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Common ion effect (1 Viewer)

Giant Lobster

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I dont get it
why don't solids affect equilibria?
consider saturated NaCl
so NaCl(s) <=> Na + Cl
but NaCl(s) does not participate in teh equilibrium, so the LHS is empty o_O hmmm I guess its possible, but it just doesnt seem right in a chem reaction to have one whole side as void.
 

xiao1985

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it does.... it just doens't affect equilibria with insignificant modification of them...
 

CHUDYMASTER

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Is this from an elective?
From what I understand...the salt completely dissociates into ions, forming no apparent equilibrium..
 

abdooooo!!!

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what the hell... let me explain this. :)

you see there is such a thing called the equilibrium constant, k. this constant defines where the equilibrium should be at. ie favouring which side. k = concentration of product/concentration of reactant.

but in this case the concentration of the reactant is ultimately constant since it is a solid. ie the density of NaCl(s) does not vary, the concentration of any pure solid or liquid can be regarded as a constant. we can only talk about concentration in terms of ions in a solution or gases in a confined space. therefore the only affector of this dynamic equilibrium can only be the products, ie the ions. :)

if you want a mathematical explaination of why le chatelier's principle works on chemical reactions consult an advanced chem book or something... lol.

so just remember that solids have a constant concentration, because they are not affected by pressure, temperature, or how much space there is or water there is in a solution and so forth.

so a simple answer would be when adding more solid you are not changing the concentration, so le chateliers principle tells us that we have no shift in equilibrium since only a concentration change can effect the equilibrium position. or another way to put it is that the adding of solid equally affects the foward and reverse reaction of the system, like a catalyst would do.

edit: hsc is fucked... if you're pretty smart person then you'll be confused of why such and such things happen instead of just being told they just do and learn to accept the facts lol

another thing you'll come across is the effect of inert gases... thats a funny one... they just tell you inert gase does not effect the equilibrium without any sought of explaination. when they can just provide a simple explaination in terms of dalton's law of partial pressures which is simple logics if you understand it... but that defeats the philosophy of the hsc: "minimal understanding maximum assimilating"
 
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spice girl

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ooo abdooo's been reading up

and btw i dun see how this discussion has anything to do with the common-ion effect
 

abdooooo!!!

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so you're saying its not common??? ahahah... i mean there is ions involved in the discussion right?

hey all this truanting has made me smarter... i should be in school now... but im not... ahahaha :D :D :D

hopefully they weren't check my days absences in the med interview thingy... :(
 

CHUDYMASTER

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Originally posted by abdooooo!!!
so you're saying its not common??? ahahah... i mean there is ions involved in the discussion right?

hey all this truanting has made me smarter... i should be in school now... but im not... ahahaha :D :D :D

hopefully they weren't check my days absences in the med interview thingy... :(
Nah there's no way they can know...but your principal might have something to say about it in your CV application for the interview... :)
 

abdooooo!!!

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Originally posted by CHUDYMASTER
Nah there's no way they can know...but your principal might have something to say about it in your CV application for the interview... :)
really? wow cool... i think my principal has nothing against me... he knows we are a bunch of loser kids so he wants to help us get a good job anyway possible... ahh i forgot to ask AK about the CV thing... can you pm me some infos on how the CV thing works? :)
 

spice girl

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hah i guess u haven't read upto it yet

common-ion effect is smth like the solubility of Ag2SO4 is actually reduced when sulfate (such as from Na2SO4) is already in solution. sulfate in this case is the "common ion"
 

abdooooo!!!

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lol. hey you know that was suppose to be a humorous comment... people this day. :p

yeah common-ion effect suppose to be mixing a really soluble salt with some crappy not very soluble salt which contains a common ion. and then you apply mr le chatelier's principle on this to get the effect. i think giant lobster was reading some book which had the subtitle of common ion effect, but he/she did not understand why the solid was not included... so had the thread name as common ion effect. :)

edit: if you didn't get the joke its like this... common can be taken as occuring frequently (usual) rather then sharing or belonging to each other. lol ;)
 
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mitochondria

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Originally posted by abdooooo!!!
edit: hsc is fucked... if you're pretty smart person then you'll be confused of why such and such things happen instead of just being told they just do and learn to accept the facts lol
lol.. totally agree :D and what's more is basically 98% (I not going too far :p) of the people involved in the HSC (including teachers, markers, the hotline people... and the list goes on) every year accept what they are being told. So a chain reaction happens here: teachers tell students what they were told, students tell other students what they were told... and we end up with a bunch of people who just write what they are told in the HSC ;)

However, that's not a bad thing afterall. According to my experience, if you want to do well in any HSC subjects (probably except for maths) you have to be able to crap. In case you are not familiar with this expression:

Crap /kraep ; krep/ n 1. excrement. 2. [C] act of defecating: have a ~ v. 1. (of or pertaining to HSC) to write lotsa irrelevant stuff: just ~ on about things in the HSC or all you have to do in the HSC is crap

Knowing your chemistry will only get you to band 5/lower band 6. I went back to school today and my chem teacher asked me, what advice have you got for this year's year 11 and 12 students? And my answer was: "Tell them to do better in English instead." :)

Originally posted by abdooooo!!!
another thing you'll come across is the effect of inert gases... thats a funny one... they just tell you inert gase does not effect the equilibrium without any sought of explaination. when they can just provide a simple explaination in terms of dalton's law of partial pressures which is simple logics if you understand it... but that defeats the philosophy of the hsc: "minimal understanding maximum assimilating"
;) that was lotsa of information you have presented there and they are very impressive. However, I'm not sure if you are right about Dalton's Law + Inert gas. You mentioned "...inert gase does not effect the equilibrium without any sought of explaination, when they can...": that will depend on the system right? Imagine you have a simple system such as the following:

CO2 + H2O ---> H2CO3

If you add an inert gas to this system, what would happen? Think about it using the Le Chatelier's Principle in terms of the the change in pressure.

I could be wrong about this :) and I was just wondering because Datlon Law states that "the total pressure of a mixture of gases or vapours is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of its components" and that only true for idea gases :)
 

Xayma

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Originally posted by mitochondria
and that only true for idea gases :)
Like every other thing in Chemistry.
 

abdooooo!!!

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Originally posted by mitochondria
lol.. totally agree :D and what's more is basically 98% (I not going too far :p) of the people involved in the HSC (including teachers, markers, the hotline people... and the list goes on) every year accept what they are being told. So a chain reaction happens here: teachers tell students what they were told, students tell other students what they were told... and we end up with a bunch of people who just write what they are told in the HSC ;)

However, that's not a bad thing afterall. According to my experience, if you want to do well in any HSC subjects (probably except for maths) you have to be able to crap. In case you are not familiar with this expression:

Crap /kraep ; krep/ n 1. excrement. 2. [C] act of defecating: have a ~ v. 1. (of or pertaining to HSC) to write lotsa irrelevant stuff: just ~ on about things in the HSC or all you have to do in the HSC is crap

Knowing your chemistry will only get you to band 5/lower band 6. I went back to school today and my chem teacher asked me, what advice have you got for this year's year 11 and 12 students? And my answer was: "Tell them to do better in English instead." :)
totally agreed :)

no truer words said on the hsc chem forum... bullcrapping is key to getting a good mark in chem. i knew that just before the hsc and when i found out and wrote my notes i discovered i can't write fast enough to bullcrap enough... so im repeating chem in the hope that my handwritting increases.
Originally posted by mitochondria
that will depend on the system right?
yep. it must be a gaseous chemical system at equilibrium. another condition is that the space that the gases are in must be relatively large for Dalton's assumption to be true.

but in your example, the increase in total pressure by inert gas does not affect the concentration of the CO2 gas and hence no effect on its behaviour in the system. only an external pressure change can affect the concentration or partial fraction of the CO2. spice girl is this correct???
 

spice girl

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yep abdooo is right...

equilibrium position is determined in this case by partial pressures of the gases, and there is no change if inert gas is added (provided the mix is still an ideal gas but it's probably not, considering such high pressures)
 

mitochondria

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Originally posted by abdooooo!!!
totally agreed :)

no truer words said on the hsc chem forum... bullcrapping is key to getting a good mark in chem. i knew that just before the hsc and when i found out and wrote my notes i discovered i can't write fast enough to bullcrap enough... so im repeating chem in the hope that my handwritting increases.
yep. it must be a gaseous chemical system at equilibrium. another condition is that the space that the gases are in must be relatively large for Dalton's assumption to be true.

but in your example, the increase in total pressure by inert gas does not affect the concentration of the CO2 gas and hence no effect on its behaviour in the system. only an external pressure change can affect the concentration or partial fraction of the CO2. spice girl is this correct???
*sigh* HSC = unreal but anyways, I've done that :D and it's your turn abdooooooooooo :p (it is right?)

oooh.. and about my example.. now when I re-read it I think it's wrong too.. I forgot about open system and closed system :p if we were talking about a closed system it would have been fine :( Thanks for the correction!
 

t-i-m-m-y

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is this from an option the common ion effect LOL i don't know whats going on

quote:
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Originally posted by abdooooo!!!

bullcrapping is key to getting a good mark in chem.
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i digress. if u know what ur talking about. ur not bullcrapping

consider reading the exam marking notes; they basically says that those ppl who bullcrap eerywhere beyond the number of lines provided tended to get less markss

u gotta be concise and nail the terminology down; not just writing loads of rubbish.. teachers recommend dot points too
 

abdooooo!!!

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Originally posted by t-i-m-m-y
i digress. if u know what ur talking about. ur not bullcrapping

consider reading the exam marking notes; they basically says that those ppl who bullcrap eerywhere beyond the number of lines provided tended to get less markss
that depends on what your definition of bullcrapping is. to me bullcrapping means writing a bunch of not needed stuff that is apparently relevant to the question according to the marking guidelines and your syllabus.

there is a huge difference between understanding and just knowing what to write (bullcrapping). let me illustrate this with something that is possible in future hsc:

"define what a chemical equation is, and explain the rules and procedures that must be applied when writting one."

beleive or not im smart enough to understand how a chemical equation works, but it is extremely hard for me to put it in the english language. do you get what i am talking about???

hsc is made so that students who know what to write gets the heighest marks... since 75% of the exam is in english written form, rather than more mathematical&chemical form, and multiple-choice type of question which directly tests understanding instead of being able to explain properly with proper grammar in strict time conditions... to me anyway since i write slow, and cannot think and write at the same time. but even worse is that they bring in stuff from social sciences like evaulate and assess in terms of cost, evironment and etc.
 

t-i-m-m-y

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yeah. okay

but i didn't bullcrap in mine but like u said its depends on ur definition

and besides. its all "relative" bro
 

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