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Thoughts on Israel's offence in Gaza (1 Viewer)

Comrade nathan

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What are your thoughts on the recent offenceive into the the northern part of Gaza. They claim to be doing this to retialiate the recent rockets that were fired into occuipide Israel zone. It is rather contradicotry when Israel Prime Minister Ariel Sharon started to pull troops out of Gaza and said that he would remove settlements. Now i have heard that he may not remove settlements.

Israel Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's bloody offensive through the northern Gaza Strip, which has claimed more than 85 Palestinian lives, nearly 30 of them children
- Aljazeera 8th ocotober.
 

Not-That-Bright

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From what i've seen, the palestinian leaders took it serious when Sharon decided to pull out, they believed him because he had never said it before. Of course however.. they don't have enough power over the situation, they said they would stop attacks but the terrorist groups simply increased their attacks.
 

Comrade nathan

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Well attacks will increase now but rather rockets aimed at Israel tanks not settlements, they have apparantly destroyed two tanks.
 

Atticus.

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im so sick of that damm likud government in power n israel. bring back labor i say.
 

Bone577

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Not-That-Bright said:
From what i've seen, the palestinian leaders took it serious when Sharon decided to pull out, they believed him because he had never said it before. Of course however.. they don't have enough power over the situation, they said they would stop attacks but the terrorist groups simply increased their attacks.

Terrorist groups? Increase attacks? Jeeze man you need to rethink the whole issue.
How bout straight from the hoarses mouth on the issue? Just so you know David Ben-Gurion is the father of Israel and head-of-state.

"In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a Nationalist revolt …David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’… The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality."

Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."


Heres more:
"While the Yishuv`s leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israeli society- including…Ben Gurion- were opposed to or extremely unhappy with the partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state’s borders beyond the UN-earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians.

"Israeli Historian, Benny Morris,
in "Tikun", March/April 1998.

The partition is the splitting of Palestine and the mandate of the state of Israel.


‘In internal discussion in 1938,[David Ben-Gurion] stated that’ after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine… The state will only be a stage in the realization of Zionism and its task is to prepare the ground for our expansion into the whole of Palestine’… In 1948, Menahem Begin declared that: ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever.’ "

Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle"


The above basically sais that Israel will ignore any splitting and sharing of Palestine with the Palestinians and will expand to Palestines entirety regardless.


"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce TransJordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. ‘We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.’"

David Ben Gurion, in 1936, "

"The main danger which Israel as a ‘Jewish state’, poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbours, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim…No Zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion`s idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of the Biblical Borders as the borders of the Jewish State."

Israeli Professor, Israel Shahak,
"Jewish History, Jewish religion: The Weight of 3000 years."


" ‘[Ben – Gurion stated], ‘ If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second- because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that ‘ the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘ Zionism is in danger.’ "

Israeli historian, Tom Segev,
"The Seventh Million. ""




And above all, probably one of the most important quotes to do with the whole issue:


" "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion quoted in
"The Jewish Paradox"by Nahum Goldmann,
former president of the World Jewish Congress."




These are all from the father of Israel himself, a realist, a zionist and a bastard of the highest magnitude.



Does this sound like "terrorism" or resistance?
 

Comrade nathan

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Thats cleared alot up from me. I never knew there was evidence like that, that clearly shows the Zionist intentions. I have always believe Israel had not right to exist but now from the mouth of the originiator i strenghting that belief.

Ill have to get that Noam Chomsky book. Chomsky is defiently the man of this centuary of political thought.
 

Tommy_Lamp

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If only America werent Isreal's ally this would all be fixed, seeing as everytime a resolution is presented at the security council, the US veto.
 

thorrnydevil

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Israel stole Palestines land. Just because the Jews have suffered, and they have suffered imensley, doesn't mean they can punish peoples of other lands and cultures.
 

astro

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thorrnydevil said:
Israel stole Palestines land. Just because the Jews have suffered, and they have suffered imensley, doesn't mean they can punish peoples of other lands and cultures.

For the first time in my boredofstudies life, i actually have to agree with you....i have nothing against Jews, but i don't see why they must continue this conflict. Then again, Palestinians should also try and make an effort in reconciliation....

The oppressed has become the oppressor.....
 

thorrnydevil

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astro said:
For the first time in my boredofstudies life, i actually have to agree with you....i have nothing against Jews, but i don't see why they must continue this conflict. Then again, Palestinians should also try and make an effort in reconciliation....

The oppressed has become the oppressor.....
Its a bit hard for Palestine to "make an effort in reconciliation" when the Israels are knocking down their homes, schools and community centres.

(BTW, I'm not trying to pay you out)
 

astro

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yeah, but there are also palestinian suicide bombers who are killing Israeli people...an eye for an eye.....they should BOTH try to resolve this seemingly never ending conflict.
 

thorrnydevil

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astro said:
yeah, but there are also palestinian suicide bombers who are killing Israeli people...an eye for an eye.....they should BOTH try to resolve this seemingly never ending conflict.
I agree that it is a "never ending conflict," however, whereas the Israels has the power and means to stop it, the Palestinian government doesn't.
 

Bone577

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The Palestinians have went to great lengths to try and end the conflict, which have been denied by the US and Israeli government.

Multiple peace treaties have been presented and such. The only peace plans ever tried out by Israel have been farces. One only needs look at the stipulations of the Oslo peace accord for example to see how unjust the land distribution is.


You will also notice that there are ALOT of Israeli Jews that are zealously against Israeli expansionism, Noam Chomsky himself is a Jew, although weather he follows the religion or not is unknown to me.
All the quotes i gave have been brought together by one organisation, Jews For Justice In The Middle East.
The only people who care as much about the injustice suffered by the Palestinians as much as the Arabs are Jews, funnily enough.
 

Bone577

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Funnily enough though Chomsky IS a zionist. Just not in the same way Gurion or any of the Israeli leadership was since he left.

He supports a bi-national state, with Palestinians and Israelites living under a common leadership, encompassing all of Palestine + Israel.


As for Gurion style zionism... I don't see how anybody with any respect for human rights can champion it.
 
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Bambul

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In the 2000 Camp David Summit Ehud Barak made the most concessional offers to Yasser Arafat, giving the Palestinians most of the Palestinian demands (though not all - Israel would still annex some Palestinian land and refugees would be allowed back only into Palestine, not Israel). Even if it was accepted, it probably wouldn't have been passed by the Israeli parliment (because of the consessions to the Palestinians). Instead, Arafat walked away and we got the infatada.

Similarly (though with Arab states, not Palestine itself) Israel had for decades offered to give back the land it took from Arab countries (the Sinai penninsula, Golan Heights, Gaza, West Bank) in exchange for peace. The arab states refused every time. It isn't Israel who is not willing to make peace.

Until people start realising that both sides are suffering - Palestinians and Israelis, Arabs and Jews - there won't be a peace. People with opinions I have read here concern me just as much as those who believe in an Israel that spans from Egypt to Iraq (and there are some who believe this and fervently oppose any giving back of lands, as was done with the Sinai) or who would have no second thoughts about expelling all Palestinian Arabs from Israel/Palastine to Jordan to create a single state on the land. I'm opposed to both (so were this to have been a very pro-Israeli thread I would be strongly opposing most of what was being said).
 

Not-That-Bright

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Isreal is definately willing to make peace.... they need to in order to survive..
However i'm not sure if some members of the isreali parliament would actually pass these type of measures
 

Bone577

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Bambul said:
In the 2000 Camp David Summit Ehud Barak made the most concessional offers to Yasser Arafat, giving the Palestinians most of the Palestinian demands (though not all - Israel would still annex some Palestinian land and refugees would be allowed back only into Palestine, not Israel). Even if it was accepted, it probably wouldn't have been passed by the Israeli parliment (because of the consessions to the Palestinians). Instead, Arafat walked away and we got the infatada.
Do you even know the nature of the non-official 2000 camp david proposals? I would be very interested in knowing exactly what these "concessional offers" are. As far as i can find anywhere there are no official documentations of it, there were a few unofficial maps published but there is no real sign of any serious deals at all. Even the maps that do exist merit very little attention at all.

For example the first thing to pop up about maps and Camp David 2000 gives you this:
"The details of the proposals are still secret at this time. Israel claims that they were far reaching and generous."

Also take into account that "During the final Barak-Clinton year (2000), the rate of settlement was the highest since 1992, before Oslo, under Sharon." (Chomsky).




It is natural Arafat would walk away, i would hardly call the offer of splitting Palestine into 40 or so "bantustans" using South African apartheid as a model, the annexation of more Palestinian land and the dissalowance of the refugees to return to there lands (all of which are grevious crimes mind you) a "generous" or "concessional". Criminal would be accurate though.



My sources for half of this is:
http://www.mideastweb.org/campdavid2.htm

Similarly (though with Arab states, not Palestine itself) Israel had for decades offered to give back the land it took from Arab countries (the Sinai penninsula, Golan Heights, Gaza, West Bank) in exchange for peace. The arab states refused every time. It isn't Israel who is not willing to make peace.
Please tell me which countries you are referring to and when these offers were made.



Until people start realising that both sides are suffering - Palestinians and Israelis, Arabs and Jews - there won't be a peace. People with opinions I have read here concern me just as much as those who believe in an Israel that spans from Egypt to Iraq (and there are some who believe this and fervently oppose any giving back of lands, as was done with the Sinai) or who would have no second thoughts about expelling all Palestinian Arabs from Israel/Palastine to Jordan to create a single state on the land. I'm opposed to both (so were this to have been a very pro-Israeli thread I would be strongly opposing most of what was being said).
There is one group that isn't suffering, the Zionists. They care little about the suffering of even Jews.

‘[Ben – Gurion stated], ‘ If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second- because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that ‘ the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘ Zionism is in danger.’ "

Israeli historian, Tom Segev,
"The Seventh Million. "


The truth does not lie in the middle of two perspectives which you deem to be the extremes.
 

Bone577

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Not-That-Bright said:
Isreal is definately willing to make peace.... they need to in order to survive..
However i'm not sure if some members of the isreali parliament would actually pass these type of measures

I hardly see how they need to make peace to survive, they are the 9th most powerful nation militarily.


What you are saying is that Israel as a country needs to make peace? Well i do think that the vast majority of Israelis want peace, that is a given. But you are right in saying the government would not allow such things, and that is the point i am making here.
 

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