us how your interview goes! Lots of Good Luck!!!!

Thanks guys :)
 

inasero

Reborn
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
2,497
Gender
Male
HSC
2003
lol if anybody gets into Monash I'm sure they should shout me a drink seeing how much time I take up posting info about my course lol...yes I'm looking at you too ishq!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top