US and Israel agree boycott plan (1 Viewer)

[S1M0]

Why should Palestine recognise ISrael? When Israel will not recognise Palestine? lol wtf.

Why should Palestine recognise Israel? When Israel continues to hold onto the occupied territories.

Why should Palestine recognise Israel? when ISrael continues to blow up Palestinians - falsing claiming them to be militia?


There is no reason for Palestine to recognise ISrael at all. FOr Israel there is every reason to recognise the Palestinan government -end all the sucide bombings,

Israel is the one in power, and it is up to them to begin a peace movement. I dont know why America is involved - (but then we all know why )

This is a good point. A peace iniative should be made by both sides making the compromise. Forcing one side to make a compromise for the sake of the other is going to get the situation nowhere.

 

[banco55]

Don't know about Syria, but Egypt wasn't sided with either Russia or America. We were socialist, not capitalist or communist. But we weren't capitalist, so Britian used Israel to fight their war for them when we took control of the Souis Canal.

Figured i'll bring it up.

They used the Israeli invasion as a pretext to "protect" the canal. The problem was that the Egyptian army as totally incompetent and were driven back much faster by the Israelis than the British and French anticipated. Of course when the British and French did invade they went through the Egyptians like a hot knife through butter.

After Suez Egypt became a de-facto ally of the Soviets until Sadat broke with them. Soviet pilots even engaged Israeli pilots on behalf of Israel during the war of attrition.

 

[S1M0]

No!

...



It was never Palestinian land to begin with. The people would be better described as Jordyptian or some variant of that.



The trouble with that is that for most of the moon coons that will be the same day that Israel and its citizens are driven into the ocean or nuked.

Then again it wasn't really Israeli, or Jewish, land to begin with. When the Israelis fled Egypt, the land was previously occupied by another civilisation or tribe or race of people.

 

[S1M0]

They used the Israeli invasion as a pretext to "protect" the canal. The problem was that the Egyptian army as totally incompetent and were driven back much faster by the Israelis than the British and French anticipated. Of course when the British and French did invade they went through the Egyptians like a hot knife through butter.

After Suez Egypt became a de-facto ally of the Soviets until Sadat broke with them. Soviet pilots even engaged Israeli pilots on behalf of Israel during the war of attrition.

Well, in terms of our army's "compentency" as you so put it, its kinda hard to have an effective army when you are essentially boycotted by the world in terms of both imports and exports, and are so poorly equiped due to lack of both funding and equipment by either side.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

You seem to be very passionate about this argument. I was just trying to go down the avenue of hard copy proof and deduce whether there actually was a solid outline of where Israel was occupying Palestine because you did say that there will be peace when Israel (and I quote) "get the fuck out of where they don't belong".

You seem to believe very much that this is a war about land. I just want to ask if you heard of the camp david (2000), the peel partition (1937- pre WW2 I add), or the recent disengagements from gush katif? If you haven't don't worry because naturally, as on many past threads, we could start an argument going over past policies for land but it would get us no where. I state these so that if you do not know what they are you could look them up or if you want I can explain them to you. But do not wish to argue over land because like I said, many other threads have already done this and I don't believe this is the sole problem.

Please explain what you mean by "international irresponcibility and aggression on the part of Israel means nothing". As in, what do you mean by international irresponsibility?

Oh, by no means is this all about land. My original quote was fraight with rage, concerning that they should get out of where they don't belong. I, personally, believe that as an international citizen a country has to behave, it has to engage in proper protocols, abide by international law and just be an all around nice guy. Israel hasn't done any such thing. Hotshot's post has a few reasons as to why this is, and I put those actions under the term "international irresponcibility", because that's effectively what they've be doing - acting irresponcibly on an international level. I can't say that I'm terribly familiar with the specifics of these treaties etc, although my guess is that an agreement was reached with comprimises from both sides. Regardless of that, Israel continues to act with aggression like it always has. It's like the US's war on terror. You can't bomb a country, killing thousands of civilians in the name of picking off a few king pin terror suspects. In the same way, it's unjust for Israel to begin a massive bombing campaign against Lebanon, all of its citizens for retribution. Absolutely unjust, absolutely irresponcible. You can't reward bad bahaviour, and Israel has been a naughty, naughty boy. They were given land under dubious circumstances, they misused the land, annexing parts of other countries, bombing surrounding countries and acting as an aggressor. This isn't behaviour that can be justified.

In essence, both sides have made very silly mistakes. Israel, moreso.

Also, when you say, "land has been constantly stolen by greedy-ol Israel year after year, starving Palestinians and sending them further and further into poverty means jackshit", are you suggesting the disputed territories is what is sending...sorry, what has added to palestinian poverty?

I'm saying that, as a symbolic figurehead of the whole debacle, that building a giant wall between the two countries is indeed sending Palestine further into poverty. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere about Israel hogging water supplies as well. I can't remember where, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[nathan71088]

and just be an all around nice guy. Israel hasn't done any such thing.

You have said a lot of interesting things. Many I disagree with but I don't wish to incite an argument, becuase to fully discuss such issues is impossible in this way. I would like to comment, though, on refrences to "chumminess" "fair play" "nice guys" and "naughty, naughty boys". I recognise that you believe in what you do and also that you know I believe in something different, but putting aside both biases, you will recognise that there is a law and there is a desire for survival by both country and citizen. While I know that you truly do recognize this as a serious issue, such words invoke a sense of child's play which we and everyone else know is not the type of play this is. Israel, does not get on with their neighbours. Their neighbours do not get on with them. It is dwarfed by every country in the region. It fights to survive. Lebanon was a war against Hezbollah. I do not wish to focus on it but you brought it up. There were terrorists in Lebanon, Israel went to get rid of them. For a number of years Israel did not attack these terrorists. When katushya rockets fell, Israel took action. Were they the agressor no. Were they aggressive...you saw the damage, but are rockets still falling...yes, kasam rockets fall still, but not as frequently. Please, war is not childsplay, have no misconceptions about proper international relations either. There are no real nice guys and there is no chumminess.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

The use of such words was clearly used for effect. Try not to take this stuff, the way I word stuff that seriously.

As for what you've said, indeed, I recognise that both side have made mistakes. I don't really see how, logically, one can defend Israels actions though. For lack of a better example, it'd be like someone throwing rocks over my fence, and going next door to smash their entire house up. Doesn't really make sense, especially considering that I got moved in by the neighbourhood commitee onto their land.

Metaphors for all!

 

[banco55]

The use of such words was clearly used for effect. Try not to take this stuff, the way I word stuff that seriously.

As for what you've said, indeed, I recognise that both side have made mistakes. I don't really see how, logically, one can defend Israels actions though. For lack of a better example, it'd be like someone throwing rocks over my fence, and going next door to smash their entire house up. Doesn't really make sense, especially considering that I got moved in by the neighbourhood commitee onto their land.

Metaphors for all!

I think Israel's being fairly restrained (especially by Arab standards).

 

[nathan71088]

Rock-ets not rocks. Rockets kill people. Israel went and removed them, destroying these sites. A metaphor does not work here. We are talking about life and death. You will tell me that many civillians died in lebanon. Do not direct your anger at those removing the threat. Wanna talk in metaphors. A person has a painful cancer, a doctor comes and cuts it out, causing pain and a big scar...hmm lets think about suing the doctor aye, he's a monster...

 

[onebytwo]

Wanna talk in metaphors. A person has a painful cancer, a doctor comes and cuts it out, causing pain and a big scar...hmm lets think about suing the doctor aye, he's a monster...

well, since this doctor (israel) has not just failed to remove the cancer (hizbollah), but also infected the patient (lebanon) with more disease (hizbollah supporters), i'd say that were dealing with a pretty shit doctor....a doctor that shouldnt be allowed to practice medicine (no more military/weaponary), wouldnt you say?

also, how rude of the doctor to operate without the patients consent

 

[nathan71088]

well, since this doctor (israel) has not just failed to remove the cancer (hizbollah), but also infected the patient (lebanon) with more disease (hizbollah supporters), i'd say that were dealing with a pretty shit doctor....a doctor that shouldnt be allowed to practice medicine (no more military/weaponary), wouldnt you say?

also, how rude of the doctor to operate without the patients consent

Rockets were being fired into Israel by Hizbollah cells in south Lebanon. Israel stopped this from happening as frequently as it did. Consent? I think you have misunderstood this. Israel did NOT attack Lebanon. The military was not TARGETED. No "operation" was done ON Lebanon. Hezbollah signed the consent forms as soon as they launched the first rocket, "wouldn't you say?"

Further more, do you really believe, more poeple supported Hizbollah because of Israel?

A word on the metaphor, as soon as a person's disease starts affecting another and this person refuses to remove it, action is taken, just as smokers will be stopped from smoking in a club. Do smokers consent to that?

 

[onebytwo]

Israel did NOT attack Lebanon. The military was not TARGETED. No "operation" was done ON Lebanon.

um...smashed up airport....bombed power stations....polluted and ruined lebanese coast line....pulvarised civilian buildings.
when questioned about the attack on the airport, the israeli response was "to prevent the kidnapped soldier from being smuggeld out of lebanon....LOL
when questioned about the bombing of the power station, it was "to give them minimal light at night, so the soldier couldnt be transported from place to place" LOL, what a heap of bs

Further more, do you really believe, more poeple supported Hizbollah because of Israel?

of course, its not a matter of opinion, its a fact. in lebanon (and in any other country for that matter) a national resistance will always be supported against a foreign invader

A word on the metaphor, as soon as a person's disease starts affecting another and this person refuses to remove it, action is taken, just as smokers will be stopped from smoking in a club. Do smokers consent to that?

the smokers are often allocated to a section of the club, so if you dont like smoke, you dont sit in that section. if someone had the flu, they cant be prevented from going out

 

[Aryanbeauty]

It's not just US and Israel that refused to work with current Palestinian government led by Hamas, but also EU, Russia and UN. I don't know what the fuss is all about? If Hamas can rule palestine without US/EU/Russia/UN aid then they don't really need to recognise Israel. Refusing to reconise Israel and at the sametime demand foreign AID from the quartet will not work cause you can't have it both ways. Beggars can't be choosers.

 

[withoutaface]

One day there'll be peace, probably when Israel and its citizens get the fuck out of where they don't belong.

So I suppose you plan on emigrating some time soon and leaving your land to the original tribal owners?

 

[withoutaface]

um...smashed up airport....bombed power stations....polluted and ruined lebanese coast line....pulvarised civilian buildings.
when questioned about the attack on the airport, the israeli response was "to prevent the kidnapped soldier from being smuggeld out of lebanon....LOL
when questioned about the bombing of the power station, it was "to give them minimal light at night, so the soldier couldnt be transported from place to place" LOL, what a heap of bs

Perhaps now the Lebanese government will learn that having a terrorist militia army larger than their own within their own fucking borders isn't such a good idea, and work to eradicate it.

of course, its not a matter of opinion, its a fact. in lebanon (and in any other country for that matter) a national resistance will always be supported against a foreign invader

Invasion implies Israel was looking for lebensraum.

the smokers are often allocated to a section of the club, so if you dont like smoke, you dont sit in that section. if someone had the flu, they cant be prevented from going out

Should the club allow a second set of bouncers, not controlled by them, to set up a second checkpoint where they reject anyone they like? No? This is because the club owner should have a monopoly on the enforcement of club rules, just as a government needs to have a monopoly on legitimate use of force or it ceases to be a government.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

A person has a painful cancer, a doctor comes and cuts it out, causing pain and a big scar...hmm lets think about suing the doctor aye, he's a monster...

What an awful, awful comparison.

Rockets were being fired into Israel by Hizbollah cells in south Lebanon. Israel stopped this from happening as frequently as it did. Consent? I think you have misunderstood this. Israel did NOT attack Lebanon. The military was not TARGETED. No "operation" was done ON Lebanon. Hezbollah signed the consent forms as soon as they launched the first rocket, "wouldn't you say?"

I'm pretty sure that there are other, more strategic and more beneficial ways of getting rid of these terror cells than launching air strikes against civilian neighbourhoods and such. I guess that you view that differently...

So I suppose you plan on emigrating some time soon and leaving your land to the original tribal owners?

Sure, although once again, that's a pretty awful argument. Also, consider that I'm not part of a massive force that bombards Aboriginal buildings killing thousands of civilians to weed out a few supposed terrorists.

 

[nathan71088]

I'm pretty sure that there are other, more strategic and more beneficial ways of getting rid of these terror cells than launching air strikes against civilian neighbourhoods and such. I guess that you view that differently...

"I'm pretty sure..." Definitely, definitely, you need to get onto the phone and start speaking with the Israeli government. Seriously, although they had a whole army trying to work out the best way to minimise civillian casualties as well as achieving the goal as best as they could, you are "pretty sure that there are other, more strategic and more beneficial ways of getting rid of these terror cells". Please, next time there is a war, make sure there are NO casualties, military or civillian, otherwise there will be a forum about your agression and international irresponsibility.

 

[HotShot]

You're both wrong.


Source.

Just as Israel did the same about the Palestine and the PLO (leaders at the time):-



Source

The PLO achieved nothing - many would questions its recognition of Israel and vice versa. Its basically why they lost the elections and Hamas - there wwas no credibility with the PLO.

I rather vote for someone like Hamas - who will stick to what they say than PLO who will try to achieve everything and yet achieve nothing.

 

[nathan71088]

Originally Posted by Nebuchanezzar - "I'm pretty sure..."

Look, I'm sure your a nice person, but it's hard for anyone to put themself in the situation. Everone would like a peaceful war but this is not possible obviously. Sorry if the message came off a bit mean, it was not intended.

 

[ZabZu]

I find it fascinating how people on the left (especially the far left) support Islamic extremist (terrorist) groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda. These groups are religious fanatics and hence on the conservative side of politics. They are intolerant, racist and unreasonable.

On insight (show on SBS) a few months ago a member of Hezbollah would not participate on the forum (via satellite) because the show was hosting an Israeli government representative (also via satellite). The Hezbollah member later changed his mind but he had conditions.