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Barrister Work Experience Report. (1 Viewer)

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xeuyrawp

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Heya all,
As I've been constantly saying, I've been having, and continue to have work experience with a legal team. Specifically, the Senior Counsel who is advocating in a insurance contract avoidance claim.

Would it interest anyone if I posted up some sort of report? I'll post up observations I make, the whereabouts of the case, answers to questions, etc.

If you're interested, I'll write today's and yesterday's tonight, but if it's falling on deaf ears, I'm not going to be bothered. :D
 

Frigid

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remember, no identifying particulars :)
 
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xeuyrawp

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Frigid said:
remember, no identifying particulars :)
Of course:D

Edit:

Frigid- Can I ask you to edit it quickly after I post? Since I haven't done law subjects yet, I don't know all the terms etc.
 
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MoonlightSonata

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PwarYuex said:
Heya all,
As I've been constantly saying, I've been having, and continue to have work experience with a legal team. Specifically, the Senior Counsel who is advocating in a insurance contract avoidance claim.

Would it interest anyone if I posted up some sort of report? I'll post up observations I make, the whereabouts of the case, answers to questions, etc.

If you're interested, I'll write today's and yesterday's tonight, but if it's falling on deaf ears, I'm not going to be bothered. :D
I would find it most interesting :)
 
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xeuyrawp

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MoonlightSonata said:
I would find it most interesting :)
Hot potato. I'm doing it now. It's really got no structure... As soon as I make headings, and make the story linear, I'll lose good pieces of info.

Also, if any of you criticise my spelling, grammar, or legal terms, you're going down:p
 
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xeuyrawp

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MoonlightSonata said:
I would find it most interesting :)
OMG! go the orange!

Yes, I haven't finished yet... I've had dinner and watched TV. Tune back in by 9:30ish..
 
X

xeuyrawp

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This sucks so much, but I'm very tired. It's part one of Monday. Part two of monday is now in production:)

Day one, Monday 4th July:

Rob was late. Important things always start out like this. "Be at my chambers at 9:00," he (John SC) said. He's in 13th Selbourne Chambers. I got to the city at 9:15. Couldn't remember where the chambers were, as I was in a rush and all flustered, but I knew once I'd walk up to Hyde Park. I was on Elizabeth street, and went left towards the chambers. I get there, the clerk says he's gone to court in the Madison Building at corner of Goulburn and Elizabeth street. Walk all the way down Liz street past hyde park.

I get up to the floor and find John talking to the opposing Barrister. In the Madison building, there are 4 courtrooms in the corners of each level, with six small rooms between them. The courtrooms have the bench, with the one judge (it's a district court) a clerk lady, and a person in charge of the recordings, the bar table, and seats for about 30 people. The judges enter from the front of the court, with having their own hallways and lifts.

Anyway, I find John talking to the opposing Barrister. They are very serious, yet are comfortably talking. From the outset, this is my observation of the Bar: Although barristers argue and do get passionate against each other, they maintain an excellent working relationship. "Servants of all yet of none" (their motto) is true to the fact that they work in a community, yet are constantly working for different clients, appear infront of different judges, work with different solicitors, and (most importantly) work with opposing Barristers.

This is an interesting point- x barrister will know y's argument, his evidence and his objections before entering the court room. I know I'm jumping around, but I'll type as things come to mind. If x barrister is a silk, ie he has become a Senior Counsel, he refers to barrister y (a non-silk) as "my friend". Conversely, y refers to x as "my learned friend". I assume if they're both silks, they both say "my friend" or "learned friend". This shows the strength of the relationship between barristers- not only do they have a legal obligation to forward arguments before the trial, but it's a common courtesy. By not preparing one's friend, you put him in a bad position.

I suppose this is why our court system is different (read: neither better nor worse) to the Americans. A large theatric is part of the American system, and although it encourages sharp mindset to object at an advantageous time, Australia seems to promote "getting to the truth". I'd heard that Barristers were not allowed to lie in court, but I thought it was just "a rule".

After seeing the mess (about 2 minutes of dialogue) between the Judge, John, and the other barrister, when a barrister accidentally lies, I'd hate to see what happens if a Barrister gets caught out in a lie. John said that this rarely happens as it's basically an automatic destroyal of one's career.

Continuing with the story- although John and other barrister were serious and formal, they were practical- "mate" seeing to be the out-of-court equivalent to "my friend". This contrasts with the in-court appearance of formalities and the Barristers having to be terribly specific, precise, and not at all ambiguous. Not to mention having to constantly remind the world that "His Honour" decides the matter.

Like I said, I arrived latish, but thankfully the District Courts start at 10. I met with John, and he explained the case:

- The client had applied and been accepted for income protection insurance,
- On the form, he lied about not having sleep apnoea, about his weight/height, and about the nature of his work. Probably to reduce the waiting period, the chance of rejection, and the premium. By lied about not having sleep apnoea, I mean he didn’t include it in his application for insurance when he knew about it,
- He injured himself, badly, at home. He couldn’t work, and claimed insurance. If you’re wondering, I met the person in question, and he genuinely injured himself,
- After inspecting the claim, the company came to the correct conclusion that the client (the plaintiff) should have disclosed his knowledge of sleep apnoea,
- After this point, the claim was rejected on the grounds of disclosure of his sleep apnoea,
- A few months later, the company also wrote a letter saying that not only because of sleep apnoea, but also weight, height, and nature of work meant that he had no hope of claiming,
- Insurance law (haha, this is great, I know the number, but not the name or any other particulars) Section 29 says that although it’s bad not to disclose info, an avoidance of the contract (a rejection made by the company) can only be made if the non-disclosed info would not have affected the initial application process, to which there are a number of criteria.
- The matter was made worse by the company in question to be a jerk to the plaintiff. Yes, he was in the wrong, yes he knows it. Fortunately for John (representing the plaintiff), the company’s half-assed job of evidence and handling of the notice of avoidance meant that there was a case:
- Sleep apnoea, measured on a table of how many times a patient stops breathing in a 9-hour night (<20 all the way to 2000ish), on a scale of less than 20, has no consequence on an application of insurance. This is because 20 times or less in one night has been proven to have little effect on risk. The client was under this number after having done numerous tests, yet he still remains at fault due to not disclosing it. Fortunately, when it comes to cancelling the claim, all the company can do is find something more important, although they can easily not issue him with another policy. The reasons for cancelling the claim must be given once in writing; all reasons found thereafter are invalid. The opposing team ignored this by trying to bring into the height/weight/nature of work matters.
 

Frigid

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that's very good. i would like to hear more ^.^
 
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xeuyrawp

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Day 1.5

So we get in court.

Unfortunately, I can't describe the proceedings in so much as to describe detail.

The district court, at this time of the year, isn't very busy. Hence, when I got there at 9:40ish, we were expecting a later start. A lot of judges are on holidays. We get a notice at about 2:00 that a judge will take the case. Up til that point, the solicitors and the barristers talked in their own rooms.

I noticed that solicitors are treated like crap by the barristers. The solicitor that I met had with him a junior who seemed more competent than he. He was a real slimy piece of work- couldn't answer a question, knew the family, and told the family that they should expect far more money than was possible.

I was in one of the little interview rooms with John and his assistant (Simon). The solicitors of the plaintiff walk in, I get ready to stand up and John says "they can stand". Not only "can they stand", but "they can get coffee", "they can shuttup", and "they are really barristers without the ability to write, speak, answer questions, or judiciously use after shave".

Anyway, the defendant's barristers seemed to have the same attitude, and I am told it's like across the bar. When the defendant's legal team came to talk to the plaintiff's, the solicitors never said anything. Furthermore, the barristers tend to speak differently. The word "blunt" comes to mind, which pleases me. "Please, you're not answering the question" was a frequent phrase coming from John.

The judge walks in from the front of the room; his assistant warns everybody with two knocks on the door, we stand, he bows, we bow, we all sit.

I think the defendant's barrister constantly introduces everybody, and at the outset of the case (and the subsequent appearance of witnesses), he makes a short intro.

The real introduction, an argument, is made by the plaintiff's barrister. John stood up and generally states the facts. He refers to the integral law and gets the judge familiar with the law- section 29, and he and the other barrister try to explain it to the judge. There is minor argument here, but it seems to be mostly objective.

At this point, the defendant outlines his argument. The judge asks questions from both of them. The said judge was a very, very practical man. "So, you're arguing X" was said by him a few times just to clarify. I think in the district courts, judges have no time for bullshit. Waffle was cut out by the judge saying "get to your point, counsel", which is good, IMO.

After the defendant's introductory argument, the affidavits of the witnesses to be called are examined. An affidavit is, I believe, a submission made to the court by a witness which outlines his particular part. An affidavit can be made by witnesses not needed to be cross examined and examined (say the case was too large), but in this particular case, there were four witnesses and four affidavits. These had to be altered and/or clarified before the actual witnesses were to appear on Tuesday- I guess it had to be certain what was being said and how. Semantics are important in cases, it seems.

After all the affidavits were gone through, changes were made. The judge was crossing out and editing bits as we went along, I guess he had some homework to do.

This took around two hours, between the introduction of both parties, the clarifying and presentation of arguments, and the looking at the affidavits. By this time, it was 4PM, at which point the court closes.

It was interesting to note that the judge was flexible. We did finish a bit past 4, and he was practical in that he wanted to get all the evidence and arguments sorted prior to the case.

Since I'm interested in the bar, this is what stood out to me: all the barristers were enormously nice. By nice, I mean they were always willing to chat, and were totally blunt. I like blunt.

In anycase, I decided (for my own curiosity and for everybody here's benefit) to ask THE question: In terms of coming to the bar, what is your view of different law schools, prestige, and the "old boys club".

I asked this to John, Simon, the opposing barrister, and to this random barrister that I had a coffee with.

John is now an SC and is enormously respected. He actually went from high school to do an internship in a little law firm. Whilst there, he did a part-time course in law. Similar to the Diploma in Law, although it gives him no qualifications whatsoever. He just sat the Legal Practitioners' Exam, and then the Bar exam, and he's where he's at. He says that there is one thing when considering a law school: do you like the university. "I'll put this another way, Rob. You like Ancient History and want to be a barrister. If you didn't want to be a barrister, where would you do ancient history? That's where you do law".

Simon has been at the bar for 6 years, although was a solicitor for many more. He's about John's age (at the bar for 27 years), so I'd say was a solicitor for at least 20 years. He did modern history at macquarie and then graduate law at sydney. He said that law there was fantastic, and he appreciates that he got to do modern at maquarie, although he got a job with a firm whilst at macquarie. He said that the prestige thing is only if you want to jump through the hoops of the big firms. As a barrister, he said, the law schools are on equal footing. Sydney, ANU, and UTS grads, he says, frequent other professions: journalism, politics are popular. Macquarie and UNSW, he says, have a very high ratio of people going to the bar. "It's a profession of 'how to network'", he says. A lot of work will come from people you met at school, at uni, and playing squash at the gym.

The opposing barrister, whose first name I forget said exactly the same thing as John. As he walked in the room, right after me asking John, the latter says "hey, what law school did I go to?" "I dunno, John. Sydney? New South? Why?" "Just showing Robert something". I guess he was showing me that once you've got a name for yourself, it's all pish-posh.

The random barrister I had coffee with said something slightly different, although he seemed much more old-school. If you can, he says, go to Sydney. "It's a fine law school", (note "fine") and you'll network with some great people. I asked him what other subjects he did at uni, and he replied "Latin and the law" (note "the").

Nothing further to add at this time.

Any questions?

I'm sorry about my terrible writing, but I decided a narrative would be good and you all could "get the feel" of it.

More tomorrow! I think the company might settle the case tomorrow, but in the mean time, I need to write a report about today and the witness cross/examination.
 
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xeuyrawp

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hYperTrOphY said:
Awesome!

Btw, thanks for your efforts to enlighten us on your experience. It is much appreciated. :)
I feel guilty that I can't report on legal matters.

After this case, John said he'd love to have me again in a couple of years. That way I could be of more use... I'll write tomorrow about Tuesday and Wednesday, although, like I said, I have a feeling the company may offer him a handshake.

Someone ask me something! :D
 

Arvin Sloane

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Wonderful reports! Was the random lawyer speaking with a British accent and affecting a haughty laugh at the non-USYD law students?

I shouldn’t be reading this though–i’ll end up wanting to do law again! :D
 
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xeuyrawp

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Arvin Sloane said:
Wonderful reports! Was the random lawyer speaking with a British accent and affecting a haughty laugh at the non-USYD law students?

I shouldn’t be reading this though–i’ll end up wanting to do law again! :D
He had a proper accent. You could say he spoke like a Brit, although didn't sound like one.

What I've seen of law is interesting. :D
 

§eraphim

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Was is that Mr Sands (John Sands?) from University College, London. Speaker on International Law? *scratches head*
 
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xeuyrawp

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§eraphim said:
Was is that Mr Sands (John Sands?) from University College, London. Speaker on International Law? *scratches head*
No. I think John Sands would be QC, not an SC?
 

hfis

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These are really good. Just posting to say thanks for putting the effort in to describe your experiences like this, the insight is very handy to have.
 
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xeuyrawp

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hfis said:
These are really good. Just posting to say thanks for putting the effort in to describe your experiences like this, the insight is very handy to have.
hey, I'm glad I can share these experiences.
 

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