What's the appeal of Law? (2 Viewers)

[circusmind]

I have been to this open day and that's what they told me. unsw is app ranked top in terms of law and the first grad gets like 41xxxx a year.

Okay. I don't think that figure is accurate, but even so...what's your point?

 

[omniscience]

Okay. I don't think that figure is accurate, but even so...what's your point?

shit pay.

 

[circusmind]

shit pay.

Depends what you do with it, really.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Mahlab produces annual salary surveys and analyses of the legal profession. Mahlab's 2008 salary analysis is briefly summarised on Legal Business Online's website. Looks pretty good to me:

Lawyer salaries unaffected by economic turmoil

By Richard Szabo | Monday, 4 August 2008

Private practice lawyer salaries have remained largely unaffected by the recent economic uncertainty, according to a survey by Mahlab Recruitment.

The study surveyed hundreds of Australian law firms and found that most salary bands observed an average 4.6% increase nationally.

Although there has been a market slump in the US and UK, it had not impacted upon the Australian market until the very end of the 2007-2008 financial year. Growth in the resources and energy sectors has helped counter this.

Partner earnings increased on average by 11.1% nationally, compared to 7.1% for the previous period. Individual salaries rose 20.4%, an increase from 14% in 2007 and 8% in 2006.

Research also revealed that salary bands in Brisbane and Perth have increased significantly more than in Melbourne and Sydney. Nationally, individual salaries increased by 20.4%.

In addition to this, 26% of respondents received a bonus and a third of firms have introduced structured bonus schemes, where lawyers are rewarded on the basis of their achievement.

A surprising 52% are considering leaving their current employer: 28% are contemplating working at a large firm, 23% want to go to a smaller or boutique firm and 21% want to work overseas.

Of those who want to go overseas, 48% want to go to the UK, 19% to the USA, 10% to Asia and 9% to the Middle East.​

 

[trickx]

What exactly is a Senior Associate?

Do you need to be promoted to that position or do you automatically become one in your 6th year?

 

[tommykins]

All I've gathered -
Money
Reading
'helping people' - although i conclude this to be redundant as you're not always helping those who deserve it? (or am i assuming here)
you like arguing.

 

[RogueAcademic]

All I've gathered -
Money
Reading
'helping people' - although i conclude this to be redundant as you're not always helping those who deserve it? (or am i assuming here)
you like arguing.

Unfortunately, those are probably the dominant reasons most law students choose to go into law. And it's reflected by the number of law graduates who gun for the high-paid and prestigious private commercial law firm places upon graduation. Considerably fewer number of law graduates intentionally go into the areas of law that aren't usually associated with high salaries or prestige (human rights, legal aid, community law etc). At Harvard, they've actually started a program to abolish your uni fees if you signal an intention to work in those less-popular areas to encourage more of their graduates to take those career options (because those lawyers are less likely to be able to repay their fees anyway).

The thing is, 'money' and 'prestige' are also often the reasons that students choose to go into medicine..... there'd be far fewer med applicants if the 'helping people' part didn't actually include money and prestige.

 

[tommykins]

Yeah fair enough.

 

[Koolak]

If you are going into law purely for the money, you are kidding yourself. Do not be mistaken. There are plenty of failed and/or poor lawyers out there, both solicitors and barristers. In the same fashion as any profession, remuneration is based on performance, aptitude etc. Both my parents are barristers and it is hard work. Long hours, good pay when you do it over 20 years.
That said doing law will change the way you think. You adopt a certain pragmatism which you apply to all aspects of life, not just your profession. I sort of had it hammered into me inadvertedly. And despite resisting it for 18 years, I now appreciate the value of that. Not that I would admit that aha. Law is by no means for everyone. If you take it however, prepare to think. Really think.

 

[gibbo153]

$

 

[RogueAcademic]

Yeah fair enough.

By the way, 'helping people' is not what you'll hear from most law students/graduates, by far. They know they want that high paying law firm job, at least they're honest about that.

But you will hear it from most med students. If helping people was the real reason, you'd see much more of them working in rural regions or other similar areas where doctors are much needed.

 

[midifile]

That said doing law will change the way you think. You adopt a certain pragmatism which you apply to all aspects of life, not just your profession. I sort of had it hammered into me inadvertedly. And despite resisting it for 18 years, I now appreciate the value of that. Not that I would admit that aha. Law is by no means for everyone. If you take it however, prepare think. Really think.

That's one of the reasons I'm studying law, despite not wanting to practice it. Being someone who has always been mathsy/sciencey, I want develop my logic and reasoning skills and whatever. By no means am I planning on practicing law (although I'm not ruling it out, it's just that I doubt I will), but having those skills will mean a lot, especially since nowadays every second person has a commerce/business degree.

 

[MichaelJackson2]

i studied law so that one day i could be like the funny old judge in boston legal and declare a matter before me "OUTRAGEOUS!" also look forward to making threats such as "do that again counsel and i shall hold you in contempt!"

 

[Graney]

'helping people' - although i conclude this to be redundant as you're not always helping those who deserve it? (or am i assuming here)

Everyone deserves legal representation and a fair trial.

correct me if i am wrong please but i dare say the minimum amount that a law graduate would earn in the workplace (including all types of firms eg top firms to boutique) would be at least over 30 000-35 000 a year would it not?- and this being the basic of the basic wage which isnt to bad when u consider it is around 600-700 dollars a week

That's the minimum wage. You can earn that working full-time in an entry-level position at woolies.

 

[RogueAcademic]

 

[RogueAcademic]

Everyone deserves legal representation and a fair trial.

'Helping people' is technically redundant if you consider that a vast majority of lawyers go into commercial/corporate law. Most lawyers don't see the inside of a court room. I think that's what tommykins meant.

That's the minimum wage. You can earn that working full-time in an entry-level position at woolies.

Yes and unfortunately there are also some Legal Aid or community lawyer positions that start at ~$35k. But there is a wide range of starting salaries in the legal field (see the Mahlab link I posted earlier).

 

[tommykins]

Everyone deserves legal representation and a fair trial.

Yeah sorry I worded it wrong.

What I meant was the moral dillemma of supposedly 'helping' people when say, you have the power to reduce a murderer or even prove him innocent, setting him free.

Always a shadow of doubt.

 

[Graney]

What I meant was the moral dillemma of supposedly 'helping' people when say, you have the power to reduce a murderer or even prove him innocent, setting him free.

Always a shadow of doubt.

I understood what you meant

That's what the judicial system is for. If we have faith in our legal system, as a lawyer certainly should, the most you can do is represent your client honestly and fairly, to the best of your ability, and they will receive the sentence they deserve.

There is no moral dilemma if you have basic faith in our legal system.

If you really believe criminals routinely get away with the worst of crimes, you should not become a lawyer.

If your client is later found to have been wrongly found innocent, that is a failing in the judicial system or the investigation, the defense did nothing wrong.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Yeah sorry I worded it wrong.

What I meant was the moral dillemma of supposedly 'helping' people when say, you have the power to reduce a murderer or even prove him innocent, setting him free.

Always a shadow of doubt.

ah ok. But that's part of the 'justice for all' principle though.

 

[coopert]

The factors that I took into account when deciding upon Law were:

1 - Money anf financial security.
Having a Law degree, especially one doubled with a business-type degree such as Commerce, Economics, Finance, Business, etc; opens up alot of doors for making a comfortable living once graduated. I figure that if I am going to rack up thousands of dollars in HECS (HELP) debt, then I might as well make sure that I have a better chance of earning a higher return on my investment.


2 - Skills.
Skills and experiences that you gather from studying Law are useful in your everyday life.
It's always good to know about the Law, where you stand, and what your rights are even if you never intend on actually practicing as an actual 'Lawyer' in a courtroom.



Anyone who says bullshit about how going into Law for the money is wrong, and how they only want to 'help people' are in most cases fooling themselves.
Unless of course if you are working in Legal Aid (which I comend and applaud you 100% - It is very noble and honourable work), you will in most cases be doing the exact opposite of helping people. That, or you will eventually just get over spending every day dealing with the absolute worst side of humanity (Criminal Law, Family Law).

If you really want to do good, join Greenpeace, World Vision, or go study Medicine and work for Doctors Without Borders. Go study teaching and change the life of a child or teenager, or become a Nurse and take care of the sick and needy.



Me, I don't even know if I will even ever use my degree professionally, but I think it's a useful degree just to have in life anyway