Universities should take responsibility for builiding ethical and moral character (3 Viewers)

[xeuyrawp]

As a relevant (but aside) note, I really think that people need to get over the whole universities = vocational training. The Australian community with its warped ideas of education and work is one of the reasons why the country is such an intellectual and cultural wasteland.

You go to the best, the best universities in the world and for the first few years of your study, you aren't doing vocational training. This is because these universities have and always will be providers of theoretical and general training. The view in these countries has always been that if you want to go out and work, the top universities are not where you go. Maybe you go to a college, technical school, or one of the practical universities.

It's completely related to the issue that people in this country are obsessed with what they can 'do with' their degrees. Of course then, the degrees must have a suitable name, like Bachelor of Actuarial Studies, Bachelor of Media, Bachelor of Marine Biology, etc. When students are in school, they're happy to do things like Extension English and History, but suddenly when they come to uni, it's about a job? It's just crazy. Go to these best universities in the world, and you're looking at one of a handful of named degrees with a whole lot of flexible majors suitable to their areas. Australia seems to have it ass-backwards with huge amounts of named degrees which are inflexible and not at all suited to anything except bureaucracy.

I really think that people need to realise that university isn't for everyone, and as such, universities shouldn't cater for everyone. But of course it's now a money-making exercise (at Macquarie especially). Universities in Australia really don't seem to care about providing an awesome education to students so much as providing them with what they want.

Going back to the thread: Not sure why people completely misrepresent what Macquarie's doing. It's not a massive Core curriculum like the University of Chicago (which noone here would know about given that no Australian unis have the guts to do it), let alone the 'Melbourne Model'. What is happening is:

- Students choose a general area at the beginning of their degree as they do now,
- along the way (usually at the beginning), they have to do one People, Planet, and Participation unit. What this means is that essentially natural scientists have to do a human science unit and vice versa. It's one fucking subject; I'm not sure why the media has such a problem understanding it. I would go so far as to say it's a token effort when compared against Melbourne and even the decent Core curricula of those top unis. The Participation component is pretty straight-forward, but again it is essentially one semester's subject (ie 1/4 time) worth of volunteer work in some form,
- a Capstone unit, which is effectively a unit taken at the end of their study which aims to bring together all their learning in a sort of mini-thesis and seminar.

Ie, it's really not that much; at the most, it's one subject you wouldn't ordinarily do + a couple months of part-time volunteer work + another small unit.

So, do I think that what Macquarie is trying to do is good? Yes. Are they going about it the wrong way? Of course, it's Macquarie.

Edit: Ack, as for 'building ethical and moral character', that honestly sounds ridiculous, especially coming from a Vice Chancellor who suggested that unit conveners can't be trusted setting their own textbooks as texts because conveners would rip off students. What a fuckwit. Try leading from the top, Steven.

/waits to be called an elitist or something.

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

1 unit isn't going to make a difference. it's a giant waste of time.
a capstone unit? all the senior subjects ive taken are fine with that - they do it anyway,

what a foolish idea.

 

[badquinton304]

i think unsw's gen-ed system is better than that.





ahahahaa



HAHAHAHAHHAAHA



alright



lol

You pretty much summed up what I was going to say.

 

[Ben1220]

As a relevant (but aside) note, I really think that people need to get over the whole universities = vocational training. The Australian community with its warped ideas of education and work is one of the reasons why the country is such an intellectual and cultural wasteland.

You go to the best, the best universities in the world and for the first few years of your study, you aren't doing vocational training. This is because these universities have and always will be providers of theoretical and general training. The view in these countries has always been that if you want to go out and work, the top universities are not where you go. Maybe you go to a college, technical school, or one of the practical universities.

It's completely related to the issue that people in this country are obsessed with what they can 'do with' their degrees. Of course then, the degrees must have a suitable name, like Bachelor of Actuarial Studies, Bachelor of Media, Bachelor of Marine Biology, etc. When students are in school, they're happy to do things like Extension English and History, but suddenly when they come to uni, it's about a job? It's just crazy. Go to these best universities in the world, and you're looking at one of a handful of named degrees with a whole lot of flexible majors suitable to their areas. Australia seems to have it ass-backwards with huge amounts of named degrees which are inflexible and not at all suited to anything except bureaucracy.

I really think that people need to realise that university isn't for everyone, and as such, universities shouldn't cater for everyone. But of course it's now a money-making exercise (at Macquarie especially). Universities in Australia really don't seem to care about providing an awesome education to students so much as providing them with what they want.

Going back to the thread: Not sure why people completely misrepresent what Macquarie's doing. It's not a massive Core curriculum like the University of Chicago (which noone here would know about given that no Australian unis have the guts to do it), let alone the 'Melbourne Model'. What is happening is:

- Students choose a general area at the beginning of their degree as they do now,
- along the way (usually at the beginning), they have to do one People, Planet, and Participation unit. What this means is that essentially natural scientists have to do a human science unit and vice versa. It's one fucking subject; I'm not sure why the media has such a problem understanding it. I would go so far as to say it's a token effort when compared against Melbourne and even the decent Core curricula of those top unis. The Participation component is pretty straight-forward, but again it is essentially one semester's subject (ie 1/4 time) worth of volunteer work in some form,
- a Capstone unit, which is effectively a unit taken at the end of their study which aims to bring together all their learning in a sort of mini-thesis and seminar.

Ie, it's really not that much; at the most, it's one subject you wouldn't ordinarily do + a couple months of part-time volunteer work + another small unit.

So, do I think that what Macquarie is trying to do is good? Yes. Are they going about it the wrong way? Of course, it's Macquarie.

Edit: Ack, as for 'building ethical and moral character', that honestly sounds ridiculous, especially coming from a Vice Chancellor who suggested that unit conveners can't be trusted setting their own textbooks as texts because conveners would rip off students. What a fuckwit. Try leading from the top, Steven.

/waits to be called an elitist or something.

You're absolutely right. Have a look at the highest ranking Universities undergraduate programs, especially the Ivy Leauge in USA, often there are only one or two courses, and they aren't vocational at all. The stuff you learn in a proper bachelors of Science isn't meant to be instantly applicable, its something you need to know in order to understand more difficult concepts, which are needed to understand even more difficult concepts, which can then be applied. Of course many people don't have the patience with this, fine don't do a bachelor of science.
You are right in that university is not for everyone, and it is not just simple vocational training. University is more suitable for people who are interested in why things are true, and not just what is true for example. People who actually view the knowledge gained as an ends in itself, to an extent of course for most... Technical colleges and tafe are there to give people vocational training, and there is no problem with that. Of course in Australia this role is often being doubled by Universities. If people believe that University is just a means to getting a piece of paper that lets you get a job, then that will become a self fulfillinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy prophecy, they won't benifit from it, and they will have wasted 3 years of their life.

Of course, Macquarie probably screwed up the implementation of whatever they are doing, especially with the community participant nonsense that has been built into the courses. At high school we had compulsory community services, and frankly, it made me more misanthropic, I doubt that was the intended outcome of it

 

[Riet]

uni's should have a policy of not admitting cunts. I was at USYD this afternoon, I still feel dirty. I think the old decrepit buildings have given me mesophilioma.

 

[Kwayera]

uni's should have a policy of not admitting cunts. I was at USYD this afternoon, I still feel dirty. I think the old decrepit buildings have given me mesophilioma.

Mesothelioma?

 

[Planck]

uni's should have a policy of not admitting cunts. I was at USYD this afternoon, I still feel dirty. I think the old decrepit buildings have given me mesophilioma.

Yeah USYD was pretty much the worst today, hey. It's such a crappy and vacuous institution that feels stuck in the 50's.

 

[HumanDichotomy]

Imo, uni isn't school (well, obviously). By the time people get there, it's expected that they can think for themselves, they're adults and they're entitled to their own views on things, as long as they don't, you know, enforce them on others.

 

[ascentyx]

what happens to all the actuaries who can't function when not doing anything which doesn't involve maths

 

[HumanDichotomy]

Lol. True.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Mesothelioma?

hahah wouldn't mesophilioma would be like the disease you get from loving-middle-cancer?

But seriously, Riet's comments are pretty true - whilst the USyd campus is nice, there are parts of the uni that aren't great. But that's pretty true with UNSW as well, the place where they have the Careers Markets (the Round Room or something?) is fucking horrible. Parts of Mogadishu are nicer than parts of UNSW.

But then again, come to Macquarie and you'll have undoubtedly the worst coffee in Sydney. The worst. Once I honestly thought that drinking mud would be better. And I'm not saying that Macquarie is shit because of the coffee; I'm saying that Macquarie is shit because of the reason why it has shit coffee: Apathetic students and terrible management. *shrug* Oh and the campus has some of the 'best' Brutalist architecture in Australia, which is essentially heritage listed, so it's never going to be knocked down. I guess it would be fine if the interior of these buildings (eg the library) wasn't an obscure maze fit for a Soviet bunker.

 

[blue_chameleon]

But then again, come to Macquarie and you'll have undoubtedly the worst coffee in Sydney. The worst. Once I honestly thought that drinking mud would be better. And I'm not saying that Macquarie is shit because of the coffee; I'm saying that Macquarie is shit because of the reason why it has shit coffee: Apathetic students and terrible management. *shrug* Oh and the campus has some of the 'best' Brutalist architecture in Australia, which is essentially heritage listed, so it's never going to be knocked down. I guess it would be fine if the interior of these buildings (eg the library) wasn't an obscure maze fit for a Soviet bunker.

At least you guys don't have to contend with the swarms of mosquitoes in Summer months.

 

[DavidBenGurion]

uni's should have a policy of not admitting cunts. I was at USYD this afternoon, I still feel dirty. I think the old decrepit buildings have given me mesophilioma.

You ought to keep your massive chin out of our university.

 

[KFunk]

What is happening is:

- Students choose a general area at the beginning of their degree as they do now,
- along the way (usually at the beginning), they have to do one People, Planet, and Participation unit. What this means is that essentially natural scientists have to do a human science unit and vice versa. It's one fucking subject; I'm not sure why the media has such a problem understanding it. I would go so far as to say it's a token effort when compared against Melbourne and even the decent Core curricula of those top unis. The Participation component is pretty straight-forward, but again it is essentially one semester's subject (ie 1/4 time) worth of volunteer work in some form,
- a Capstone unit, which is effectively a unit taken at the end of their study which aims to bring together all their learning in a sort of mini-thesis and seminar.

We have similar changes taking place at UNSW. Most degrees require a small number of general education units. Arts majors are bringing in 'capstone' units and units offering moral indoctrination and vocational skills (e.g. UNSW Handbook - ).

 

[xeuyrawp]

We have similar changes taking place at UNSW. Most degrees require a small number of general education units. Arts majors are bringing in 'capstone' units and units offering moral indoctrination and vocational skills (e.g. UNSW Handbook - ).

Ah, that's actually not too bad. The units look pretty good.

 

[AsyLum]

We're failing to nurture wisdom, uni chief asserts

Sounds like a rubbish university imo. A bachelors degree already consumes a substantial portion of your life, requiring students to undertake an extra 3 years in arts or science, before allowing them to move onto their desired vocational degree, is elitist and a complete waste of time.

Why would you choose to attend a university where you are given less choice?

Let's take your current age, so estimate 18?

3/21 (seeing as you won't graduate for at least 3 years) = an amazing 14% of your current life.

now lets say you lived till the modest age of 30, and suffered a horrendous fatal injury involving a spork up the nose:

3/30 = 10% of your life dedicated to the pursuit of higher learning and understanding

now, for the sake of argument you live past the age of 50:

3/50 = 6%


Sorry to say, but I think you'd probably spend more time looking at the blank walls in a dead end office job than you would at uni in a regular 3 year undergraduate degree.

 

[KFunk]

hahah wouldn't mesophilioma would be like the disease you get from loving-middle-cancer?

Speaking of occupational cancers and academia...

Also, on word roots, mesothelioma does arise from mesodermal tissue - i.e. tissue derived from the 'middle' layer of the embryo (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Cell_differentiation.gif ).

 

[Iron]

I dont really know what I think about it. It's a nice idea to reassert the role university has to mould people into critical, independent truth-seekers who are less likely to be manipulated by the first glitzy political/advertising campaign that swans past their tvs/pcs - but I doubt that you can force this. The reality is that most kids at uni consider, or have been bred to consider, a tertiary education as a right; a mere means to monetary ends, rather than an end/pursuit in itself.

I admire the determination of those who slog thru a degree that they learn to resent as they resented mandatory schooling, but they really have no place in a university. I think that the best thing that can be done is enforce a gap year after highschool where everyone is funneled into a Youth Corp designed to empower young people with a real sense of what they hunger to do with their life thru selfless community works, sexy retreats and quasi-totalitarian solidarity building - all designed to prompt the youngkipp to reflect deeply and independently on their goals and aspirations. After this they should pounce upon their dreams with a violent confidence, rather than apathetically accepting the dreams they feel mildly prodded to consume (like a burger)

 

[Iron]

not that i've never pounced upon a burger with violent confidence bf, btw
Poor analogy

mildly prodded to consume like alternative medicine

 

[blue_chameleon]

I think that the best thing that can be done is enforce a gap year after highschool where everyone is funneled into a Youth Corp designed to empower young people with a real sense of what they hunger to do with their life thru selfless community works, sexy retreats and quasi-totalitarian solidarity building - all designed to prompt the youngkipp to reflect deeply and independently on their goals and aspirations.

Exactly. We can learn a lot from systems in place in Singapore/Switzerland that provide empowerment and a chance to mature through National Service programs after students finish their High School studies. I'm not looking for some sunshine, lollipops and rainbows utopian here but I do think it could provide a benefit that the students may not realise until they had come out the other side of it.

I'm all for the idea, especially if it gives students the chance to, god forbid, think about the path they are taking post-HSC studies. Sure, the gap year popularity is gaining momentum, however I still believe there are far too many students jumping into university courses in areas that they aren't fully committed to. I'd say the majority of students see university as merely an extension of high school.