Criticism Needed for Proposal...10 drafts and counting... (3 Viewers)

[Nerissa]

I desperately need help with my proposal. Now, I'm sure you've all rolled your eyes at help threads many, many times, perhaps assuming that people who write them are lazy and want others to do their work for them. This is NOT what I am expecting at all! To give you an idea of the kind of student I am, I study 5 hours every night, and am ranked first in Advanced English, Ancient History, SOR I and IPT (sorry if this sounds pompous, I don't mean it to be)! I have already done my proposal and have handed up 10 drafts of it. My teacher is the biggest perfectionist, and keeps giving contradictory criticism...first she said it's too specific, next too general...Now she says she wants it to be a plan of the essay, of exactly what I am going to say about the different schools of thought. I desperately need help! I have attached my proposal below...Could you please read it and tell me how to improve...Be ruthless, rip it to shreds Believe me, I won't be offended...I need honest criticism. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Love and huggles,
Nerissa

 

[ptitsa]

hi,

i think your proposal is actually quite good! you're obviously a capable student. there's so much detail in there that i, thankfully, never had to do for mine (and i got full marks for it too, hahah).

my criticisms are all related to the actual layout of the proposal. but by the looks of it, you have been told to set it out that way, so it's not something you can change. i would change the "my reasons for doing it" heading - it sounds a bit crass. it would fit better at the start of your proposal, perhaps integrated into your "statement of question". something along the lines of:

my spanish heritage has been a significant inspiration for me, as i've desired to investigate the history of my parent's country of birth, its leaders, and the society they shaped as a result. i also have an interest in the study of personalities etc etc...
as a result i have decided to investigate the historical debates concerning the spanish civil war....etc

or something along those lines

but of course, if your teacher doesn't want you to do something like that, ignore my advice. i don't want to be responsible for you getting a bad mark *worried*

if you want to see my proposal just pm me

good luck!

 

[miss_niss]

Hmm we were only allowed one page of writing. But its very good, covers the requirements. I handed mine in today. We have the same name by the way which is freaky because not many people spell it this way.

 

[Nerissa]

PTITSA ----> Thanks for your criticism. Yes, the layout is awful, but we were told to do it that way - we got a worksheet with headings like 'statement of question' and 'preliminary research' and had to fill it in (incidentally, the mark sheet for it is arranged in a similar way). I agree, the 'reasons for doing it' is extremely crass, sounds like a Year 7 wrote it, but again, that was one of the headings - ironically, that's like the only section of my proposal the teacher was happy with!!
MISS_NISS -----> Nerissa isn't my real name (I'm assuming it's yours), but I wish it was...Have you read Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice? There's a Nerissa in that...I fell in love with the name, which is also Sailor Neptune's name in Sailor Moon...It's so beautiful.
EVERYONE ----> My teacher says the proposal SHOULD BE A PLAN OF THE ESSAY, in other words, exactly how and what I am going to discuss about each school of thought. Can you help me out in interpreting this - what the heck does it mean and how should I apply it to my rewrite? Thanks so much!!

 

[Sarah168]

nerissa, i said i'd PM u , but while im here i might as well mention it. ur focussing TOO much on the proposal. its almost term 2 and ur focussing so much time and energy into something only worth 10 marks overall..may even be worth less at the end. maybe u need to get this right now in order to get started on ur essay but honestly, u have to get a move on and not get too pedantic about the proposal

 

[Ziff]

This is why the ExtEng2 system is slightly better. At least the finished product is marked externally. When you have a system like this the internal teacher can do whatever the hell they want and it's really not pretty at times.

Our proposal, luckily, was simply what we're doing (outline) and the historiographical issues involved (a very brief description). All up it was about 300-450 words max.

 

[Sarah168]

actually, in my situation, i would rather have it marked internally

 

[Ziff]

Bam!

 

[Plebeian]

Hmm... I really can't see how your proposal doesn't meet the requirements your teacher has set out. I think you have done a good job of summarising the changing interpretations. Maybe you should ask your teacher exactly what is wrong with it and work from there.

 

[ujuphleg]

I agree with Ziff and Sarah... well pretty much with everybody. Nerissa, your proposal is really good, if not bloody excellent. If the product was to be marked externally then being perdantic with the proposal would not be such a big issue. But because the product is internally marked, this means that teacher is usually teacher AND marker, in which case you have to do exactly what he/she says. Techie too is right, you need to ask her EXACTLY what is wrong with it and EXACTLY what they want you do to, because from what all of us can see in here (and we're all ext. history students from across the state) its fine, if anything, too detailed. Mine was 3 pages and was the longest in the class, but the font was pretty big and was no where near as detailed as yours. The main critcism I would have would be the layout, like pittsa said.

Perhaps it's just the way I'm used to looking at the page, but it's too cramped and theres too many things on the page... stupid i know, but sometimes if the page looks to crowded it hampers people from reading it. In addition, your expression could do with being worked on... "My reasons for doing it" does sound crass and "My motivation behind this project's intention" or even simply "My Motivation" or "My Inspiration" would suffice with 10x the effect.

If you would like more comments or my proposal just PM me. However, I do think that you need to speak to your teacher at the earliest possibility and in the meantime during this holidays to actually begin writing this as it is already Term 2...

 

[Nerissa]

SARAH168 ----> I know I am being pedantic with my proposal...I'm a complete perfectionist! Also, my target UAI is 99.99 (I want to get into B/Com majoring in Actuarial Studies at Macq. Uni, plus a UAI of 4 9's is just totally cool), so I really want to do well with this subject. I realize it is only worth 10 marks, but realistically, every mark counts. And as to the state of my project, I've already done all the research (20+ hours at Macq Uni Library, 30+ at Fisher Library, $150 worth of photocopying, violation of about every copyright law in the book) and read it all (as I'm currently working on my final draft), and have a pretty good idea of where the essay is heading. Ours isn't due until Term 3, but the first draft is due Week 5 of this coming term...I think I'm on top of it (I'm usually a last minute kind o' gal, so this is pretty good for me)! I am NOT happy that it is marked internally, as our teacher is horrible - she knows her stuff but marks not to guidelines but rather comparing us to each other (she even admitted this last lesson), and dislikes me (she told me in Year 10 I didn't have the ability to do Senior History, even though I got 98 in the School Certificate). With every other teacher, 1 draft is fine...with her, 10 isn't good enough...I wish we had an external marker...then everyone would be in the same boat.
UJUPHLEG AND TECHIE -----> Thanks for the vote of confidence! Believe me, we spent all of lunch (45 mins) 2 days in a row discussing what was wrong with it, but she wouldn't be any more specific than: "I want it to be a plan of your essay...I want to know exactly what you'll be writing about in your essay...You have to convince me that it won't be longer than 2500 words (as you might have noticed, I have a tendency to overwrite)..." She basically wants me to write my whole essay but at the same time make the proposal shorter!!
UJUPHLEG --->Yes, the layout is awful, but we were told to do it that way - we got a worksheet with headings like 'statement of question' and 'preliminary research' and had to fill it in (incidentally, the mark sheet for it is arranged in a similar way). I agree, the 'reasons for doing it' is extremely crass, sounds like a Year 7 wrote it, but again, that was one of the headings - ironically, that's like the only section of my proposal the teacher was happy with!! I might, however, change the formatting of the document so it is a bit more spaced out (the problem is, though, that this makes it look longer!!). I have already begun writing what I hope is my final draft - I've been looking through my research material and summarizing the views of the historians, giving specific statements and examples, as this is what my teacher has asked me to do. It's due the 2nd day back...I might put up the revised version and get feedback on it (when I get it done)...
EVERYONE ---> Thanks for all your feedback. Keep it coming...Yeah, that means you, you 33 people who have downloaded it without criticising it!!! (Joke...or is it?)

 

[Plebeian]

After having read it again, I think there might be a few things you could improve.

1. I don't think it is clear enough exactly what you want to say about each historian. You seem to have a few points written for each one but not a really concise argument. All the stuff is undoubtedly true but your teacher probably wants a little more in terms of contrasting the different historians or making a point about each one (eg. their work is unreliable or fails to treat certain concerns) rather than just a description. Your focus question does mention "critically analyse and evaluate", after all. I think the analysis is there, and you probably know what it should be in your mind, but you need to make it really clear what your point is about each historian, what you've decided after reading the work and other historians' comments on it. (Also, I don't think referencing is necessary - it's only a proposal).

2. I think your teacher is right when she says it doesn't seem like it will be under 2500 words. The proposal itself is 3500! Is it possible to consolidate the limitations and description sections into one? It might not be depending on how strict your teacher is with setting out, and it seems like she is (strict).

3. Apart from the layout issues others have mentioned, I think the point form is contributing to the sense of lacking a clear direction. In some cases the points are not directly related to each other, and that makes it seem like you have several different issues that you're going to be covering. If you have picked 6 historical schools of thought for the one theme, you're probably going to have keep each one fairly short to fit into a 2500 word essay, so having several branching ideas might not work.

4. If you're looking for areas to cut back, maybe look at the first few (preliminary research, in particular). Is it necessary to list of all those books from Ryde? If they were the ones which were "especially relevant", how many did you read that weren't especially relevant?

I still think the proposal is good, but you did ask for criticism, so my main suggestion is this: make it absolutely clear to your teacher exactly what analysis you have come up with about each historian. It seems odd to be writing about the conclusions you have drawn when you're doing the proposal, but since that's what your teacher asked for and you're already a fair way through the project, you may as well.

 

[Nerissa]

TECHIE ---> Thanks very much for the criticism. I just finished my final draft, having spent 13.5 hours on the weekend doing it. YAY!! Yes, in relation to your first point, I realized that I was just being vague / giving generalizations about each historian's views, so what I did was, I went through the chapters I photocopied from each one's book and summarized their views, so it becomes obvious from reading it that they are way different - eg Marxist just focuses on economic issues / class struggle, political historian just on the political causes of the Spanish Civil War, traditional historian claims the causes were ideological, modernist combines social, economic and political causes. I then analysed the limitations of each school of thought, both in terms of the reliability / bias of each text I will be discussing in the essay, and the general restrictions of, say, a Marxist view (eg rejects evidence that doesn't fit the model of base / superstructure, narrow, simplistic view that denies the importance of political factors). It is WAY more detailed (about 2 pages on each school), but she did say she wanted to know exactly what I was discussing in the essay...[Did I mention I culled the 6 historical schools down to 3 plus 200 words on the bias / unreliability of the traditional view?] I'm still doing each historian's interpretation in point form, but because I have written the points while reading their work, it flows a lot better (ie the flow of the points is the same as the flow of the argument in the book). I did cut back on the prelim research - I culled the list, simply picked the 5 most revelant sources and explained in detail why they were useful, their reliability and bias, about half a page on each. I cut out most of the vague crap in the research intentions, so that all that's left is a short explanation of why I'm focussing on the 4 texts I am, and then the 2 page summary of each text. My proposal is longer, but I think it's more what my teacher is looking for (I hope!)...I have tried to make it as specific as possible...May post it up here, but I probably won't get time to type it until the coming weekend (working on English assessment this week). THANK YOU so much for taking the time to read my proposal AGAIN - I'm astonished at the generosity of people who read it once, so twice just takes the cake. You are a beautiful person, the next Mother (or Father) Teresa!! Thanks for making your criticism so specific and for not being afraid to raise several points - most people are afraid to be critical, but you really highlighted what I needed to improve on and so helped me to write a better proposal...THANKS!! Ironically, on Friday I wrote a list of what was wrong with my proposal, and it was identical to your list. I shouldn't have bothered...I should have just come to BoS and read your message...Thanks again, you are a sweetie!
Love,
Nerissa
PS - Do you think, now that I've made those changes, that it's 9 or 10 out of 10 material?

 

[Plebeian]

Next Mother Teresa, eh? (or actually Father, since I am male...)

Well, I don't know about that - just trying to help.

I think the changes you've made sound good, and should cover what your teacher is asking for. I still think she's kind of missing the point - IMO the proposal shouldn't contain the material for the essay, since when you write it you are proposing an investigation, not writing about it in hindsight. I still think the proposal sounds a bit long, but that's because of what your teacher has asked you to do and I doubt you could change it.

I really hope you do get 9 or 10 - you've certainly put in more than enough effort to deserve it. Make sure you tell us how you go (if you're happy to!).

One more thing - unfortunately, there is no such UAI as 99.99. It goes straight from 100.00 to 99.95. Admirable ambition, though!

 

[Nerissa]

OOOOOHHHHHH MMMMMYYYYYYY GGGGGGOOOOOODDDDDD!!!! Guess what guys? After 12 drafts, I handed in my final proposal last week. I got it back today: 10/10! WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO!! The closest mark was 9 (only one person got that) and then 8 (again, only one person got that)! She totally hated my proposal right up until I handed it in...and then she loved it. She wrote 2 A4 pages about how she loved it...her only criticism was that it wasn't written in the past tense (she makes a big deal about this, as history has already happened). All of our proposals have been put in a folder in the library under special reserve so all future Extension students can look at them to get ideas...I'm going to go read the girl who got 9/10's one to see how close the competition really is. YYYYYYYAAAAAAYYYYYY!! Now I have the first draft of the essay due in two weeks, and she basically just wants me to copy the proposal exactly (taking out the irrelevant bits such as research intentions, etc.) and write an intro and conclusion. She said "don't do any more reading, research or critical thinking" - what I have is "more than adequate". And I haven't even read the books I'm writing about! Oh well, no use in making work for myself. I'd like to say a huge big thank you to my pals SARAH168, who helped keep it all in perspective for me and advised me not to be such a perfectionist and a stresshead, and TECHIE, who provided excellent, 110% helpful constructive criticism - I really think it was your comments that earnt me that extra mark! So thank you - I owe each of you a big hug (or a beer, whichever you'd prefer)!! By the way, SARAH, that girl who I mentioned before that you had a big argument with on the modern thread (can't say her name, she might know my handle): she got 5/10. Shows how much she knows. The following is an extract from my teacher's 2 page comment - it is so gushy and over the top (why can't she be so nice and full of praise in person?); she's the exact opposite in class. "Extension History has been taught at ________ (my school) since 2001. I have never read such a detailed, analytical proposal such as yours...You have exceptional research skills - so much so that I'm glad you've done so many drafts that I know it is your own work (see how she subtly accuses me of being the type of girl who would plagiarize while pretending to compliment me? ). Congratulations again on your fine work. (Here comes the clincher): I think you are capable of writing a history of history - similar to Sophie's World - when you have spare time after your HSC." (!!!!!) You would realize how ridiculous that last statement is by me telling you that I hate ENGLISH and WRITING so much that even though I am coming 1st in English and have the highest aggregate of all my subjects, I would not do it if it was not compulsory. Thanks once again! Ooohhh, I feel so warm and fuzzy...Who needs sex, drugs, alcohol or rock n roll when you have HSC success? This is better than an orgasm. Bye!

 

[giggles]

i did up my proposal in my free period, and handed it in that lunch time.... a page long, of just babble.. and got 10/10.... pretty good for 75 mins work!

 

[Plebeian]

Nerissa -->

Originally posted by Nerissa

she basically just wants me to copy the proposal exactly (taking out the irrelevant bits such as research intentions, etc.) and write an intro and conclusion.

Lol. Could you post the finished proposal? I'd be interested to see a 10/10 one.

BTW, when I first read your sig, I thought you were talking about Denethor

 

[ujuphleg]

yeah please post the final proposal it would be nice to see a 10/10.

thats great work Nerissa. well done.

i'm not sure its better than an orgasm though

 

[angelduck]

I dont think seeing someones elses proposal (especially one thats 3500 words) is really that useful, u need to see what ur teacher wants, coz their the ones marking it

 

[Nerissa]

Originally posted by angelduck
I dont think seeing someones elses proposal (especially one thats 3500 words) is really that useful, u need to see what ur teacher wants, coz their the ones marking it

Look, it's that time of the month so I apologise if I'm being bitchy, but can you please stop slagging me off? I've seen you do it in the Troy thread in the Ancient forum as well, and it's really pissing me off. To begin with, I don't do modern, I do ancient, and the only reason I picked the Spanish Civil War as a topic is because I'm from a Spanish background and my teacher advised (more like ordered) me to do a modern case study. Sure, my proposal was 3,500 words, but it was 3,500 GOOD words, as my mark proves. And I didn't make it that long because I'm a stupid nerd who has nothing better to do with her life, I had to write that much because my teacher told me that unless I did, I couldn't access the top band. I play the game - I do what I have to to get the best marks, even though I (and others) may consider it a waste of time. And actually, not to sound arrogant, but I think my proposal would be useful, as my teacher reckons it's the best she has seen, and it would give people an idea of the absolute maximum standard / amount of information required to get full marks - I'm not the only one who has a cow of a teacher! Having said that, it is definitely important to check with your teacher to see what he / she wants, but I think my proposal would be a useful guideline. I spent more than 50 hours on the proposal and earned my mark, so don't you dare try to cut me down. I earned my success, and I am willing to share my work with others so that they can succeed too. So stop bugging me!!

Originally posted by Techie
Nerissa -->

BTW, when I first read your sig, I thought you were talking about Denethor

I'm a Tolkien purist, so I'll correct your error - Denethor was never KING of Gondor, only Steward, the King's caretaker. But you'd be forgiven for thinking he was king if you've just watched the movies and haven't read the book. Aragorn is the one true king - of the combined kingdom of Gondor and Arnor, and my heart. Aaahhh, he's such a sweetie. I reckon he should have been in Troy: he would have made a far better Achilles than Brad Pitt.

Originally posted by ujuphleg
yeah please post the final proposal it would be nice to see a 10/10.

thats great work Nerissa. well done.

i'm not sure its better than an orgasm though

Thanks so much for the congrats! You're a real sweetie (by the way, your avie is very cool, though I sincerely hope that's not your car)! On second thoughts, I doubt that a 10/10 for my Ext. His proposal would be better than having sex with Viggo Mortensen, but I guess I'll never know (sigh). And as for the intensity of the pleasure of orgasm, I'll get back to you when I lose my virginity.

TO EVERYONE WHO WANTED MY PROPOSAL ----> At the moment, I can't find it, as I typed about a million drafts and saved each one. Plus, I used 3 different computers to type them, so the documents are EVERYWHERE. I'll try and find it by the end of the week, and I'll definitely submit it to the site at the end of the year, cause I think it'll be more beneficial to the 05'ers rather than us 04'ers, as everyone has already handed in their proposals. Luv ya'll!