Specific Qs on Law @ USYD vs UNSW (2 Viewers)

[Layna]

Hi guys, I have recently received offers (both CSP) to do a JD at Usyd and UNSW and I facing a very difficult choice between two excellent law schools. I recently graduated from UNSW with BCom and have enjoyed my time at UNSW however I am aware that USyd is more internationally recognised and established law school which will be better for my desire to work overseas in the future.

To help make a more informed decision, I would appreciate it if anyone (particularly law students from these unis) could shed some light on these questions

1. Marking: After looking at course outlines, I noticed UNSW has a MUCH heavier focus on class participation and group assignments. Further i have heard that all law finals are open book. How does this generally impact on grades and scaling? Is it difficult to get ds or hds? As a commerce student, it was a pretty straight forward process of getting hds or ds...

Usyd on the other hand puts alot more focus on the individual and alot of the finals are like 80% of the grade and there are no group assignments. I did hear that HDs were capped and are pretty much unheard from a law student at Usyd open day.

2. Exchange opportunities: Usyd has some fantastic US exchange partners such as Cornell, NYU and Emory however i believe last year only one place was offered for each of these universities. UNSW less variety in US partners but has good European partners. Adding to the fact of the extremely high-achieving cohort, what would be considered a competitive wam to get a place an exchange place?

3. Social aspects: I guess as a ex-UNSW student i am familiar with the social scene at UNSW, but I have no clue about what it would be like to a JD student at Usyd. I have heard that Usyd can be somewhat 'cliquey' and a pretty exclusive crowd but I'm not sure how much this would extend to Juris doctor students who would be a bit more of a mature cohort.

4. FOOD: As silly as this sounds, the availability of good food on campus is pretty important to me especially since i will be have 20 odd contact hours. Im particularly interested in Usyd's food because i had a look around Usyd and they only seemed to have a couple of cafes and an outdated cafeteria at the basement of a building. I am a fan of asian food but was told that it was quite far to go to thai restaurants etc. Can anyone from usyd help me out on this question in particular?

Cheers, Layna

 

[izzy88]

I got to USYD law so I can give some answers on that.

1. Marking: at USYD there is a bell curve. 3-10% HDs and no more than 40% of grades can be a D or HD. This applie to all subjects with a cohort over 25 people. HDs are not unheard of, you just have to be in the top 3%. HD averages on the other hand are very rare - usually only 1 or maybe 2 people might get them a year.

As for style of assessments - you are pretty accurate in your assessment of what USYD subjects are. I guess its up to you as to what style you prefer. USYD is generally 30% mid term exam or assignment and 70% final exam. Some electives are diffeeeent, and some have 100% final exam (relatively rare though). Re open book -most are some form of open book. Generally only ones that aren't are contracts and corporations law (get given outline but that's it). Torts may be partial open book (ie take in 3 pages notes).

Exchanges: US are competitive. Although the European ones are not so much. As for average, at least a D average - for US exchange you might need a higher one - say above 80. Although I'm not sure on this.

Social: USYD law is very social - as long as you want to get involved. Law review can be cliquey but everything else is fine. Lots of parties and social events - there are also separate ones for JD students as opposed to
Combined. I find many law students hang together.

Food: USYD food is fine. Recommendations are Taste cafe which is in law school and the favourite of law students (and others). A bit pricey, but nice baguettes. If you want Thai then you can go to the many Thai restaurants on kind st - $6.50 lunches. It's not that far at all - heaps of students go there for lunch. Ralph's cafe in sports centre is also well regarded as is Azeris and the other place near Jane Foss Russel building.

 

[Layna]

Thanks alot for the indepth response izzy! That was really helpful By the by, are you a JD student or undergrad? And do you find that the law environment at Usyd quite competitive?

 

[izzy88]

Thanks alot for the indepth response izzy! That was really helpful By the by, are you a JD student or undergrad? And do you find that the law environment at Usyd quite competitive?

I'm combined - almost finished. In 5th year there's no difference between JD and combined at all really - everyone is in the same classes.

It is competitive - I would think it would be just as competitive at unsw though. There will always be people who are annoying and won't want to talk or help others out - but there's also a strong community atmosphere and I do think a lot of students help each other out. Ive always tried not to let it get to me - just do as well as you can and try your best. I know however that some
People do find it too much and don't cope with the pressure - but it's usually the pressure they place on themselves...

Ps sorry for typos. I'm on my phone typing these responses!

 

[Layna]

Anyone else like to shed some light on their experiences, I'd be particularly interested to hear about unsw law and their marking practices.
Class participation is often 20% or more of the final mark and i'd be surprised if tutors could identify everyone by their first names as such. In commerce, some tutors were happy enough to give full participation marks as long as turne up to every tute - but i imagine law teachers are not as lenient.

 

[Newbie]

ahh CP, yeah its a flawed concept.

Extremely subjective, creates a teachers pet-type of dynamic which is fkn annoying.
you would have kids in classes that would put their hand up, ask some 2-3 generic pre-written question every class.

some lecturers love it (the softer law subjects i noticed), some dont buy the bullsht.

got HD in income tax law without saying a word in class except answering yes during roll call, teacher had to have noticed i was on facebook/watching nba/playing minesweeper challenge with the guy next to me but whatever

there are also many subjects where i got zero in cp so yeah. you will be fine if you game the system

 

[Layna]

that's not encouraging. Do 'normal' people who turn up and answer any questions posed to them during class, have a reasonable shot of getting full/near full marks?

 

[Newbie]

i dont recall a class where the lecturer will direct questions to people

its usually "who can tell me...blah blah"

i dont know what normal is - i was abnormally lazy and there were people who were on the opposites of that spectrum. i think some lecturers will state up front if you show up to all classes you get 5/10 automatically and your participation is the other 5 marks.

 

[lawstu]

Hi. Misery loves company, haha. I'm in the same boat, with JD (CSP) offers from both USyd and UNSW. Although I graduated from USyd (non-arts/non-commerce/non-engineering) degree, I was set on UNSW but have since given this some more thought and am now clueless (I reconsidered USyd on the basis of its focus on theory and academe, which speaks to my intent on eventually getting into academic/alternative (i.e., non-corporate) law, which are generally more flexible in many regards; my inner Arts person; the ease of access and transportation; some of the people, such as alum, which sort of goes with the fact that the law school isn't but 40 years old - though, for all we know, perhaps UNSW will start to churn out High Court Justices and Prime Ministers)!

This website might be useful in helping you make a better and informed decision: http://uniaustralia.com/au/university/university-of-new-south-wales/ and http://uniaustralia.com/au/university/university-of-sydney/.

There are so many opinions, so many views, so many metrics and stats but it's so awful to make a decision while taking these into account, albeit with a grain of salt, as well as things such as where you come from, where you want to go, and what you want out of the three years.

If you're comfortable with informing us/me on your decision or your decision making, please inform us/me.

1. Marking: After looking at course outlines, I noticed UNSW has a MUCH heavier focus on class participation and group assignments. Further i have heard that all law finals are open book. How does this generally impact on grades and scaling? Is it difficult to get ds or hds? As a commerce student, it was a pretty straight forward process of getting hds or ds...

From what I understand, USyd has more of a focus on the individual and is stringent with its grade distribution. A big minus, but also a big plus. Good students will be good students anywhere. A relative who undertook combined law at USyd thought that the competition was overly fierce, beyond what is optimal. Also hearsay: USyd's marking practices are scandalous and too harsh.

UNSW has numerous courses with group/class marks, either as an innate element of assessment or as an opt-in element. Depends on your person and temperament. Furthermore, it is said that UNSW's law is less theoretical, even less cerebral or intellectually rigorous, and more applied and practical, in contrast to USyd's emphasis on black-letter law and the underpinning foundations of law. UNSW marking not only seems less brutal but there is a higher percentage of higher letter grades allowed.

RE: 2. I can't find anything that's official but more likely than not a D average or a high D average. For non-law exchanges, WAMs needed to be in the D range.

RE: 3. Both SULS and UNSW Law Society have a panoply of things, including events and competitions. Other than the law societies, I can only speak for USyd in general. There is often the criticism or comment that colleges are a big thing at USyd, as is the air of arrogance/overconfidence, snootiness and incestuousness. It may be true but it's probably not going to be a big deal if you go to USyd anyway, at least if you take things in stride. Like with most other things, USyd and UNSW are probably almost indistinguishable. There are so many opportunities; what's important is getting involved and making the most of it.

RE: 4. Newtown and Broadway are rife with decent food. A majority of campus food at USyd is, as typical of campus food, dear and awful. Coffee can be hit and miss. izzy88 has already listed the better places at USyd. If you're into alcohol, there are two bars too.


Notes on libraries. From both experience and research, the law libraries are packed with commerce and non-law students.

USyd seems to have more electives, and a broader range at that, but worse timetabling (and, despite interest in some specialist areas of law, you may end up doing what works with your TT and what interests you). UNSW, however, has not quite as many and, in my opinion, they are more appropriate for corporate and commercial law.

Class numbers are high at both universities, and they're increasing. Contact hours is a worry.

Some interesting(?) links:
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?135656-UNSW-VS-University-of-Sydney
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/101940
http://forums.vogue.com.au/showthread.php?t=65539
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1562949
http://www.studyconnect.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5425


It seems that you can matriculate to both, or accept both offers. Of course, you can't enrol into both courses, if even just to buy thinking time, though.

 

[Layna]

Thanks alot for the input lawstu, for some one in the same shoes as I am, you are really well-informed! You've done alot of research and I appreciate you adding the weblinks - makes for some very interesting reading
You've certainly hit the nail on the head as there are alot of considerations that need to be taken into account when deciding where to spend the next three years studying. Like you, I was set on UNSW as i enjoyed being an undergrad there but have slowly thought of going to usyd. If you don't mind me asking why were you set on UNSW in the first place (since you were a Usyd student were you unhappy with the environment or wanted a change of scene?)

My main concerns about UNSW is its short history (Although it has come far to be considered relatively equal to USyd which has been around for ages) and its emphasis on class participation/group work as I think they're a waste of everyone's time and can wrongly benefit students who are lazy/ lack knowledge. But with a commerce background, I am thinking of working as a paralegal in a financial firm or using my legal knowledge in a financial role. I feel that UNSW law, as you mentioned, is better geared towards a future in the financial world. Whereas I have heard that com law students at usyd tend to favour the law side of their degree.

On a side note, do Usyd students tend to walk to newtown for food or catch a bus? according to google maps it takes 20 minutes to walk from the new law building to get there so a return trip would take alot of time. Also, are there frequent buses at Usyd to go to townhall/QVB?

 

[passionxmusic]

On a side note, do Usyd students tend to walk to newtown for food or catch a bus? according to google maps it takes 20 minutes to walk from the new law building to get there so a return trip would take alot of time. Also, are there frequent buses at Usyd to go to townhall/QVB?

It does not take 20mins to walk down to Newtown and back. 10mins - depending where you want to eat. Yes, there are a lot of buses that go to Townhall/QVB. Broadway is also close by.

 

[izzy88]

The Thai places on king st aren't that far up - definitely not a bus ride. It's about a 5-10 minute walk max.

There are also stacks of buses that go from USYD to town hall/qvb - you can either catch buses on King st or parramatta road.

 

[Layna]

I definitely check these place out when i go to Usyd for enrollment next week (i'll be accepting both offers, to buy more time).

Izzy's was quite specific on how many hds and ds ("Marking: at USYD there is a bell curve. 3-10% HDs and no more than 40% of grades can be a D or HD. This applie to all subjects with a cohort over 25 people. HDs are not unheard of, you just have to be in the top 3%. HD averages on the other hand are very rare - usually only 1 or maybe 2 people might get them a year. are given out at Usyd")

Marks are of course not everything, but they are a important factor when it comes to seeking jobs and I'm curious as to whether UNSW applies similar academically rigourous practices and caps the numbers of higher grades given. I was under the impression that UNSW is a little more lax with their grading but I may be wrong. If anyone from UNSW could discuss grade distributions for law courses, that would be fantastic.

 

[lawstu]

Hi. Pardon my post, for its length and quality. Phone posting.

Initially, I wanted to attend UNSW for its organisation and admin, its legal centre/clinic, and the purported teaching quality but, as of this morning, I've thought that CP at UNSW is a stupid system and reading up on the policy – the vagaries! Also, it seems that UNSW is more conducive to – what I think is – a better learning environment, with more student cooperation (while I think group/teamwork skills are important, I reckon UNSW overdoes it and USyd doesn't do enough) and apparently more attentive and involved staff (in general and FWIW).

In any case, this is only the tip of the iceberg of my rationales, which may include faulty premises. I've spammed both USyd and UNSW with questions, to which I'll probably get a few straight facts and some marketing/propaganda, to put it cynically.

At USyd, law grades are weird. At least 3% of passes are Hs and/ but as many as 80%(!) of passes are Hs and Ds and … actually, you know what, if I could your e-mail address, probably better via PM, I'll send you the details and documents. GTG for now.

 

[Layna]

haha, confusion abounds! Check your pm lawstu, i've sent you my email address

 

[izzy88]

At USyd, law grades are weird. At least 3% of passes are Hs and/ but as many as 80%(!) of passes are Hs and Ds and … actually, you know what, if I could your e-mail address, probably better via PM, I'll send you the details and documents. GTG for now.

For the past 4 years or so, no more than 40% of a subject can get above D (if there are more than 25 students in the course) http://sydney.edu.au/law/cstudent/undergrad/moderation_grades.shtml

If you are alluding to the high-ish numbers of students that graduate with Honours (average above 75), then that is also changing. USYD law honours used to be based on your law average - so if you got above 75 then you got Honours Class 1. From semester 2 this year, however to get honours you need to do a thesis in 5th year (takes up 2 elective subjects), and to get class 1 you need an average above 80. (further info here http://sydney.edu.au/law/cstudent/undergrad/honours_program.shtml) My personal view is that this is going to be pretty hard to get, and there will be a lot less people graduating with honours from law at usyd. Whether this is a positive or not is up to you...

 

[Layna]

Hi guys, thanks for all the feedback. Lately ive been digging a little deeper into both unis and have been amazed by the amount of electives on offer and some have been particularly appealing. I have read that only a few are offered every semester and I would like to have a look at what was offered in 2012 just to get a feel for what types of electives are usually offered. Unfortunately i can't seem to find a links at each uni's website which outlines what each uni offered in electives- perhaps it is only shown to current students and not for public viewing? If any one could drop the link to the website it would be greatly appreciated

Just found the website that outlines the electives on offer for 2013. for future reference it's here http://sydney.edu.au/law/cstudent/undergrad/

Still looking for UNSW's so any help is welcome!

 

[Kingportable]

What is a CSP and how did you get your offers? Sorry i am new to this and and just am curious.

 

[Omnipotence]

What is a CSP and how did you get your offers? Sorry i am new to this and and just am curious.

CSP = Commonwealth Supported Place (i.e. HECS)
FFP = Full Fee Place

All undergraduate degrees besides those of Bond are CSP. It is speculated that the shift from a postgraduate LLB to JD is to cash on the full fee spots offered. Also I believe offers are made through UAC.

 

[Omnipotence]

Hi guys, thanks for all the feedback. Lately ive been digging a little deeper into both unis and have been amazed by the amount of electives on offer and some have been particularly appealing. I have read that only a few are offered every semester and I would like to have a look at what was offered in 2012 just to get a feel for what types of electives are usually offered. Unfortunately i can't seem to find a links at each uni's website which outlines what each uni offered in electives- perhaps it is only shown to current students and not for public viewing? If any one could drop the link to the website it would be greatly appreciated

Just found the website that outlines the electives on offer for 2013. for future reference it's here http://sydney.edu.au/law/cstudent/undergrad/

Still looking for UNSW's so any help is welcome!

I hope Trans4M can answer your questions =)