US teens and gun violence (2 Viewers)

[Xayma]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

yes there is a problem how do you use it? there will be so much discussion on how to use it, it is best not to use it. the president might say lets say blow up vietname, the foreign minister will say no not vietname, lets blow up chicago etc.

so the nuclear missile does not belong to one person.

They had enough such that everyone in the top echelon got to have a play.

 

[BronwynKate]

People need counselling and medication.

They also need enriching social networks/lives.

I appreciate your attempts to clarify the gun laws in the United States.

Xayma, what do you know about American culture? I don't know very much about it.

 

[BronwynKate]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

Davin:

Medication is not approved for children, and the uses for children are generally off-label.

Also, to what extent do you believe a parenting problem becomes a general culture problem? Families are essential to our existence and our sense of wellbeing.

 

[davin]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

its that, while there is a bit of an element of parents trying to get others to do their parenting..... my view is that its a problem within families that while it effects society, isn't caused by society. a subtle difference, but its that its not representative of american culture as a whole, its just a small scattered problem, if that makes sense.

 

[BronwynKate]

Would you consider it a class problem?

Or is it purely an issue of individual responsibility?

To what extent is parental responsibility diminished, if that is in fact what is happening?

 

[davin]

i'd not say its class, especially as many of the areas the spree shootings happen are suburban rather than urban areas. its more just, parents need to parent, and pay attention to if their kids have problems rather than just going straight to medication and then ignoring.

 

[Serius]

Please Davin, it isnt the idea of Psychology to fix everything with drugs, mosto f us are against it. Its the psychiatrists and doctors who default to drugs

But you know what? however hard i try i cant condemn these kids that do the shootings. Its indictative of a serious problem in American[and to be fair its not just america, heaps of western countries have this problem] culture and the whole school heirarchy not to mention a government that ignores how school can adversly affect some kids.

In some ways these shootings are a good thing they are a very serious wakeup call and i think it puts the fuckwit jocks[whose life is based around social status and psychologically destroying others] on edge to know that if they bully and put down the little goth kid, he might come back to school the next day and shoot down all his friends and then kill himself.

Not saying i condone murder, but to a large exstent these kids cant be held responsible as adults, and they are a biproduct, and a forseeable one at that.
What happens when the footballers are given special treatment and the teachers turn a blind eye when they beat up and bully other kids? the other kids learn the harsh reality of the real world that not everything is fair, they might feel they have no escape or somewhere to go and if they are a troubled kid, the only option might be to elliminate their problems, half choose sucide, half choose to kill those that toerment them

Its a wakeup call to school students, treat your peers with respect

 

[BronwynKate]

Yes, it's up to us to identify who may be having trouble with school and help them as best as we can.

Unfortunately the school environment in the First World has some toxic qualities.

I couldn't condemn the shooters either.

Thank you for reminding us that being a 'troubled kid' has potentially serious consequences, and if we are into early intervention, we should take their concerns seriously, preferably before they enter an institutional or group setting in the first place. Davin, you're right about parenting too.

How do you identify the 'troubled kids' without stigmatising them? Or is that not a worry compared to the greater consequences?

This is something everybody can do. If you do one thing to make your own school environment physically, emotionally and mentally nicer for someone else, I think we are well on the way to preventing situations like this.

 

[Serius]

this is a good article:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29298

its about the columnbine shootings, keep in mind its a satire and you need to know a bit of background on the shootings[ put it simply the school had a tradition of physically assulting and ostracizing anyone who didnt conform and those who werent popular]

its pretty much summarises what i think the problem is

 

[BronwynKate]

This article is quite amusing.

Especially with the hyperbolic responses of the jocks and others.

And this is supported - in joke and in real life - by the authorities.

What interest have they in doing this?

 

[Tulipa]

whats absolutely ridiculous about this is that none of you are taking into account the fact that the media and often the authorities turn to the "bullying" theory when looking at school shootings in the USA.

Serius, what do you think you know about the Columbine shootings? did you know that Dylan and Eric wanted it to transcend the idea of a school shooting to be an actual massacre? its not about schools and bullying but the two individuals and their own problems.

think about the real world, bullies are a part of human nature. kids these days are coddled, they need to be introduced to the real world and a part of that is bullying, dealing with the fact that in the real world no one is going to look after these kids.

 

[Serius]

but in the real world you dont get assulted and if you do there are consequences, you dont get your stuff trashed because the people responsable get in trouble, face fines, criminal records. Why is part of the "real world" ostrasizing people and destroying them socially? vicious rumours, gay-hate crimes and racism run rampant. A disturbed and angry indivual isnt born that way[although they may be born with a tendancy to feel emotional pain more, or react stronger] they are created by "popular" fuckwits that get a taste of their own medicine. How does constant harassment = introducing people to the real world?

Bullying wasnt big at my school but some kids got harassed alot more than most, i was bullied an average amount [basically not at all] and maybe that helped me develop reistance to verbal abuse

But then how do you account for those that are constantly abused every day, issolated from their peers, physically assulted...just because they dont fit into whats designed as the norm, because the think creatively, like different music, are better at math, do debating...I thought creativity was valued in this society but bullying undermines that and attempts to squash any sign of dirercity.

I know alot about columbine, more than you do. It was never about a "school shooting" where typically 1 or 2 hated students, possibly a teacher are killed, it was always about elliminating those that made their life hell
"all the jocks stand up and be accountable" sound familar? accountable for what? for their elitest attitudes towards the poor, the smart, the creative, the fat, the stupid, the less attractive and the homosexuals perhaps?

No one deserves to do die but people like this certainly were not innocent victims, this was brought on by the schools social heirachy that they perpetrated


I dont know why you think everyone turned to the bullying theory, as far as my memory serves the media seemed to blame
a) niche violent music like manson [ they didnt even listen to manson but they still listened to rock stuff like ramstein]
b) violent movies [ similar clothing to the matrix]
c) violent video games [ they played doom and quake]
These 3 things were used as scapegoats for the real reason because no one wanted to say the school brought it on itself and no one wanted to change society,

its easier to say there is a problem with an outside factor than to say the problrm lies within ourselves

 

[xeuyrawp]

Ugh, why would such an archaic notion of baring arms still be in their central jurisprudential tenet?! *shakes fist* At least they could be like the Jews and have totally harmless laws about clenliness and such.

I've fired a gun on about 20 different occasions. All of them were on a farm except for one time at cadets.

Another issue apart from their ammendments is that so much of central America is non-urbanised, so a lot of people have the general need for guns. The fact that the 'country' mentality clashes with the 'city' mentality causes, imo, shootings. Whilst you could say that the gun-slinging deer-shooting types of north America (and their counterparts of rattle-snake catchers in the south) are whacky, they seem to grow up with far more respect for weaponry. I think it's just that the central areas have long traditions of guns, and so parenting has grown accustomed to dealing with it.

I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't mind knocking me off, yet I don't feel the need for some sort of fully-automatic weapon to defend myself. I think the gun laws should be tightened over there. The right to bare arms seems to have gone from 'the right to defend myself and my property against anyone (be it the state, an intruder, etc)' to 'the right to own a gun'.

 

[Comrade nathan]

think about the real world, bullies are a part of human nature. kids these days are coddled, they need to be introduced to the real world and a part of that is bullying, dealing with the fact that in the real world no one is going to look after these kids.

You were/are a bully?

 

[davin]

the schools shouldn't be giving preferential treatment, but then again, i was bullied and last i've checked, i've not killed anyone. bullying...is a problem that needs some addressing, and there are issues worth examining there as far as culture goes, but i don't believe that gun violence is a key element of the culture. there's plenty of bullying without shooting sprees following. i think at least some of the kids bullied have issues that are not caused by the bullying that tend to be elements of it. the kids in columbine, for example, had some very big issues far beyond just getting revenge on jocks.

Please Davin, it isnt the idea of Psychology to fix everything with drugs, mosto f us are against it. Its the psychiatrists and doctors who default to drugs

no, i just meant that i think there is a problem with doctors, and lesser extent parents, to clasify stuff not as the kid just misbehaving or such as some sort of mental disorder one should just give pills to fix. sometimes that is a part of fixing a problem, but not always, and not when one addresses other problems.

The right to bare arms seems to have gone from 'the right to defend myself and my property against anyone (be it the state, an intruder, etc)' to 'the right to own a gun'.

well, how exactly do you differentiate between the two?

 

[HotShot]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

They had enough such that everyone in the top echelon got to have a play.

hmmm....

hah, a nuclear missile alone wont be enough, you need a bomber to carrry it over, but the bomber is under the pilot's control and he probably has better ideas/

 

[davin]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

no you don't. missles are fired on targets. they're not the same thing as a bomb, which is (in this sort of circumstance) just dropped on a target from a height. missles don't need bombers.

 

[Tulipa]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

I know alot about columbine, more than you do. It was never about a "school shooting" where typically 1 or 2 hated students, possibly a teacher are killed, it was always about elliminating those that made their life hell
"all the jocks stand up and be accountable" sound familar? accountable for what? for their elitest attitudes towards the poor, the smart, the creative, the fat, the stupid, the less attractive and the homosexuals perhaps?

oh really? it wasn't about eliminating anyone in particular, they planned to bomb out the cafeteria sending everyone fleeing then planned to pick off the survivors as they streamed out of the school. it wasn't about "who made their lives hell" it was about killing as many people as possible. trust me, i've read a lot on columbine and other high school shootings in the states.

since the media jumped on the idea that the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were "bullied", "goths" and loners they have often applied that same idea to other school shootings. its just a common excuse.

 

[BronwynKate]

PwarYuex, I appreciate the difference between owning a gun for self-defence and owning a gun just because or to shoot a human being who wasn't hurting you in the first place.

Bullying may have been one reason but it was not the whole reason. I agree that the perputrators have larger issues.

But bullying itself is a big deal.

Even if you haven't been bullied much, if you don't complain, you're silently condoning it and creating more victims.

Better to create a school climate where people are treated with tolerance and respect.

I agree we could do better distinguishing between misbehaviour and mental disorder. Some things we take as ordinary misbehaviour are outcomes of a disability someone may be suffering. Why do we not take that into account? I agree it is difficult to observe if you haven't the experience or the background. But if you have a disability or if you're the parent of a child with a disability, you feel solidarity more than anything else.

I hope you are not holding attitudes which could lead to harm or killing. That is as bad as if you had done anything. Remember the Buddhist (and most religions and philosophies follow a version of this, but Buddhism is especially uncompromising and striking, for example compared to Christianity and Judaism) principle of compassion. A true Buddhist would never hurt a fly, much less another human being.

I still value creativity and imagination because they help people feel more compassion for their fellow man and they help people to value life and other people more.

That's what it's all about. The value of life or the violation of that value.

We are all responsible. And we shouldn't just complain - we should try to change the situation for the better. We should look after our fellow man and woman more, because we are all brothers and sisters.

Remember Montaigne: "Nothing human is foreign to me." These are wise words and I try to live by the moral code it stands for.

 

[HotShot]

Re: wtf is wrong with american kids

no you don't. missles are fired on targets. they're not the same thing as a bomb, which is (in this sort of circumstance) just dropped on a target from a height. missles don't need bombers.

but they have limited range... and you need the technicians to control the missile to its target.. so then they will have conflicting choice of target.