Various Commerce Degrees - Pros/Cons, Student Experiences (2 Viewers)

[maratyeu]

The people with all the ECs and leadership opportunities get everything sweet. They bloody get all the scholarships and interships throughout university, then they get all the jobs when they graduate. They bloody get paid to go to university. UNSW Co op $15 000 a year for going to university, I bloody want that. Get into Co op and you are basically set for life, Co op becomes your EC. Unfortunately, they always go to some snob private school kids, the rich helping the rich :|. Man, this is bullshit! All because some tossers in Human Resources seem to think that people with ECs are SO MUCH better. I work my ass off at university and I get stuff all, no scholarships and it will be very difficult for me to get a job (even though I have pretty good marks and know the material well).

It is true if you come from more prestigious private/selective school there greater opportunities available to you as these schools have been there and done that so many times over.
Like you I went to a school where students are "good with there hands" so they school never dealt with these sort of opportunities for students.

Once I went to Uni its was like WTF these stuff exists and you just learn its too late for that now. So you might as well make the most of it while you at Uni. But even then some people travel so far to Uni and have such long hours its really just not possible.

Anyways as a graduate you really have little to no practical skills to offer employers. So they'll rather train someone who is better looking and more "worldly" than someone whos not. Can you blame them?

 

[johnys]

Do economics so you can pretend that you can model incredibly complex systems based on moronic simplifying assumptions and working around an idea of equilibrium when in fact the real economy is in an infinite state of disequilibrium. ceteris paribus my ass.. Ricardian equivalence my ass... Market supply/demand curves based on aggregates of individuals MY ASSSS... What's even worse are the muppets "I'm doing eco but not the 'mathsy' courses".
(Aimed at eco students who think they're studying a 'science')

 

[tambam]

The people with all the ECs and leadership opportunities get everything sweet. They bloody get all the scholarships and interships throughout university, then they get all the jobs when they graduate. They bloody get paid to go to university. UNSW Co op $15 000 a year for going to university, I bloody want that. Get into Co op and you are basically set for life, Co op becomes your EC. Unfortunately, they always go to some snob private school kids, the rich helping the rich :|. Man, this is bullshit! All because some tossers in Human Resources seem to think that people with ECs are SO MUCH better. I work my ass off at university and I get stuff all, no scholarships and it will be very difficult for me to get a job (even though I have pretty good marks and know the material well).

I know plenty of coop kids who aren't 'rich private school snobs'.
The difference is that people with ECs and leadership skills have more to offer an employer than just good marks.

 

[fortune_cookie]

Do economics so you can pretend that you can model incredibly complex systems based on moronic simplifying assumptions and working around an idea of equilibrium when in fact the real economy is in an infinite state of disequilibrium. ceteris paribus my ass.. Ricardian equivalence my ass... Market supply/demand curves based on aggregates of individuals MY ASSSS... What's even worse are the muppets "I'm doing eco but not the 'mathsy' courses".
(Aimed at eco students who think they're studying a 'science')

lol, of course it's not 100% a science. Same with everything in business, there is isn't always an exact formula. It's never possible to get 100% correct data in the real world and everything they do in economics and finance is based on simplifying assumptions. You have got to realise that everything is not like mathematics, you cannot get data correct to 20 decimal points in any practical application (you are lucky if you can even get data correct to one decimal place. Do you realise that it is impossible to get 100% accurate economic data?). You have to get out of the mentality of thinking that everything in the world is exact.

 

[johnys]

Can economic analysis reliably predict anything though?
In a science if what is observed does not correlate to theory then the theory is ripped down and started again, instead of getting the basics right economists build their 'complex' models on top of foundations that are meaningless ideological constructs. A market comprised of millions of 'rational' people who consider every single opportunity cost based on a hypothetical measurement of 'utility' when making every decision, sounds about right.. Every speculative bubble in history is a testament to the failure of the 'market', too much government intervention in the 'market? The GFC, they say not enough government intervention in the 'market'!
Not to mention the idea of equilibrium is built on a world operating under fixed currency systems based on taxation and distribution, where in reality sovereign currency governments have no constraint on expenditure.. Socially optimal? More like ideologically socially optimal based on theoretical economies that existed 40 years ago.

 

[seremify007]

Can economic analysis reliably predict anything though?
In a science if what is observed does not correlate to theory then the theory is ripped down and started again, instead of getting the basics right economists build their 'complex' models on top of foundations that are meaningless ideological constructs. A market comprised of millions of 'rational' people who consider every single opportunity cost based on a hypothetical measurement of 'utility' when making every decision, sounds about right.. Every speculative bubble in history is a testament to the failure of the 'market', too much government intervention in the 'market? The GFC, they say not enough government intervention in the 'market'!
Not to mention the idea of equilibrium is built on a world operating under fixed currency systems based on taxation and distribution, where in reality sovereign currency governments have no constraint on expenditure.. Socially optimal? More like ideologically socially optimal based on theoretical economies that existed 40 years ago.

Am I the only one who missed where anyone claimed economics or commerce was a science?

 

[seremify007]

The people with all the ECs and leadership opportunities get everything sweet. They bloody get all the scholarships and interships throughout university, then they get all the jobs when they graduate. They bloody get paid to go to university. UNSW Co op $15 000 a year for going to university, I bloody want that. Get into Co op and you are basically set for life, Co op becomes your EC. Unfortunately, they always go to some snob private school kids, the rich helping the rich :|. Man, this is bullshit! All because some tossers in Human Resources seem to think that people with ECs are SO MUCH better. I work my ass off at university and I get stuff all, no scholarships and it will be very difficult for me to get a job (even though I have pretty good marks and know the material well).

Mate, play the hand you're dealt. Just like tambam mentioned, I too know plenty of people who got scholarships and cadetships who had plenty of ECs and weren't from private schools. You don't need to go to a private school to volunteer to help at a nursing home, to do the Red Shield door knock appeal, to be involved in a sport, to get a job at Maccas, to be in chess club, to join cadets, or one of the many other things you could be doing.

At the end of the day, ECs demonstrate you have skills beyond academics (which really don't count for much at all) and actually make you useful/employable. With enough time and effort any monkey can memorise a book, but it's the softer skills which you typically develop by undertaking other activities or having a part time job which are valuable to employers.

I've come to realise from your posts (and your inability to reply to PMs or anything actually directed at challenging you) that you have a very flawed view on the various fields of Commerce which you have taken on from your tutors/peers, and you think that you're being screwed over because you didn't have XYZ which other people had. Suck it up and stop moaning, pick yourself up, do something now, and then go try things yourself. Base your opinions on what you see/think instead of relying on what you hear.

 

[twistedrebel]

I know people from normal public schools getting into co -op.

if your some guy who has 0 work experience but say decent marks (75 WAM) compared to a kid who has had a job but 65 WAM i would always pick the kid with the job/EC. Why? He has time management to be employed and study, he has work experience working with difficult customers /clients, working in team, taking orders from management, working on deadlines and much more.

 

[fortune_cookie]

Mate, play the hand you're dealt. Just like tambam mentioned, I too know plenty of people who got scholarships and cadetships who had plenty of ECs and weren't from private schools. You don't need to go to a private school to volunteer to help at a nursing home, to do the Red Shield door knock appeal, to be involved in a sport, to get a job at Maccas, to be in chess club, to join cadets, or one of the many other things you could be doing.

At the end of the day, ECs demonstrate you have skills beyond academics (which really don't count for much at all) and actually make you useful/employable. With enough time and effort any monkey can memorise a book, but it's the softer skills which you typically develop by undertaking other activities or having a part time job which are valuable to employers.

I've come to realise from your posts (and your inability to reply to PMs or anything actually directed at challenging you) that you have a very flawed view on the various fields of Commerce which you have taken on from your tutors/peers, and you think that you're being screwed over because you didn't have XYZ which other people had. Suck it up and stop moaning, pick yourself up, do something now, and then go try things yourself. Base your opinions on what you see/think instead of relying on what you hear.

Well, I have had a job for at least like 5 years. I also did scouts when I was in high school and have been doing surf life saving stuff since primary school. Yes, I haven't been as actively involved as others, but I have done some things. I still had no chance at getting a scholarship when I was up against snob prefects from sydney boys and other private/selective high schools.

I don't know, it's just the fact that it is expected that you are meant to be doing these things to get a scholarship/job that annoys me. If you were to really look at it. How many people doing volunteer work and other stuff are really doing it because they care at heart? Very few. They are just doing it because they have been taught that this is the way to get scholarships and jobs. It is quite sad that it has become the expectation of today's society. Also, think about it. Of course moneybags from a private school can do volunteer work , they don't have to worry about doing paid work to get their own income.

Anyway, the discussion is getting off topic.

 

[seremify007]

Well, I have had a job for at least like 5 years. I don't know, it's just the fact that it is expected that you are meant to be doing these things to get a scholarship/job that annoys me. If you were to really look at it. How many people doing volunteer work and other stuff are really doing it because they care at heart? Very few. They are just doing it because they have been taught that this is the way to get scholarships and jobs. It is quite sad that it has become the expectation of today's society. Also, think about it. Of course moneybags from a private school can do volunteer work , they don't have to worry about doing paid work to get their own income.

Anyway, the discussion is getting off topic.

It doesn't have to be volunteer work for it to count as EC. I went to a government school and I started up a student uniform committee, a scrabble club and was even one of the original members of the chess club. I did these because I cared and wanted to do something about them. It has absolutely nothing to do with being in a private school or volunteer work. Even if many people do it for their own self benefit, so what? You complaining that all these people only did XYZ work because they wanted to learn skills and make themselves more attractive to a scholarship or cadetship doesn't make you any more suitable for those roles (or them any less).

Like many have mentioned before, it's expected because it's a good way to demonstrate that you both a) have useful and relevant skills to the workforce/employer/scholarship sponsors; and b) have a bit of depth to you outside of the field of academics. Let's not also forget that being able to commit to something whether it be a part time job, charity/community work or some other EC also shows you are able to be disciplined, balanced in your workload/time management and able to dedicate yourself to something.

ps. I think this discussion is still a natural flow on from the OP but if it gets too much I'll split it into a new thread.

 

[fortune_cookie]

I will just say one more thing. Look at the UNSW scholarship and Co op website for past scholarship winners. Out of like 20 profiles they have up , 17 people are from selective/private schools. Seems pretty biased to me....

It's always good seeing the pictures of the rich private school kids on Co op in all their suits and such...

Something like 50-60% of scholarship winners were prefects. Well, if you weren't a prefect you definately have the odds stacked against you. Even if you were a prefect at a public school it still wouldn't increase your chances by much, given the obvious bias in favour of private/selective schools.

 

[seremify007]

I will just say one more thing. Look at the UNSW scholarship and Co op website for past scholarship winners. Out of like 20 profiles they have up , 17 people are from selective/private schools. Seems pretty biased to me....

It's always good seeing the pictures of the rich private school kids on Co op in all their suits and such...

Something like 50-60% of scholarship winners were prefects. Well, if you weren't a prefect you definately have the odds stacked against you. Even if you were a prefect at a public school it still wouldn't increase your chances by much, given the obvious bias in favour of private/selective schools.

Biased? Because they picked people who they thought would be more suitable for their scholarship/cadetships? A scholarship/cadetship isn't so much a prize to be won but rather it is an opportunity afforded to those who are believed to be able to make the most out of it. It isn't free money in either case- it's the opportunity to gain experience by working and to receive some form of compensation/remuneration for it.

Hypothetically, if I created a club called the "I want an accounting coop scholarship club" where discuss what the program involved, what the application process had, how to write a good cover letter, how to find out about the accounting coop program, etc... it would naturally attract people who were interested in the accounting coop program, and more likely than not, were determined to do well and get in. By your logic, if it should so happen that the people in my club represented a high proportion of those who actually got the scholarship, then the scholarship selection process must be biased. Do you see the flaw in your logic yet? Your argument is also akin to those who claim the HSC is biased because it favours those from selective high schools.

Seriously, if you keep this chip on your shoulder for any longer you're going to end up miserable (and unemployed).

ps. I wasn't a prefect in my school, and I was in a government school.
pps. Anyone can look good in a suit- just get it cut well and even a $99 suit from Man 2 Man can look decent. That's what I wore to my interviews.

 

[Shadowdude]

Well of course they'll be selective about that. If they put up most profiles from Dubbo College or whatever - then what impression does that have on the degree?

You want to promote that you have kids from Ruse, Baulkham Hills, North Sydney Boys/Girls or whatever the good schools are because that creates a good impression of the degree - and you have to remember you're advertising.

 

[fortune_cookie]

Seriously, if you keep this chip on your shoulder for any longer you're going to end up miserable (and unemployed).

.

I am not miserable. I am a little pissed off bout it but what can you do. I have a bit of fun in dismissing the Scholarships office as a "rich man's club". I had a job for 5yrs, I did scouts throughout high school and have done surf club stuff for like 5 years. I was a consistent worker throughout high school from year 7 to year 12 and was consistently ranked high. I literally did not miss a single day of school in my high school years (I am basically immune to everything, I never get sick) and I still didn't have a chance at a scholarship.

I haven't really done anything extra since I started university. There is no point applying for scholarships as a current student, it is simply not worth the time and ink to have the application immediately thrown in the bin. I have got very good marks throughout university. Last year I got three mid 90's , I must have been something like 2nd or 3rd in the course. I still bloody get no scholarships or anything for that. All this while all the people on Co op get $16 000/year and just need to maintain a WAM of 75 to keep their scholarship.

 

[Cl324]

I will just say one more thing. Look at the UNSW scholarship and Co op website for past scholarship winners. Out of like 20 profiles they have up , 17 people are from selective/private schools. Seems pretty biased to me....

Something like 50-60% of scholarship winners were prefects. Well, if you weren't a prefect you definately have the odds stacked against you. Even if you were a prefect at a public school it still wouldn't increase your chances by much, given the obvious bias in favour of private/selective schools.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Selective/Private schools attract the people that these people look for. Not only is the cutoff for co-op very high (96.7?) but for the courses offered: engineering, commerce etc. they probably prefer students who do 3u/4u maths. Most non selective schools will have an mx2 class of like <10 and in selective schools you'll have a cohort about of 50+. Participation in chess club, debating and things like that are also higher at private and selective schools.

Seriously once you stop blaming future job prospects on what high school you went to, you'll probably find you'll go further in life.

 

[seremify007]

I am not miserable. I am a little pissed off bout it but what can you do. I have a bit of fun in dismissing the Scholarships office as a "rich man's club". I had a job for 5yrs, I did scouts throughout high school and have done surf club stuff for like 5 years. I was a consistent worker throughout high school from year 7 to year 12 and was consistently ranked high. I literally did not miss a single day of school in my high school years (I am basically immune to everything, I never get sick) and I still didn't have a chance at a scholarship.

I haven't really done anything extra since I started university. There is no point applying for scholarships as a current student, it is simply not worth the time and ink to have the application immediately thrown in the bin. I have got very good marks throughout university. Last year I got three mid 90's , I must have been something like 2nd or 3rd in the course. I still bloody get no scholarships or anything for that. All this while all the people on Co op get $16 000/year and just need to maintain a WAM of 75 to keep their scholarship.

I think you put too much of a focus on marks. You may be able to use that to get into the most elite of finance jobs which require it, but for the majority of Commerce jobs, the reality is that academics don't mean much because you don't need to be brilliant at memorising books/syllabus/lecture slides. As I have mentioned above and many others are aware, it's the softer skills which employers want. Employes are the ones who fund those scholarships and the coop placements so naturally they want people who they can employ in the future. Maybe you might want to consider actually getting involved in things whilst you are at uni whether it be through societies, sports, or just things outside of the uni in general (community, team sports, volunteer work, etc).

In all honesty based on what you said about year 7 to 12, I'm surprised you didn't get a scholarship/cadetship or at least get through to the final rounds of selection. Maybe you didn't apply for the right ones, or you didn't come across as being a suitable person either in the application process or the interviews (e.g. did you attend the various info sessions/evenings?). It's too late now so no point thinking about it too much but I'd also challenge you to actually do some research and try to find out more about the various fields rather than dismissing them (e.g. your posts in the accounting threads) without really having much of an understanding of what the fields involve. It's not too late.

 

[fortune_cookie]

Maybe you didn't apply for the right ones, or you didn't come across as being a suitable person either in the application process or the interviews (e.g. did you attend the various info sessions/evenings?)..

My application was thrown in the bin long before any interview.

The most annoying thing seems to be that you only get one shot at getting into Co op. You either get it straight out of high school, or you don't get it all. It's not like you can even un seat someone else that is currently holding it. Once you have it you just need 75 WAM to hold it, but it's impossible to get anything if you attempt in 2nd or 3rd year.

 

[seremify007]

My application was thrown in the bin long before any interview.

The most annoying thing seems to be that you only get one shot at getting into Co op. You either get it straight out of high school, or you don't get it all. It's not like you can even un seat someone else that is currently holding it. Once you have it you just need 75 WAM to hold it, but it's impossible to get anything if you attempt in 2nd or 3rd year.

What are you on about? As far back as I can remember, the coop program always has people who drop out, and sometimes the sponsors put up additional places. These are typically advertised either on the coop website or before lectures (literally before the lecture session commences). I remember when I was in uni, accounting coop at least always had a few spots open up each year for students already underway through their degree (depending on at what level did the coop scholar drop out or what the sponsoring firms/employers want).

ps. I'm 100% sure of the above and I know this from personal experience.

 

[fortune_cookie]

What are you on about? As far back as I can remember, the coop program always has people who drop out, and sometimes the sponsors put up additional places. These are typically advertised either on the coop website or before lectures (literally before the lecture session commences). I remember when I was in uni, accounting coop at least always had a few spots open up each year for students already underway through their degree (depending on at what level did the coop scholar drop out or what the sponsoring firms/employers want).

ps. I'm 100% sure of the above and I know this from personal experience.

Yeah, I check the website every few weeks and it is very unlikely that anything is open. All of the times I checked, there have been no scholarships open. Why would anyone want to give up a Co op scholarship? It would only be in extreme circumstances when someone would just give it up. The only other reason a spot might open up is if the student is not maintaining the required WAM.

Yeah, one spot might open up once every blue moon. Then you get 200 students applying for the one spot. Chances of you getting it are still very small (probably even lower than if you were applying straight from high school).

 

[seremify007]

Yeah, I check the website every few weeks and it is very unlikely that anything is open. All of the times I checked, there have been no scholarships open. Why would anyone want to give up a Co op scholarship? It would only be in extreme circumstances when someone would just give it up. The only other reason a spot might open up is if the student is not maintaining the required WAM.

Yeah, one spot might open up once every blue moon. Then you get 200 students applying for the one spot. Chances of you getting it are still very small (probably even lower than if you were applying straight from high school).

Many reasons why people would want to give up a scholarship particularly in the Commerce fields. After all, this is Gen Y and you can only hold onto someone's interest until they find something else they'd rather do whether it be to go to an international university, go on exchange, join a sponsoring organisation early (as opposed to waiting until graduate applications time), taking on a cadetship, switching degrees, etc... Even if it's 200 to 1 or whatever hypothetical odds you give it, does that mean you shouldn't bother trying? Clearly you don't put much of a priority on getting a scholarship or whatever and you would rather sit to the side and complain that life is unfair.

It does disappoint me that you view the process with such a negative mindset, and to be honest, I'd say that would be one of the key reasons you didn't get it. If you really have such a negative view on the program, the industry, etc... why would anyone want you to be on the program?

Given that you are in your 2nd year or later (I think?) it probably is approaching the too late point so the best you can do is to get ECs or something to put on your application/CV/resumes because otherwise you're going to have deja vu. I don't know what career path you're planning but more likely than not, academics alone won't get you a job (unless you're so damn brilliant that you need absolutely no other soft skills or abilities to be employable in the role... like a robot).