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SMH article: offers below cutoff (1 Viewer)

D94

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While the article is not really grounded in reason, it brings up the issue of rising attendance at universities, the actual value of a degree and the cost of funding universities.

...

Yes I know it's not fair to compare a mid tier AUS uni to the 2nd best uni in the world but my goal was to illustrate a point. A top tier uni such as UNSW would of been the same story with a larger student population, a slightly large endowment and still 0 nobel prizes...
Some things to consider before making that argument is the number of universities and colleges in USA compared to Australia; our population differences and comparing on a per capita basis instead of a raw attendance count; how accessible top tier universities are in the US compared to Australia; the commuter culture of Australian universities vs on-campus; and the operation of universities.

Harvard is a private university. It has investors and they are their own hedge fund. You really cannot compare any notable Australian university to the likes of large private universities.
 

b0b101

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Some things to consider before making that argument is the number of universities and colleges in USA compared to Australia; our population differences and comparing on a per capita basis instead of a raw attendance count; how accessible top tier universities are in the US compared to Australia; the commuter culture of Australian universities vs on-campus; and the operation of universities.

Harvard is a private university. It has investors and they are their own hedge fund. You really cannot compare any notable Australian university to the likes of large private universities.
Agreed, I have not covered that at all which makes a huge difference however, people and the heads of the G08 want and advertise Australian unis to be 'World class' yet with the current funding model how will they be able to do that.
 

Dupain

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Data is wrong.

Say UNSW law has something like 100+ places for internal transfer after 1st year and their ATARs are obviously below the cut off.

Fairfax is highly left winged with their agenda. Don't support deregulation and supports the elite lazy intellectuals.
 

T-R-O-L-O-L

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Data is wrong.

Say UNSW law has something like 100+ places for internal transfer after 1st year and their ATARs are obviously below the cut off.

Fairfax is highly left winged with their agenda. Don't support deregulation and supports the elite lazy intellectuals.
ahhhh that explains everything, if it is true of course
 

pHyRe

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Data is wrong.

Say UNSW law has something like 100+ places for internal transfer after 1st year and their ATARs are obviously below the cut off.

Fairfax is highly left winged with their agenda. Don't support deregulation and supports the elite lazy intellectuals.
how is deregulation left wing out of curiosity? i havent reallylooked at it, i assume/hope it doesnt affect me
 

b0b101

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how is deregulation left wing out of curiosity? i havent reallylooked at it, i assume/hope it doesnt affect me
Deregulation is a 'right wing' policy because people who see it on the 'left side' of politics believe that it introduces barriers to people of a lower socioeconomic status in the form of uni fees thus reducing class mobility.

Personally, I think that thanks to the low interest loan that is the HECS/HELP system, deregulation is a perfectly fine concept because people only pay when they afford it. Alternatively uni's could take a variable % cut of a person's first 10 years of salaries (pre-tax).

How it affects you depends on where you are now and where you will be going as well as the current state of government. If you are doing something such as law, engineering, computer science or any other degree where the jobs available are high paying, you should be relatively fine. If you drop out or do degrees with historically lower salary potential it can severely affect you in the long term. Liberal and other 'right wing' governments are much more likely to introduce deregulation as a way of cutting expenditure.

Deregulation is supported mainly by uni's where research is the main focus (ie: go8) due to the possibility to increase fees and hence funding. Deregulation would also allow smaller, cheaper private institutions to come to the forefront to give a cheaper education usually at the cost of quality.

If you want to look at what deregulation looks like look at the U.S where huge prestigious institutions provide the best quality education at extremely high prices while smaller institutions can be known for ripping people off. I'd also advise to not bother with talk about a student loan bubble simply because you actually can't default on a student loan in the U.S, they'll just garnish your wage/salary, making them recession proof.
 
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Soulful

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UNSW bonus point scheme was getting a bit ridiculous imo (and the cutoff as well for that matter). While getting an AMus or a gold duke of ed is certainly admirable, what relevance do they have with fields like law? Is an AMus guy with a 96.9 atar really more deserving of law than someone who got 99.5 but didn't quality for any bonus points? Really, how is that in anyway a "holistic assessment of the student's potential". UNSW really should have never inflated their ATAR cut off - 99.7 was crazy and kind of forced people to resort to using bonus points (every year only 250 or so people would have made the cutoff)

However, I think the LAT is definitely a step in the right direction, and it's good to see UNSW finally offering a bonus system which rewards RELEVANT qualities (more so than duke of ed or musical talent at least)
 

RishBonjour99

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UNSW bonus point scheme was getting a bit ridiculous imo (and the cutoff as well for that matter). While getting an AMus or a gold duke of ed is certainly admirable, what relevance do they have with fields like law? Is an AMus guy with a 96.9 atar really more deserving of law than someone who got 99.5 but didn't quality for any bonus points? Really, how is that in anyway a "holistic assessment of the student's potential". UNSW really should have never inflated their ATAR cut off - 99.7 was crazy and kind of forced people to resort to using bonus points (every year only 250 or so people would have made the cutoff)

However, I think the LAT is definitely a step in the right direction, and it's good to see UNSW finally offering a bonus system which rewards RELEVANT qualities (more so than duke of ed or musical talent at least)
This is a great post.

Just to add, inflating ATAR cut-offs can be seen as another form of marketing. If a student with 99.8 ATAR had to choose between usyd and unsw law - judging just by atar points - he/she would think the one with higher atar is more in demand/better hence choose that. This applies equally to UWS and MQ their atar cut offs for law and actual cut off is way too different. Also, what kind of a signal does it send to the students if your cut off has been increasing while your competitors' decreased?
 

Ununoctium

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UNSW bonus point scheme was getting a bit ridiculous imo (and the cutoff as well for that matter). While getting an AMus or a gold duke of ed is certainly admirable, what relevance do they have with fields like law? Is an AMus guy with a 96.9 atar really more deserving of law than someone who got 99.5 but didn't quality for any bonus points? Really, how is that in anyway a "holistic assessment of the student's potential". UNSW really should have never inflated their ATAR cut off - 99.7 was crazy and kind of forced people to resort to using bonus points (every year only 250 or so people would have made the cutoff)

However, I think the LAT is definitely a step in the right direction, and it's good to see UNSW finally offering a bonus system which rewards RELEVANT qualities (more so than duke of ed or musical talent at least)
This goes for the University of Sydney too. USyd has a very generous E12 scheme, a Dux scheme (which I seriously question and criticise), and Elite Athletes and Performers, all of which can be used for their Combined Law program. It also has the normal EAS scheme for disadvantage.

I also support UNSW's development of the LAT and I hope USyd adopts the measure. While potentially imperfect, I believe the test will be able to effectively discriminate the competition, much the same the UMAT does with Medicine. The LAT will reward the passionate and determined.
 

nerdasdasd

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This goes for the University of Sydney too. USyd has a very generous E12 scheme, a Dux scheme (which I seriously question and criticise), and Elite Athletes and Performers, all of which can be used for their Combined Law program. It also has the normal EAS scheme for disadvantage.

I also support UNSW's development of the LAT and I hope USyd adopts the measure. While potentially imperfect, I believe the test will be able to effectively discriminate the competition, much the same the UMAT does with Medicine. The LAT will reward the passionate and determined.
If the LAT is anything like the UMAT, then people can get prepared for the exam and it will lose its purporse. LOok at how how many tutoring centres and companies there are for UMAT. I imagine the same will happen for LAT or any law entrance exam if it becomes mainstream.

However, we have yet to find a test that cannot be coached for. Coaching helps lift an individual’s performance in all competitions (and inflates scores): sporting or intellectual.
 

RishBonjour99

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If the LAT is anything like the UMAT, then people can get prepared for the exam and it will lose its purporse. LOok at how how many tutoring centres and companies there are for UMAT. I imagine the same will happen for LAT or any law entrance exam if it becomes mainstream.

However, we have yet to find a test that cannot be coached for. Coaching helps lift an individual’s performance in all competitions (and inflates scores): sporting or intellectual.
What is wrong with getting "prepared" for the exam? These tests are not an aptitude or natural intelligence test to see whether one has been longing all their life to study med or law (if even you did - means nothing, doesn't mean you'll be a good doctor or lawyer). They are merely an extra hurdle to cull the 1000s of students who want to enter these courses. If you are getting prepared, you are in a way showing your commitment to get in - that's what matters. LAT seems like a sound move away from ATAR driven law entry but I don't think the old system is too terrible.
 

nerdasdasd

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What is wrong with getting "prepared" for the exam? These tests are not an aptitude or natural intelligence test to see whether one has been longing all their life to study med or law (if even you did - means nothing, doesn't mean you'll be a good doctor or lawyer). They are merely an extra hurdle to cull the 1000s of students who want to enter these courses. If you are getting prepared, you are in a way showing your commitment to get in - that's what matters. LAT seems like a sound move away from ATAR driven law entry but I don't think the old system is too terrible.
I get you, but wouldn't an unpreparable exam with no past material or exam be better, if that's their aim?

"Oh right, we need to cull these students... let's make an exam and release nothing about it except on the day before and with little to no prep material?"
 

Sien

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I get you, but wouldn't an unpreparable exam with no past material or exam be better, if that's their aim?

"Oh right, we need to cull these students... let's make an exam and release nothing about it except on the day before and with little to no prep material?"
Tldr natural aptitude exam

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
 

BandSixFix

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If the LAT is anything like the UMAT, then people can get prepared for the exam and it will lose its purporse. LOok at how how many tutoring centres and companies there are for UMAT. I imagine the same will happen for LAT or any law entrance exam if it becomes mainstream.

However, we have yet to find a test that cannot be coached for. Coaching helps lift an individual’s performance in all competitions (and inflates scores): sporting or intellectual.
The LAT is nothing like the UMAT lol
 

BandSixFix

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He never said it was. He merely implied that the coaching and tutoring that occurs for UMAT will happen for LAT, hence defeating the intended purpose for the exams
Its okay, the first cohort (us) will have the 'fairest' exam since we can't go off anything
 

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