Profession or just another business? (2 Viewers)

capa

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When I enetered law I expected to make money AND contribute to society. Now it seems that lawyers at commercial firms are no better than accountants! Work, get paid, go home, eat, sleep, do it again. There seems to be no meaning in a lawyers work beyond money. Its like i'm seeing lawyers in the same light as business people; not a seperate profession, lawyers.

Anyway, i'm sure we all ponder this question considering most of us aimed to save the world at one stage :) (maybe you still do!)

Good luck with clerkships and articles by the way!
 

Frigid

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DON'T BE SO NAIVE!! :D

save the world? that's for Mr Justice Kirby-types :p
 

MoonlightSonata

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capa said:
When I enetered law I expected to make money AND contribute to society. Now it seems that lawyers at commercial firms are no better than accountants! Work, get paid, go home, eat, sleep, do it again. There seems to be no meaning in a lawyers work beyond money. Its like i'm seeing lawyers in the same light as business people; not a seperate profession, lawyers.

Anyway, i'm sure we all ponder this question considering most of us aimed to save the world at one stage :) (maybe you still do!)

Good luck with clerkships and articles by the way!
1. It depends on what area of law you are dealing with.

2. Speak for yourself, I'm going to the bar!
 
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capa said:
When I enetered law I expected to make money AND contribute to society. Now it seems that lawyers at commercial firms are no better than accountants! Work, get paid, go home, eat, sleep, do it again. There seems to be no meaning in a lawyers work beyond money. Its like i'm seeing lawyers in the same light as business people; not a seperate profession, lawyers.

Anyway, i'm sure we all ponder this question considering most of us aimed to save the world at one stage :) (maybe you still do!)

Good luck with clerkships and articles by the way!
Enter into teaching the law :D Or join legal aid :)
 
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LaraB

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Enter into teaching the law :D Or join legal aid :)
seriously - legal aid is a good option if you're a "save the world" type:)

the stuff that goes on, particularly in children's legal service - if you're a save the world type person you'd love working there...even if it is really disturbing at times....

some of the cases that get assigned to NSWLAC are directly results of the lawyers who are just out to make money... lol particularly one firm who shall remain nameless lol... its general consensus at LAC that they're jerks who are out to screw client's who aren't smart enough to know what is and isn't ethical/right...

pay's no where near as good as a big private firm, but it's far from "bad"... and you have kinda, set hours in a way coz of who pays you/how you are paid so you won't get as many 100 hr weeks lol - eg - Legal Officer, Grade i-iii in family law position advertised atm - total remuneration package is valued to $83, 909 pa which is like.. not as fab as a private firm :p but not "bad" either

i guess if you wanna help the world, don't go into civil lol:) everyone always says they cause more problems than they solve, the same as family in some people's opinions....
 

santaslayer

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Do international law. Work for a charity dealing with human rights.

You can't make money and save the world at the same time. Not many can anyway.
 

capa

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Hey ~

Obviously the save the world desire was in high school. I'm in final year and am much more realistic about a career but sometimes I do ask myself if I would be happy in a big corporate firm.

I always ask myself if it pays beyond the great money - does it offer more than just good pay? The fact that most firms are regarded as sweat shops also raised my doubts about whether a career as a corporate lawyer would be "fulfilling".
 

ManlyChief

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MoonlightSonata said:
2. Speak for yourself, I'm going to the bar!
Oooo - yay! I want to go too. But since I'm taking a year off for history honours, you'll probably get there before me. I'll be there soon. Try and get some seats near the window, so we can watch the room and get me a gin and tonic, please :)

Seriously, it's nice to see there are still some folks left who want to play dress-ups and stand around listening to the sound of their own voices.

Love,
MC
 

ManlyChief

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If you'd like to save the world and yet make some money, too, perhaps you should try to get rooms in Garden Court Chambers. Did anyone read the article in the Australian on Friday about them? Here's the original from The Times. I am now thinking of becoming an English radical lawyer, so long as all their chambers are as pretty ...

The Times said:
Radical set's grand style is the envy of the Bar
By Frances Gibb

Garden Court Chambers says that it is sticking to its social ethos - despite its £9 million makeover


RADICAL SETS of chambers were traditionally to be found in scruffy cramped buildings — the lack of plush fittings a testimony to their ethos and focus on the poor and disadvantaged.
No longer. In what is perhaps the most ambitious move of its kind 2 Garden Court — now renamed Garden Court Chambers — has bought four buildings dating from the 17th century in Lincoln’s Inn Fields for £9 million (this includes £2 million for refurbishment), to become the biggest and most prestigious new site at the Bar. Yet this is not a top commercial chambers — 90 per cent of its work is on legal aid.



In some ways the move marks a coming of age, both for Garden Court under joint heads Owen Davies, QC, and Courtenay Griffiths, QC, and for radical sets generally. Places such as Cloisters, Doughty Street, Tooks Court and more recently Matrix are no longer seen as “fringe” or the awkward squad with problem cases that no one else wants and plenty of pro bono. Pro bono remains but commercially Garden Court Chambers is up there with the rest and poaching top names.

Last week Garden Court took on David Spens, QC, a leading criminal silk and former chairman of the Criminal Bar Association, one of five new criminal practitioners (see Trading Places). A further batch of recruits is planned. Colin Cook, senior clerk and only black senior clerk of a big set in Britain, is bullish. “We are 88-strong and plan to grow to 130 — we want to get better, and better and better. We hope to attract instructing solicitors nationwide, who will find it difficult to ignore us . . . we want them to start having a look at us . . . both City firms and high street firms.”

Understandably the chambers’ mood is buoyant. The 35,000 sq ft Grade I-listed buildings — next-door neighbours are Farrers, the Queen’s solicitors — are spacious and elegant as well as modern. There is a library, state-of-the-art video-conference room, a vast relaxation room, 24-hour security, car parking for clients, lecture and seminar rooms, shower rooms and even a gym where t’ai chi classes take place. There is hot-desking and plenty of individual rooms — many still vacant.

Davies says: “Let’s have no illusions — there was some nervousness. We are paying double in chambers’ expenses what some others pay. But it has been a huge boost for morale and enabled us to do so many things we’ve always wanted to do — a lot more in-house services, meetings, forging links with charitable groups and political organisations . . . we have become a vibrant think-tank and community.”

There is plenty of history: a previous owner of one of the houses was Spencer Perceval, the only English Prime Minister to be assassinated, in the lobby of the House of Commons in 1812. Dickens wrote that Tulkinghorn, the lawyer in Bleak House, occupied another of the houses, where lawyer dwelt “like maggots in nuts”.

So how can they afford it? Cook admits it was a long haul to persuade barristers to take it on. “We’d been looking for new premises for a while and seen other places, but then this came up. I must admit I wasn’t sure at first — I thought, don’t we want something all steel and plate glass? But I am a total convert.” The finance involved most members pledging a sum of money through a self-invested personal pensions scheme or SIPPS. The tax benefits of the scheme will be reduced from April so other chambers could not benefit to the same extent. If barristers leave, the others buy out their share. It means that chambers’ overheads run at about 21 per cent of earnings. But the figure should reduce in time as more barristers come on board.

The set does general common law: criminal, civil, including immigration and housing, and family, there are separate clerks’ rooms with 13 clerks for the three main streams, as well as an administration section of 12 who handle human resources, marketing, IT and accounts, and even a permanent office maintenance man complete with his own workshop in the basement. Annual turnover is £12 million.

For Cook, 43, it is something of a personal triumph. He has seen the fortunes of 2 Garden Court wax and wane as the Bar’s radical sets regrouped over the past two decades. The son of a carpenter, he left school in Forest Hill, South London, at 17 with five O levels and after one year of A levels. He shone at sport and played basketball nationally. But after a holiday stint with a law firm someone suggested that he become a barrister’s clerk. “I said — what’s that?”

A barrister took him under his wing and he met the clerks and “got dragged into clerking”. Interviews followed and then a first job offer. “There was discrimination in the Eighties — very much so. But I’ve never let that kind of thing stand in my way or bother me. I just deal with it — I don’t run off crying about it.” In 1981 he moved to 2 Garden Court, where there were black tenants. “They were very receptive, very nice and then, as now, it was all about social justice and human rights.”

There were a couple of hiatuses, when some key names broke away to form first Doughty Street and then again to create Matrix (the latter including the Director of Public Prosecutions, Ken Macdonald). “It is very upsetting at the time. You feel betrayed and take it personally. And the other tenants become despondent. But we’ve come back stronger. I’m an optimist — I always knew we’d survive.” By 1989 he was senior clerk and is now on a six-figure salary. Since then he has regretted missing university but taken a postgraduate diploma in management and then an MBA, both part-time.

“Things are better — there’s a lot more political awareness. Ten years ago, left-wing chambers were regarded as on the periphery and talked down by the rest of the Bar. Now they are the envy of the rest of the Bar.” Already the chambers’ plans to capitalise on its facilities, with seminars and lecture series planned. Some are charitable events but it hopes also to recoup income from letting rooms.

Its strategy goes farther, however. Cook is eyeing fresh horizons from his new empire. “I’d like to break into new market- places — we are progressive enough to market ourselves to such an extent that we will get that work. We’ve not got an iconic building so they are looking at us to see if we will survive the next year or two.” And, he believes, the core legal aid work will continue — despite the Government’s forthcoming review. “We ’re going to stick to our knitting — but with a new twist to our ethos of social justice.”
Oooooo ... and their website looks so pretty ... especially when compared to Wentworth Chamber's shitty attempt ....
 

neo o

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Indeed, I'm going to pinch some of their latin too! :p

"Recte faciendo neminem timens" (Do right, fear no-one!)
 

MoonlightSonata

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ManlyChief said:
Oooo - yay! I want to go too. But since I'm taking a year off for history honours, you'll probably get there before me. I'll be there soon. Try and get some seats near the window, so we can watch the room and get me a gin and tonic, please :)

Seriously, it's nice to see there are still some folks left who want to play dress-ups and stand around listening to the sound of their own voices.

Love,
MC
Don't forget some hot secretaries.

But I don't think I can start off at the bar... barristers needing to be given briefs from solicitors and all - ie. connections required. I think I'll have to work as a solicitor for about 5-7 years first.

I am still not absolutely certain on my decision at the moment, as I have heard conflicting advice.


PS. Get a close chamber and we can mooch notes and briefs off each other :p
 
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wheredanton

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LaraB said:
some of the cases that get assigned to NSWLAC are directly results of the lawyers who are just out to make money...
What exactly is wrong with going out just to make money? Do you have issue with the capitalist political economy?

i guess if you wanna help the world, don't go into civil lol:) everyone always says they cause more problems than they solve, the same as family in some people's opinions....
There are plenty of people who are in need of civil assistance. Unless of course you think people like the Amadio's didn't need any help.
 
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Frigid

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i fully agree with the above post, but cbf to reply.

there is nothing wrong with acting for big corporations, being paid handsomely for it, chasing that third mortgage payment off the house in northbridge, trophy cars, trophy wives, trophy kids in trophy private schools :D
 
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wheredanton

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Frigid said:
i fully agree with the above post, but cbf to reply.

there is nothing wrong with acting for big corporations, being paid handsomely for it, chasing that third mortgage payment off the house in northbridge, trophy cars, trophy wives, trophy kids in trophy private schools :D
The point was that there are many different lawyers out there that do many different jobs. Each plays an important part in the society which we have today.

Soceity needs legal aid lawyers it also needs corporate lawyers, criminal defence lawyers and lawyers that defend tabacco companies. The narrow minded speculate as to the reletive morals of an individual's chosen career path and motivations, chooseing to affirm that somehow their chosen path is more just and moral. Life isn't as clear cut as that and neither are the moral issues that lawyers in various fields face each day. I'd hope larab isn't suggesting that legal aid NSW is the only gleaming light of morality which individuals can attach themselves to when having a stab at people who dare to try and earn as much money as they can from the profession that they worked hard to enter.

A child may be from a poor family that has worked hard to send their child to law school so that he/she can face a better future. He/she may be personally motivated to improve the life of their family as well as their personal life through earning as much money as possible. I'm not sure how you can question that person's morals or motivations. They are as moral as the person who joins legal aid to help those who cannot, often, help themselves.

I'm not sure how you can question a firm that moves on cases because they won't be able to make money out of it. People run businesses to make money. That said pro bono work is encouraged within large firms (or at least that is the impression I get from the PR).
 
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MoonlightSonata

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One can make decent money and still have a meaningful life, filled with many deep and fulfilling relationships.
 
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LaraB

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wheredanton said:
What exactly is wrong with going out just to make money? Do you have issue with the capitalist political economy?


There are plenty of people who are in need of civil assistance. Unless of course you think people like the Amadio's didn't need any help.
yes i do have an issue with capitalism in that sense but that's beside the point.. i ws simply pointing out that if you want to help people who get screwed by others, legal aid is a good place because you get the cases that others can't be stuffed taking on

and the 2nd comment - obviously it's a generalisation based on what other people as in the general public appear to think - which was plainly obvious as i said that that kind of opinion seems to be general consensus...

but if you want to take the comment as some straight fact worth starting an argument over - why don't you have a look at the average pay of lawyers in these respective fields... civil certainly isn't lowly and criminal certainly isn't the highest... so either way the point was valid
 

wheredanton

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LaraB said:
yes i do have an issue with capitalism in that sense but that's beside the point.. i ws simply pointing out that if you want to help people who get screwed by others, legal aid is a good place because you get the cases that others can't be stuffed taking on
I knew Legal aid was full of socialists! ;)

and the 2nd comment - obviously it's a generalisation based on what other people as in the general public appear to think - which was plainly obvious as i said that that kind of opinion seems to be general consensus...
What?
larab said:
but if you want to take the comment as some straight fact worth starting an argument over - why don't you have a look at the average pay of lawyers in these respective fields... civil certainly isn't lowly and criminal certainly isn't the highest... so either way the point was valid
You don't have to be badly paid in order to help people?

To suggest that public law and by implication Criminal law(unless of course you mean other areas of public law like constitutional), are the only ways you can help the disadvantaged is an ignorant comment.

Civil law is an important area. Again, I'm sure the Amadios's were glad that someone stuck up for their civil law rights.
 

santaslayer

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wheredanton said:
I knew Legal aid was full of socialists! ;)


What?

You don't have to be badly paid in order to help people?

To suggest that public law and by implication Criminal law(unless of course you mean other areas of public law like constitutional), are the only ways you can help the disadvantaged is an ignorant comment.

Civil law is an important area. Again, I'm sure the Amadios's were glad that someone stuck up for their civil law rights.
I wanna work for a tobacoo company! So cool. One tobacoo company was present in the UoW careers fair. They were looking for 5th(?) year law students who were willing to defend their rights..aahahaha..

their advertisment was actually quite disturbing...something about being given a license to kill because you were protecting a coll tobacoo company..blah blhaa..

the security threw most of the offending ads into the bin....ahhahahahahhahahaa...i got hold of one..lalallalalaaa...!!
 

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