Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

[Malaty]

cookie182, no people who believe in God do not have empty lives coz we have satisfaction through the heart. get ur facts right buddy.

 

[BradCube]

Lots of Prots give god all these cuddly qualities of omnipotence/omniscience etc

There is consequentiality when you describe this entity: little do you realise, the more you do this, the more you destroy any chance of the 'god' you aptly describe existing at all.

Why?

The problem of motivation. You guys think of god in human ways- that he listens to your prayers, has infinite knowledge and love. Therefore, it is not acceptable to argue against him possessing other qualities like motivation.

How do we get motivated? Simply, due to limits. When we live under a limited framework (i.e. asymmetric information, time etc), we prioritise our resources to best meet our needs (given rationality). Limits drive our motivation to seek knowledge, to seek love, emotional fulfilment.

A characteristic of omnipotence/omniscience is that the entity is limitless- all-knowing, all-possessing, for eternity. Therefore, god has everything he ever needs internally, given he knows future outcomes; no external event is ever needed to satisfy a limitless entity. All knowledge, love, emotional fulfillment resides within him. By definition, god would have no motivation. Infinite apathy.

Without motivation, this apathetic entity would create nothing. This is a necessary consequence of your definitions.

I usually approach this type of problem from the view that some of his (Gods) attributes provide him with the necessary motivation to act in certain ways. For example, love coupled with creativity may bring rise to a desire to create persons whom he can love and be in a relationship with. I don't regard his desire to create human persons as anything he does to fulfill himself - as you say "god has everything he ever needs internally...".

I suppose I view motivation differently to yourself. Whilst you seem to view motivation as an outworking of need fulfillment, I view it more along the lines of desire fulfillment. In our case God doesn't have needs to be met (since he is fully complete within himself) but has character attributes which instigate desires (such as "love" or "creativity" leading to the possible desires to create and love) for motivation.

Also thought I would quickly mention how appreciative I am of this sort of input Cookie. Really raises the bar from the typical skepticism and cynicism found in the atheistic leaning camp.

 

[lyndallg]

If people were sure God existed then everyone would believe, but that is were faith comes in
we were given a decision to believe or not and their are consequences for this decision
chose Life, choose Christ

 

[Charizard]

It seems that every time i read this thread (about once a month) it's the same old shit.

3-4 people who actually have a clue on what they are talking about, a handful of idiots who spout random religious dribble "god spoke to me in a dream and i felt his love warm my heart", and the token "lol religion is gay" kid.

Certainly no evolution here.

 

[Cookie182]

It seems that every time i read this thread (about once a month) it's the same old shit.

3-4 people who actually have a clue on what they are talking about, a handful of idiots who spout random religious dribble "god spoke to me in a dream and i felt his love warm my heart", and the token "lol religion is gay" kid.

Certainly no evolution here.

Care to actually contribute then?

 

[Sprangler]

if people were shaw God existed then everyone whould belive, but that is were faith comes in
we were given a decition to belive or not and thier are concequeses for this decition
chose Life, choose Christ

Prove there are consequences.

 

[Garygaz]

cookie182, no people who believe in God do not have empty lives coz we have satisfaction through the heart. get ur facts right buddy.

He was pointing out that you are pretty god damn ignorant to say HALF the people who don't believe in a god have empty and unhappy lives. It's a pity everyone here who seems to believe in a god is an imbecile, because I've read some pretty good arguments before for the possibility of one's existence.

 

[brittanica-]

yeah but he gets stoned every night, watches jimmy hendirx in concert and allows janis joplin to decide who gets in the gates of heaven and every night he trips out on an acid trip and sleeps with marilyn monroe.

Am i right?

 

[Smile_Time351]

if people were shaw God existed then everyone whould belive, but that is were faith comes in
we were given a decition to belive or not and thier are concequeses for this decition
chose Life, choose Christ

Now. To be honest, I gave up on this thread about 900 pages back, beacuse it is just impossible to keep up, but consider my hand forced lyndallg. I have never seen so many spelling mistakes in my life! I have concluded that there are two options:

1. You are an absolute genius who laid a cunning trap, knowing that I would correct you, so you could burst forward and say "HAHA! Tricked you!"

2. You are an absolute freaking retard. :burn:

Given that you are a new member and a believer, I personally am leading towards the latter. As such, you are not exactly inspiring "faith" if you'll pardon the pun on the part of me and mine, who find this just further proof that religious faith and intelligence are self-excluding.

 

[niloony]

This has probally been mentioned in one of the 14300 posts before this but why isn't there a "don't know" answer in the poll . I'm an agnostic so i don't think anyone trully believes there is or isn't a god... Btw I'm not a fence sitter as i believe i will never know and everyone else is ultimately an agnostic as we can not totally commit ourselves to one belief.

Atheism is just a reaction to organised religion so come over to the agnostic side athiests and admit that deep down you know we can't prove anything regarding this :wave:

 

[Kwayera]

Atheism is just a reaction to organised religion so come over to the agnostic side athiests and admit that deep down you know we can't prove anything regarding this :wave:

I'm an agnostic atheist. I agree that we'll never prove anything either way, but on the weight of evidence (or rather, lack thereof) I actively disbelieve. Much like the tooth fairy, I guess.

 

[Iron]

So you dont rule out the non-existance of the tooth fairy? Cool stuff

 

[niloony]

Well considering someone created the tooth fairy without believing it themselves (due to no proof), it isn't true, so no i don't believe in the tooth fairy. In the same way i don't believe in organised religion. But when it comes to a concept for which we have not defined in any clear way (and cannot) then i say it may be possible considering there is nothing going for or against it.

 

[Iron]

Well considering someone created the tooth fairy without believing it themselves (due to no proof), it isn't true, so no i don't believe in the tooth fairy. In the same way i don't believe in organised religion. But when it comes to a concept for which we have not defined in any clear way (and cannot) then i say it may be possible considering there is nothing going for or against it.

You dont believe in orgainised religion? The church across your street is a mirage?

 

[brittanica-]

So you dont rule out the non-existance of the tooth fairy? Cool stuff

pssssshhh who would?

 

[niloony]

You dont believe in orgainised religion? The church across your street is a mirage?

Sigh iron, you know what i mean. I do not believe in what organised religions preach

 

[Iron]

why not dood

 

[Cookie182]

"Agnostic" is not actually an answer to the question "do you believe in God"?

Atheist/theist- they are personal descriptors, much like yes/no. You’re one or the other (they also say nothing about why you believe/disbelieve).

Agnosticism is more the claim in respect to whether you believe you can have "knowledge" of God. It is an epistemic claim. Therefore, irrespective of whether your an agnostic, you still must be either an-

-Agnostic theist (Eg- I believe in God, but the nature of God is unknowable. This resembles the position of the medieval Jewish philosopher Maimonides. Therefore, "God is, yet I don't know what God is". There are no positivistic claims made in respect to the deity, beyond existence.)

-Agnostic atheist (Eg- Not only is the nature of God unknowable, but knowledge in respect to the existence of God is also unknowable. Therefore, we can not know of God's existence. By definition, you would then not believe in God- you’re atheistic. The agnostic can affirm the theoretical possibility of God's existence- but concludes that ultimately it is unknowable and uncertain. The best answer for the agnostic atheist to the question “does god exist”, begs “I cannot know.”)

I think these concepts are explained rather well in Chapter 1 of George H Smith's "A Case Against God" (great read!)

 

[Iron]

u shud red 'god, actually' dood

 

[Cookie182]

Biblical Verse of the Day:

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

As Obama even said, if the fundies got there way in America and instilled Biblical law, not even the defense department would survive its application!!

And to those who "reject the OT"- shame on you, for the LORD your GOD commands better!

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB) [Also fucks over the Prots!]

...just a few examples. Obey the commands of your LOVING, yet admittedly jealous, furious (yet perfect) LORD your GOD!!