The official IR reform thread! (8 Viewers)

[townie]

So, views/feelings?

P.S. can somebody explain the reforms properley, for instance, have penalty rates been taken out of awards, if so, does that mean they dont exist or r set by legislation. does the Fair Pay Commission set ALL award pay rates, or simply minimum wage?

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Edit: Parliamentary Library: Workplace Relations Amendment (Work Choices) Act 2005

 

[townie]

btw, suprise suprise, the reforms are announced on the day corby gets sentenced, how convenient

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I know. The amount of activity on the forums with regard to Corby compared with IR probably reflects the distraction of the Australian public.

It's unfortunate -- whether the IR reforms are good or not, it is an important issue and event that people should be aware of

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I find the unfair dismissal changes rather distasteful.

some indiot employer on the ABC last night said that would now be able to employ more people because he doesnt have to put up with unfair dismissal laws

lol

Though the unfair dismissal laws will only cease to apply to business of 100 people or less, so he won't be too happy

 

[spin spin sugar]

it's fucked up. i'm sure no one can dispute that

 

[Riewe]

I guess that most small businesses have quite a bit of trouble staying afloat (and this is debatable is Howard got them into that position, but i degress), and having incompetent staff does not help them at all. At least this way, they can get the most out of their employees and thus overall productivity is increased.

I think that is how it is supposed to work, but there is only one way to find out.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

These are the main parts of the reforms:

• Exempting businesses with up to 100 employees from unfair dismissal laws
• The establishment of a new fair pay commission to set minimum wages, currently set by the Industrial Relations Commission
• A simplified award system that would no longer cover provision for long service leave, termination notice, superannuation and jury duty, as these are covered by other legislation
• A single national industrial relations system

I guess that most small businesses have quite a bit of trouble staying afloat (and this is debatable is Howard got them into that position, but i degress), and having incompetent staff does not help them at all. At least this way, they can get the most out of their employees and thus overall productivity is increased.

I think that is how it is supposed to work, but there is only one way to find out.

Also it allows employers to put more pressure on workers; they know they can be fired much more easily and so they will work harder to please those higher in the company.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

The ACTU has said it will challenge the legislation, which could be very exciting! It would involve a battle in the High Court over whether the legislation is within the powers of the Commonwealth.

Although I highly doubt the legislation would be unconstitutional... as I understand it the corporations power in s 52 is wide enough to encompass the reforms.

 

[absolution*]

Graduating with fairly stable qualifications i really have no major gripe with the reforms except for the allowable matters changes.

 

[spin spin sugar]

your qualification has absolutely nothing to do with the reforms jonathon. if you have no major gripe with them, then you don't understand them.

The new 'fair pay' commission is something which really grosses me out... as i understand it, the new wages will be set at what they consider a 'reasonable' amount due to economic conditions. it's like an official way of announcing we're going the way of america, economic rationalism to an extreme. who cares about workers rights, equality, or people as a group... it's all just condensed into numbers. urgh.

how they can call it 'fair pay' on that premise... is almost laughable

 

[Generator]

The future looks bright, if you possess skills that are highly sought after, that is. If not, well, provided that the economy remains strong and you aren't that concerned about any real sense of security, then you should be fine.

So much for an egalitarian society. We must pander to the market at all costs, so I'm afraid that it is time for the country's IR system to 'evolve', no matter the social costs (social costs that appear to be forever ignored in today's "it's the economy, stupid" world). I'm sure that the argument that the market, along with a few basic regulatory systems, can achieve social sustainability is quite strong, but it isn't something that I or many others agree with. Relatively strong and effective regulatory action can provide the framework for a productive, sustainable and relatively free economy in both an economic and social sense, but I doubt that that's an option for the current government.

I'm not suggesting that the current framework is something that is in no need of reform, but I do believe that the apparent balance of power between the employers and employees at the current time is much better than that that will be evident under the proposed/to be established system.


Just a highly subjective rant from one of the board's increasingly cynical whingers .

 

[Rorix]

Moonlight is there any major difference between the considerations of the Fair Pay Commission and the current IRC when determining wage?

spin please don't answer, your post in this thread so far hasn't exactly established your well founded knowledge of the existing system

 

[spin spin sugar]

Australian IR is headed in a scary direction and has been for years - anyone who knows even a little bit about it would be aware of this. i have no faith in all the changes they're going to make. they will probably end up spending more on social security this way... idiots.

 

[spin spin sugar]

Moonlight is there any major difference between the considerations of the Fair Pay Commission and the current IRC when determining wage?

spin please don't answer, your post in this thread so far hasn't exactly established your well founded knowledge of the existing system

fuck off idiot, if you knew anything about it you would know i'm informed.

The fair pay commission is, according to the SMH, going to be comprised of key business/economic figures, to determine wages according to what is desirable in existing economic environments. so, basically, at the whim of the market - rather than the IRC determining the wages according to output, input, fundamental "workplace issues" etc.

 

[Rorix]

Australian IR is headed in a scary direction and has been for years - anyone who knows even a little bit about it would be aware of this.

What does scary mean? Most economists would consider the old system of centralised wage fixing scary. Workers who were highly productive and were paid the same as the guy who turned up 15 hours and week to show his face would consider the centralised wage system scary. Your posts always have some hugely exaggerated statement with a minute basis in fact e.g. the USU services post.

i have no faith in all the changes they're going to make. they will probably end up spending more on social security this way... idiots.

So you think that this is going to increase unemployment and have an overall net impact on the budget?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The reforms have been a long time comming.

 

[Rorix]

fuck off idiot, if you knew anything about it you would know i'm informed.

So far every single one of your posts but the following quote has been to the contrary.

No need to get so emotional over the internet.

The fair pay commission is, according to the SMH, going to be comprised of key business/economic figures, to determine wages according to what is desirable in existing economic environments.

Do you know what this means?

Are you seriously trying to suggest to me that we should have 10% unemployment, or 5% inflation and a general slowing of economic growth and living standards because the 'workers are better off under that system'?

 

[absolution*]

Unfortunately you just cant argue with an 14% increase in real wages since WRA in 1996 and sustained economic growth under Howard.

And i think my future qualifications have a lot to do with how i view the changes. - "The future looks bright, if you possess skills that are highly sought after, that is..."

 

[spin spin sugar]

What does scary mean? Most economists would consider the old system of centralised wage fixing scary. Workers who were highly productive and were paid the same as the guy who turned up 15 hours and week to show his face would consider the centralised wage system scary. Your posts always have some hugely exaggerated statement with a minute basis in fact e.g. the USU services post.

maybe it's because i don't really care to argue with any great skill on the internet, with a bunch of cockheads like yourself? i like to read the forum to see the opinions of a few posters on here, but i'm really not that concerned. rip my debating skill apart, i really couldnt give a shit. if something bothers me, i'll say it, if i can't back it up..... whatever. thats my problem. so care less.

So you think that this is going to increase unemployment and have an overall net impact on the budget?

not simply unemployment. health care, etc... stress levels related to employment have been rising steadily for years. the workplace is a stressful environment now. the government will end up paying in all kinds of ways they wouldnt have anticipated. but thats my opinion.. i tend to think the health of a nation should be measured through means other than GDP%.

 

[spin spin sugar]

Unfortunately you just cant argue with an 14% increase in real wages since WRA in 1996 and sustained economic growth under Howard.

And i think my future qualifications have a lot to do with how i view the changes. - "The future looks bright, if you possess skills that are highly sought after, that is..."

so go be an accountant then. but if you want to do anything else, you will end up being effected.