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Appeasement (2 Viewers)

ms.cinderella

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how long will your teacher be gone for??!
poor thing.. well, i wont be much help.. we've only just started.. just learning the background info... and it's not interesting me atm... it's such a modern topic! *sigh*.. i'm an ancienter, if u couldnt tell..
good luck! =)
 

Nerissa

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Originally posted by ms.cinderella
how long will your teacher be gone for??!
poor thing.. well, i wont be much help.. we've only just started.. just learning the background info... and it's not interesting me atm... it's such a modern topic! *sigh*.. i'm an ancienter, if u couldnt tell..
good luck! =)
Oh my gosh, I am in exactly the same boat! I do Ancient, love it, am coming 1st out of 60 people and want to top the State in it. So of course, because I am so passionate about history, I decide to take the History Ext. course...and discover that I am the only girl doing Ancient in the class and that we are studying a modern topic, Appeasement. Everyone else finds it so easy to understand, as they already have the background about German society in the late 19th and early 20th century and the two World Wars...I had to struggle and do heaps of extra reading, and only now am I beginning to get it. And our teacher is so hopeless...she just told us the HISTORY of appeasement and said absolutely nothing about the HISTORIOGRAPHY...Hey MS. CINDERELLA (by the way, cool name), want to swap notes? When you're finished, I mean...PM me or simply reply on the board if you're interested. Love to hear from you, if only to chat about Ancient. What options are you doing? (Ooops, better not get too off topic...) Luv ya'll!
 

Barb

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hey Angel
oh man, i'm trying to read AJP Taylor and it is SO boring! i got some sort of summary from just searching google:
A. J. P. Taylor wrote his book Origins of the Second World War in 1961



argued war not unique
not caused by rival ideologies of fascism and communism and liberalism
nor "good" great ideals vs. "bad" evil Hitler
nor any blueprint for world conquest by Hitler

rather, it was blunders, opportunism, traditional balance of power

"human blunders shape history more than human wickedness"

Hitler was a "traditional European statesman" seeking to restore Germany

he "simply leaned on the door hoping to gain entrance and the whole house fell in"

Hitler's anti-Semitism not unique - took advantage of mood throughout Europe
Germany was the dynamic element in European politics since 1870s

growing, expanding since Bismarck

Article 231 was correct to blame Germany for WWI

Hitler's revanchism had much support in Germany
Hitler & Mussolini responded to actions of others - no one in control, no plot


Poland from ILN 1939/05/06

France and England pursued own national interests

Benes in Czech lured Sudeten Germans, had "canker in her heart"

Poland weak, corrupt, elitist - an artificial creation of the Big 4

U.S. totally isolationistic - abrogated responsibility of Article 10

Stalin sought security from invasion - alliance with France

Taylor thesis is narrow and deterministic

2nd war inevitably caused by 1st war

crisis of 1939 was simply the "war for Danzig" to East Prussia

German nationalism was the driving force - "Anschluss"
Taylor neglected variety of causes

economic, ideological, multinational

harsh reparations of Articles 232-235, Great Depression, trade imbalance

real threat of spread of communism east and west

multinational failure to make League of Nations work




Alan John Percivale Taylor was born March 25, 1906, Birkdale, Lancashire, and died Sept. 7, 1990, in London. He is regarded as one of the most important British historians of the 20th century.

"Taylor attended Oriel College, Oxford, graduating with first-class honours in 1927. In 1931 he began writing reviews and essays for the Manchester Guardian (later The Guardian). He continued his studies in history, and in 1934 his first book, The Italian Problem in European Diplomacy 1847-1849, was published. A second book on diplomacy, Germany's First Bid for Colonies 1884-1885: A Move in Bismarck's European Policy, appeared in 1938. Taylor was a tutor in modern history at Magdalen College, Oxford, from 1938 to 1963 and a research fellow there until 1976. He became a panel member of a BBC-TV news analysis program in 1950 and made regular television appearances thereafter. He was also popular as a journalist and lecturer. Though often sparking controversy with his unorthodox views, Taylor nonetheless maintained high standards of scholarship. Among his more than 30 publications are The Struggle for Mastery in Europe 1848-1918 (1954; published as volume 1 of The Oxford History of Modern Europe) and English History 1914-1945 (1965). His most widely read and controversial book was The Origins of the Second World War (1961), in which he maintained that the war erupted because Great Britain and France vacillated between policies of appeasement and resistance toward Adolf Hitler. Taylor's autobiography, A Personal History, was published in 1983." (from EB)

Taylor has been used by the Holocaust revisionists, such as IHR but he was never this kind of revisionist, and never denied the reality of the Holocaust. He at one time praised the scholarship of the notorious David Irving, but he never endorsed the bogus Hitler Diaries or Irving's anti-Holocaust arguments. Taylor practiced a legitimate revisionism that is found in every field of history. Similar revisionists included Daniel J. Goldhagen who has argued that a deep-rooted anti-Semitism in Germany caused the Holocaust, not just Hitler and the Nazi party. Herbert Bix has challenged the traditional interpretation of Hirohito as a passive, remote figure-head, and has instead argued that the emperor was an active supporter of war policies.



References:

Bix, Herbert P. Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan. New York: HarperCollins, 2000

Goldhagen, Daniel J. Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust. NY: Knopf, 1996.

Taylor, A. J. P. The Origins of the Second World War. Middlesex: Penguin Books,1961.

if that helps anyone. its certainly easier than reading that boring boring book. i do ancient and modern and i love both, but this case study is driving me insane. any more ideas anyone?
 

silvermoon

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thanx babs, ur totally right, the book is pretty boring. i mean, some parts have interesting ideas, but he gets to caught up in explaining things with metaphors etc. - i forget what im reading! *sighs* should have picked modern after all huh?
 

Sarah168

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ohhhh you get to do the appeasement! how luuuuucky!

:(

Maybe asking the modern history teacher at your school might help...Ian Kershaw is a good name to look up in relation to both Germany and Hitler (umm and hence the appeasement :p 0

God, I'm so jealous [we need a green smiley]
 

silvermoon

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hmmm, wish Saj'd give us a list or some sort of direction as to what other ppl we should be lookin up. i mean, sayin 'Churchill's memoirs aren't so good coz everybody does them, u'll need 2 consider branching out' isnt much good! well, maybe 3 the modern ppl! but not for us ancienters! oh, its so unfair, they know so much more!!! i mean, as if AJP Taylor isn't boring enough by himself, then there's the fact that ive got 2 read everything like twice 2 make sure that i understand the situations! is really hard 2 tell when hes giving unorthodox opinions if u dont know the orthodox ones! hmmm, mayb should go browse modern forum and see if there's anything in there...
 

laracroft

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yea whose cato??? im so unsure about AJP Taylor, his wokr is so indepth, ot sure how to really approach it....
 

Barb

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if it makes you feel any better, it doesn't make any more sense for having done modern. in fact, it's even worse, because it should make more sense.
eep! i promised sheki i'd do this summary and she's doing the historians one and then trading me. so now i have to actually understand it...uhoh...
 

Vuki

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CATO is Michael Foot, Frank Owen and Peter Howard. They conceived 'Guilty Men' on 31 May 1940. Written on 4th of June and published 5th of June. It's sort of what Tuchman calls the "axe-grinders", or those who capitalise on high public interest to make some money :).

The only link I can find between WHY they called it CATO and their names (i have no idea really), the third letter of the first name of each author - miChael, frAnk, peTer....then they added the O because CAT sounded stupid? No idea really, that's for someone to find out.

Thank god our teacher has summarised and quotes CATO - Guilty Men, Gilbert - The Appeasers, Churchill - The Gathering Storm and of course AJP Taylor - The Origins of the Second World War (and sorted them all into the appropriate ares of debate). All we have to do is memorise it and later on add Richard Ovary's (I think that's it) stuff into the debates.
 

Vuki

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Oh and Lara: You really don't have to read the whole thing. If you think about it, you're writing a 45-50 minute essay (assuming you read the article for 10-15 minutes like the history teacher's journal suggests). Start off by reading "Second Thoughts" the foreword to his book, then try and get a few pertinent quotes. But most importantly make sure you memorise the wording of the areas of the debate, the historians VIEW of three debates (they can't ask you to write about 4, so learnign 3 in detail is better than learning 5 in general), and one or two quotes.
 

silvermoon

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ur so lucky Vuki - all we did in class was 2 discuss AJP taylor's book. and even then, it was mostly class discussion and we had 2 work out all the important things and which point/argument they best fit into. all other research weve had 2 do independantly - which really sux. god, wish i had ur teacher!
 

veridis

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Vuki said:
The only link I can find between WHY they called it CATO and their names (i have no idea really), the third letter of the first name of each author - miChael, frAnk, peTer....then they added the O because CAT sounded stupid? No idea really, that's for someone to find out.
half posting just to bump this thread, nice info up above
but Cato was used after Cato the younger, one of the main resistors to Julius Caesars rise. dissapointed the ancienters complaining so much in this thread didnt pick that up =)
 

silvermoon

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lol, never thought id see this thread again! haha, yes, the ancienters...*sigh*...god bless ancient. we didnt pick it up because we knew nothing about them or "guilty men" at that point, so it would have been pure speculation
 

Mahogany

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Yet another merewether brat popping up here..... I don't get history extension at all! I do ancient, and I'm stuck with Saj who insists on doing appeasement, despite medieval options being available so that the whole class is on even grounds. AJP Taylor's book put me to sleep in the first chapter or two so I've barely touched it since and not even in the class discussions could I get my head around things. Anyone able to offer help? I have my trial for it in a week and I'm starting to panic....
 

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