ibers won't get away (2 Viewers)

[turtleface]

There are so many people that say "oh I want to be an Investment Banker!!!" but then say "Oh I hate Accounting, its so boring I want to do Finance and I ain't touching Accounting"

I was reading the latest issue of Charter today and it was reporting on the recent CA business leaders award and the award for the best CA in practice went to the head of the IBD at Macquarie, who is a CA. Anyway I couldn't be stuffed to see if the other banks had IBDs headed by Accountants. I just checked out UBS and internationally, for their IBD they had:
the Vice Chairman of IBD, CFO of IBD and Chief of Staff of IBD who were all former or current CAs or CPAs.

I dont understand why Accountants are so overrepresented in IB...given that everyone who seems to want to get into IBing say that don't do Accounting and that they never want to touch Accounting again.

But it appears that you'll never get away from Accounting. Macquarie for example, has 50 of its IBankers currently doing the CA Program.

Maybe I'm generalising, but it seems for most IBers they do A LOT of Accounting lol.....

 

[blue_chameleon]

Agreed.

My friend has an uncle that is a director at Mac Bank. He has his CA.

In my opinion, if there is anyone that believes you can reach the top of the ladder in business without strong knowledge and understanding of accounting, you are mistaken big time. It doesnt matter what industry you look at, the majority of all CFO/CEO's and other directors have a background in accounting, and CA's or CPA's.

 

[pikachufkr]

There are so many people that say "oh I want to be an Investment Banker!!!" but then say "Oh I hate Accounting, its so boring I want to do Finance and I ain't touching Accounting"

Hahaha poor turtleface, always sticking up for accountants.

Anyone going into corporate finance will know that accounting is important. I'd say that an in depth knowledge of the financial statements is something all IBers know inside out. You don't need to do 3 years of accounting to learn this stuff though.

Fact of the matter is that BCom - Accounting (usually) isn't elite enough to get into the top graduate roles in IB.

Go back to the big 4!

 

[Omnidragon]

Pretty unusual thread to start up... Guessing another IB aspirant pissed you off?

 

[overfloat]

It doesnt matter what industry you look at, the majority of all CFO/CEO's and other directors have a background in accounting, and CA's or CPA's.

having said that, the majority of CAs and CPAs are not actually CFOs or CEOs

anyway, the average CEO probably would have done his degree 20 years+ ago, when finance was not as highly regarded as the core business skill of accounting.

The world has changed since then, increased gloablisation has led to new innovations and opportunities in finance and a relative stable period in accounting

finance is where the excitement is, although accounting will get you a stable job

 

[blue_chameleon]

didnt I tell you to STFU!!!!

I would use stronger language to describe your intellect or lack thereof but will refrain for the benefit of moderators. bloody moderators - they're worse than big brother

I heart you tacky.

having said that, the majority of CAs and CPAs are not actually CFOs or CEOs

anyway, the average CEO probably would have done his degree 20 years+ ago, when finance was not as highly regarded as the core business skill of accounting.

The world has changed since then, increased gloablisation has led to new innovations and opportunities in finance and a relative stable period in accounting

finance is where the excitement is, although accounting will get you a stable job

Overfloat, obviously the majority of CAs and CPAs are not actually CFOs or CEOs. Doesnt take much explanation to realise that there are only a certain number of CFO and CEO positions, and I would think its pretty safe to say there are higher numbers of CA and CPA qualified accountants, than there are CEO and CFO positions for them.

As for the rest of the post......um yeah.

 

[Omnidragon]

The thing is, people are so judgmental about both professions (IB and Audit). There's nothing wrong... what ticks me is that I think most people haven't worked in either industry and they're out there putting down the other profession like they've had 10 years of worldly experience in the area.

 

[ND]

A lot of people have moral issues with investment banking.

On what basis? Why is raising capital for companies or advising unethical?

 

[Omnidragon]

A lot of people have moral issues with investment banking.

Picking up on ND's point, it's just a person's perception. In actual fact, any industry can be immoral if the people are immoral.

Investment Banks, we have the forex traders etc...

Auditors, we only need to look at Enron...

Finally, I also reckon that economics is the most interesting major out of the three.

 

[overfloat]

didnt I tell you to STFU!!!!

I would use stronger language to describe your intellect or lack thereof but will refrain for the benefit of moderators. bloody moderators - they're worse than big brother

didnt i tell you....

if not...... here it is again.....

 

[blackfriday]

i wouldnt call finance exactly 'exciting' either. you just dont get the typical accountant stereotype, but the only difference between the jobs is that you're looking more towards the future. uncertainty makes for an interesting life but you have models to use and your own prudential discretion so it isnt really unpredictable.

accounting, finance, actuary and economics are ptetty dry subjects and unless you get your rocks off over number crunching and the resulting bags of money delivered to your house then it'll be a pretty sterile existence.

 

[turtleface]

Overfloat, warning for you:

In the business community, the terms Finance and Accounting are often used interchangeably.

For instance, a company's bookkeeping department is often called the "Finance Department."

A "Finance Manager" or a "Financial Controller" is almost always (99.999%) an CA/CPA Accountant.

Job Ads for Accountants often ask for a "A degree in Finance"

CPAs call themselves "Finance Professionals"

When job ads ask for skills in Finance, they almost always mean Accounting (e.g. cash management, budgeting, forecasting etc.). When they mean the Finance you mean (derivatives and shit), they'll say they want experience in "Investing" or "Capital Markets"

Just becareful Overfloat that you don't accidentally end up in Accounting...

 

[what971]

Don't you have to undergo additional accounting work for 3years with shiiittt wages to become CA?

 

[turtleface]

Not always, only in Public Practice.

I know of Graduate Accountants getting $60K+ first year out in some companies in C & I, but usually they're the only ones there as a grad...so there are disadvantages associated with that.

Anyway, its not what you earn first year out that counts, its what you get in 5 and 10 years time.

Theres no point getting an extra $20,000 as a grad in a job you'd hate compared to $20,000 less at a place that will give you good CA support, a good working environment and good career advancement opportunities. This is not to say that there are no good career opportunities in C & I, but Big Four Alumni are widely sort after, and you have to ask yourself would you rather spend 10 years to make CFO or Partner instead?

The other thing with Big Four Firms for instance is that they know like 75% of people will be gone before Manager level in 5 years time. They don't want to waste money on people who are using it as a training facility and pissing off to an Investment Bank or a Management Consulting Firm. However, people still use them as an University. Its a bit like "Come in, get your CA, get paid 40,55,70K after your 3 years, get good C&I experience working out of a firm"...
Its too tempting for some people to resist despite the (lets face it) SHITEHOUSE salary

 

[Omnidragon]

Completely agree... many things can't be measured by money, e.g. the x-factor of working at big 4; the exposure to high-end clients; contacts you make from a big 4 firm etc.

I honestly think it's better to approach such jobs with a more open mind. It's an opportunity-building exercise, and by working at places with the most exposure, you at least give yourself that benefit of more alternatives.

 

[Giant Lobster]

Completely agree... many things can't be measured by money, e.g. the x-factor of working at big 4; the exposure to high-end clients; contacts you make from a big 4 firm etc.

I honestly think it's better to approach such jobs with a more open mind. It's an opportunity-building exercise, and by working at places with the most exposure, you at least give yourself that benefit of more alternatives.

Thats the correct attitude

Its not only how much you make in monetary terms
What counts is ultimately what value add the firm ultimately offers you (equals salary + experience + networking opportunities)

But then whos to say the contacts you make in Big4 are that great? Personally I tend to think an analyst grad role in a world class IB has much better networking opportunities than first yr shit-kicking in Big4

oh do flame me so

 

[ND]

But then whos to say the contacts you make in Big4 are that great? Personally I tend to think an analyst grad role in a world class IB has much better networking opportunities than first yr shit-kicking in Big4

The contacts you make in MC are better than IB, but so what? turtleface was comparing C&I (not sure what it means) and Big4.

 

[Minai]

What's 3 or 4 years in a 30+ year career?
Hell, I'll stay where I am for the next few years and then assess my options.

It's easy to say "oh just go to an IB to get your contacts/experience", but the problem is, its so much easier to get into a Big4 who'll pay your CA, than it is to get into an IB since demand greatly exceeds supply for those positions.

 

[turtleface]

But then whos to say the contacts you make in Big4 are that great? Personally I tend to think an analyst grad role in a world class IB has much better networking opportunities than first yr shit-kicking in Big4

I dunno about that. There are a lot of famous business people out of the Big 4, I'll find some in the 5min after I post and edit and give some examples to show how prevalent they are.

The contacts you make in MC are better than IB, but so what? turtleface was comparing C&I (not sure what it means) and Big4. (Aus ppl only)

Sorry, I mean Commerce & Industry by C&I. lol Whats MC?

EDIT: ok I found some famous and high up business people who are ex-big 4. Hows this for networking? These people are by a no means exhaustive list and I've found them in the time between posting and this edit.

Rick Allert, Coles Myer Ltd Chairman (Ex-KPMG Partner)
Margaret Jackson, Qantas Chairman (chairwoman) (Ex-KPMG Partner)
Jeff Lucy, ASIC (Australian Securities & Investment Commission) Chairman (Ex-PwC Partner)
John Moule, Toll Holdings Chairman (ex-Deloitte Partner)
I'd also estimate more than 50% of all CFOs of top 100 companies are ex-big 4

 

[Omnidragon]

When do you get to the level of meeting these contacts? How long does it take?