Accounting Cadetships (2 Viewers)

[mr_shittles]

2. Not all work experience is equal. Ask the coop guy what work he gets to do- then ask a first year undergrad.

I'm a co-op guy . . . a typical week at work would include:

1. Writing commentary for our monthly Board Report, a report which is distributed to the directors of the company.

2. Examining broker reports to determine the consensus profit forecast for the company that I work for and how that forecast was arrived at. Then comparing the broker forecasts with internal forecasts and managing market expectations accordingly. The latter function is handled by the investor relations team.

3. A technical accounting project involving stuctured finance transactions, where simeltaneous loans and borrowings are undertaken to and from foreign banks with a view to lowering our borrowing costs. My involvement was in determining the tax jurisdictions for the various entities and how the tax accruals would be recorded in the balance sheet.

I have to say, our work is always different, and very much challenging. One of the reasons co-ops get more interesting work, and undergrads get the photocopying duties is because employers demand more out of co-ops. The selection process for co-op ensures that the calibre of students that you get is always of the highest quality, and more often than not, by working in multiple organisations, they have greater exposure and greater ability to do both technical and strategic work.

I'm a UNSW Co-op and I get the opportunity to work with co-ops, both UNSW and UTS, at the company in which I am at. One of the reasons co-ops tend not to pursue a career at a big4 firm, particularly in audit, is that the work is low-level, menial and non-strategic. Co-ops on the other hand get to deal with individuals higher up in an organisation, and aren't just box-tickers and photocopy assistants.

 

[seremify007]

Not in the mood to reply but in short

1. Haven't had any box ticking / photocopying yet

2. Coops are much much cheaper to send out to a client as opposed to an undergrad.

And based on your post, you make it sound as if cadets/undergrads aren't of a high quality calibre? Are you also saying that our respective organisations/firms don't expect as much of us as they do from the coops? You also make it sound as if we don't deal with individuals "higher up in an organisation". That is wrong on so many levels.

I'll put it this way though- I've been assigned a coop student. He's a good bloke but when it comes to figuring out what it is we can give him to do... it's very difficult because he hasn't had the training which we've had.

EDIT: To all coop's credit though, the rotation/work experience at various firms/companies is definitely a plus. Sure you never get to settle in too deep, but you do get a quick taste of the action and a glimpse of the culture at various places which for someone who isn't sure they want to dedicate themselves to a particular profession/specialisation, is definitely a good thing.

 

[turtleface]

One of the reasons co-ops tend not to pursue a career at a big4 firm, particularly in audit, is that the work is low-level, menial and non-strategic. Co-ops on the other hand get to deal with individuals higher up in an organisation, and aren't just box-tickers and photocopy assistants.

you gotta be kidding. I'm sorry but you don't seem the type that actually understands what goes on in an audit. Very few people do, only really the engagement partners and review partners.

audit is low level work?
Its one of the few business sector jobs that actually require registration with ASIC, at least 3 years of accounting and 2 years of Corporate law (or equivalent) and also face the CALDB disciplinary board.

Its also one of the few jobs where law actually requires good quality fit and proper professionals to occupy.

menial?
Maybe. But honestly, what do you expect at uni student level. I doubt they'll let you go report to directors about contraventions of insolvent trading provisions.
What job isn't menial at low levels? I can't think of anything. Porn star maybe.

Non strategic?
I'd say constantly trying to improve processes and controls are strategic. The thing about audit is that a lot of what goes on never reaches the final report. Most of the issues found are reported to directors and rectified by the company, and auditors work very closely to improve the accountability

box tickers?
At least we're not box movers (ok I was...)
But seriously, box ticking is yet another stereotype. Since when does anyone tick boxes? For what? I think you're talking about the food safety auditors that go around to restaurants and stuff to check for violatons of food safety laws

 

[mr_shittles]

2. Coops are much much cheaper to send out to a client as opposed to an undergrad.

Yeah, true . . . co-ops cost a firm less than a undergrad.

And based on your post, you make it sound as if cadets/undergrads aren't of a high quality calibre?

Well, I never said that, but most of them aren't of the same calibre as co-ops.

Are you also saying that our respective organisations/firms don't expect as much of us as they do from the coops? You also make it sound as if we don't deal with individuals "higher up in an organisation". That is wrong on so many levels.

I don't know any undergrads that deal with CFOs/EGMs, other than giving them the odd printout and leaving it on their desk.

I'll put it this way though- I've been assigned a coop student. He's a good bloke but when it comes to figuring out what it is we can give him to do... it's very difficult because he hasn't had the training which we've had.

I'm sure the BAcc posted to your division won't be too happy to hear that he isn't highly valued.

 

[ishq]

No he won't.
I'll let him know your thinking Jeff.

 

[ishq]

Im 90% they actually would take you. If you look closely. BTax actually complies with CPA and CA, so you should be fine.

Actually, most of the firms have a list of courses that they want their potential cadets to choose from. And the course is usually Commerce with a major in Accounting. B Tax isnt one of them as far I remember.

 

[Jengo Fett]

Seremify

I hate to break it to you mate, but there is little if any respect for your auditing arse.

Kind Regards

Jengo

 

[Meads]

I am not going to take sides here...no interest in getting involved in such a petty argument...

However I will offer a perspective from some partners at PwC (was told at interviews)

"Co-ops have the brains...but shit they are boring as bat shit!"

In other words, undergrads/trainees are the other way around. lol.

 

[Jengo Fett]

If you had met any of the cadets you wouldnt believe that statement, they are all nerdy asians who get excited at the prospect of a cash flow statement.

I would like to see a rap off between bacc and cadets, but it would have to be before 7.00pm becuase they have to get back for kumon.

 

[mr_shittles]

I am not going to take sides here...no interest in getting involved in such a petty argument...

However I will offer a perspective from some partners at PwC (was told at interviews)

"Co-ops have the brains...but shit they are boring as bat shit!"

In other words, undergrads/trainees are the other way around. lol.

Yeah, that statement is spot on the mark . . . co-ops are soooooooooo boring . . . even more boring than "bat shit."

Man, I reckon the partners that told you that were much too cool for us co-ops. Those partners, they prolly get up to some LOUD shit on weekends . . . like organising these massive piss ups at kumon for their future recruits, and signing these badass audits, where the clients use "creative accounting" and other wild shit. . . and they don't teach that stuff at kumon, so that makes it twice as badass.

These rebels prolly got CVs full of extracurricular activities . . . extracurricular being anything not taught in the office or at kumon. So I guess everytime they read a book about Enron or the history of the Tax Act, they put it down onto their burgeoning list of extracurriculars.

And if they were really good enough . . . they'd be a media celebrity . . . walking into the office and the disciples going "Like OMG, I saw that dude on TV . . . in that really cool H&R block ad."

Now that's something hard to top! So I guess compared to these partners, co-ops really must be like ten times more boring that "bat shit" . . . and that's comming from a co-op.

 

[seremify007]

I'm sure the BAcc posted to your division won't be too happy to hear that he isn't highly valued.

LOL I didn't say he isn't highly valued, but rather, it isn't busy season, and whilst we will be teaching him as much as we can on the job- he did miss out on the audit training which the rest of us (including the UNSW coop guy who you're friends with) had.

EDIT: Just thought I'd add this in, he is in a unique situation because usually the coop students do audit training with the other new starters, but because he transferred from another LoS altogether, he's in a much more challenging position. Regardless of this, he's booked on a client with me so we'll see how things go

Seremify

I hate to break it to you mate, but there is little if any respect for your auditing arse.

Kind Regards

Jengo

Oh snap.

If you had met any of the cadets you wouldnt believe that statement, they are all nerdy asians who get excited at the prospect of a cash flow statement.

I would like to see a rap off between bacc and cadets, but it would have to be before 7.00pm becuase they have to get back for kumon.

...?

Yeah, that statement is spot on the mark . . . co-ops are soooooooooo boring . . . even more boring than "bat shit."

Man, I reckon the partners that told you that were much too cool for us co-ops. Those partners, they prolly get up to some LOUD shit on weekends . . . like organising these massive piss ups at kumon for their future recruits, and signing these badass audits, where the clients use "creative accounting" and other wild shit. . . and they don't teach that stuff at kumon, so that makes it twice as badass.

These rebels prolly got CVs full of extracurricular activities . . . extracurricular being anything not taught in the office or at kumon. So I guess everytime they read a book about Enron or the history of the Tax Act, they put it down onto their burgeoning list of extracurriculars.

And if they were really good enough . . . they'd be a media celebrity . . . walking into the office and the disciples going "Like OMG, I saw that dude on TV . . . in that really cool H&R block ad."

Now that's something hard to top! So I guess compared to these partners, co-ops really must be like ten times more boring that "bat shit" . . . and that's comming from a co-op.

...? again. Not even sure why you're in this thread slogging cadetships when you're from coop anyway.

 

[turtleface]

Yeah, that statement is spot on the mark . . . co-ops are soooooooooo boring . . . even more boring than "bat shit."

Man, I reckon the partners that told you that were much too cool for us co-ops. Those partners, they prolly get up to some LOUD shit on weekends . . . like organising these massive piss ups at kumon for their future recruits, and signing these badass audits, where the clients use "creative accounting" and other wild shit. . . and they don't teach that stuff at kumon, so that makes it twice as badass.

These rebels prolly got CVs full of extracurricular activities . . . extracurricular being anything not taught in the office or at kumon. So I guess everytime they read a book about Enron or the history of the Tax Act, they put it down onto their burgeoning list of extracurriculars.

And if they were really good enough . . . they'd be a media celebrity . . . walking into the office and the disciples going "Like OMG, I saw that dude on TV . . . in that really cool H&R block ad."

Now that's something hard to top! So I guess compared to these partners, co-ops really must be like ten times more boring that "bat shit" . . . and that's comming from a co-op.

this boringness competition is pretty petty. that PwC partner may just be a twat but s/he does earn like 200 times more than most of us, im sure s/he can purchase some fun

And if they were really good enough . . . they'd be a media celebrity . . . walking into the office and the disciples going "Like OMG, I saw that dude on TV . . . in that really cool H&R block ad."

i heard from H&R block workers that go to uni with me that most (if not all) H&R block tax return consultants aren't accountants. usually (if anyone is) only the owner of the office/franchisee is.

 

[seremify007]

Btw mr_shittles, I think this "debate" of coop vs. cadetship is getting a bit out of hand and a tad immature so I'm dropping it- it's also not any help to people actually asking about cadetships.

 

[mr_shittles]

Btw mr_shittles, I think this "debate" of coop vs. cadetship is getting a bit out of hand and a tad immature so I'm dropping it- it's also not any help to people actually asking about cadetships.

C'mon guys, have a sense of humour . . . I guess what that debate proved is that generalisations aren't particularly useful when trying to make an informed decision. I think that co-ops and cadets have pretty diverging views on one another and what's better and what's not better . . . pros and cons.

And I didn't bring up the issue of co-op on this thread as a couple of people have suggested, I just came in to clarify an opinion someone had formed on the value of co-op experience vs. cadet experience.

 

[joe_rulez37]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but doesn't an accounting cadetship limit your choices in the future? To decide to major in accounting when you don't know what it's like is quite risky, isn't it? Or perhaps i'm just missing something completely here?

In addition, with accounting as a career in general, is it one of those jobs that has a "glass ceiling"? What I mean is like... it can't progress as far as other areas in B Commerce, such as Finance.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of my points.

 

[Raginsheep]

Alot of executives have an accounting background.

 

[mr_shittles]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but doesn't an accounting cadetship limit your choices in the future? To decide to major in accounting when you don't know what it's like is quite risky, isn't it? Or perhaps i'm just missing something completely here?

In addition, with accounting as a career in general, is it one of those jobs that has a "glass ceiling"? What I mean is like... it can't progress as far as other areas in B Commerce, such as Finance.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of my points.

I'll leave out the cadetships component of the question, because I know how much serimify wants to answer that one!

Off the top of my head, I think virtually all accounting firms let you do a double major . . . and if you're doping your BCom at UNSW then I know for a fact it doesn't matter where you work, you can do a double major. Whether or not you do double major is more a condition of the degree program as opposed to the firm that you work for.

A major in accounting doesn't neccessarily mean that you'll go into a career in audit. Accounting is very broad and there are many different areas: audit, tax, management accounting, stautory reporting, etc.

Most business administrators (ie. CEOs, CFOs, comapny Chairmen) have accounting backgrounds, so doing a CA now means more than just going out and doing audit, and likewise CPA doesn't neccessarily restrict your career path to cost & management accounting.

In terms of "glass ceiling" . . . of all the fields in Commerce, accounting is the one area that suffers least from the "glass ceiling" problem. I think in investment banking, since the pyramid is so steep to get to the vice-president/executive director level is much harder than getting to the principal/director level, and likewise when for managing directors vs. partners.

 

[turtleface]

In addition, with accounting as a career in general, is it one of those jobs that has a "glass ceiling"? What I mean is like... it can't progress as far as other areas in B Commerce, such as Finance.

Well considering 85% of CFOs/FDs of ASX200 companies in Australia are from an Accounting background, not a pure Finance background, I'd say its the opposite, and there are more CEOs directors from an accounting background than from any specific other background for Australia's top companies...

The confusion exists because once an Accountant progresses beyond "accountant" level they usually gain titles like "Finance Manager" and "Finance Director" and "Financial Controller" so many people think they are from a "Finance" background

Similar situations exist in other countries too

The exception would be in the U.S. only, where a MBA (in Finance probably) would probably be a tad better than the CPA, but only because it's the MBA and most accountants are notorious for not being stuffed to get a MBA cause they have a CPA, even though it helps their career heaps. (Since only 35% or so of Fortune 500 companies CFOs have a CPA, whereas about 60% have a MBA) This is cause in the U.S., the CFO role is more general management/strategic than technical, so a MBA is often more highly valued than a CPA. Still, 35% being CPAs ain't bad, and thats not including Accountants from non CPA backgrounds.

 

[turtleface]

I stand by this comment:

There is no job in Finance that a single major in Accounting cannot get you into.

However, you cannot get into an accounting job with a Finance major only


by "finance" job I mean fund management, broking, banking etc.

 

[ND]

I stand by this comment:

There is no job in Finance that a single major in Accounting cannot get you into.

However, you cannot get into an accounting job with a Finance major only


by "finance" job I mean fund management, broking, banking etc.

Haven't we already gone through this? Last time we discussed it you agreed (or should i say condeded) that an accounting background will get you nowhere in quant finance or trading.

It's also alot harder to get into IM, IB etc with an accounting degree than with a commerce/finance/maths degree.

Also, please don't go pulling up examples of 50 yr old fund managers with CA qualifications again, because times have changed. Lou Ranieri moved from the mailroom to the head of the mortgage division in Salomon Brothers (the then top fixed income trading bank on Wall St) in the 80's - could this happen today? Not a chance.