USYD commerce majors and prospects (2 Viewers)

[sida1049]

Hey guys. So I'm completing my HSC this year. I've found that I really enjoy economics, and mathematics (ext. 2) so far in secondary education, so naturally I'm looking to see if I could combine this for my tertiary education.

I'm leaning towards USYD currently (albeit I'm still quite indecisive and volatile). I've noticed that while the economics course is under the arts and social sciences, USYD's Bachelor of Commerce offers economics and econometrics as possible core majors (whereas UNSW doesn't, hence my current preference). Is there much difference in studying economics/econometrics under Bachelor of Commerce, which is under the Business faculty, over studying it under the Arts faculty? Are there beneficial units and opportunities available to me if I am to study under USYD's Business School rather than the Arts?

Furthermore, to my current knowledge (or the lack thereof) econometrics is the integration of mathematical rigour into economic theory and data. So it really does seem like econometrics is the quantitative variant of economics. Does econometrics really simply simultaneously infuse mathematics into economic theory? I'm sure my current view of econometrics is oversimplified and it would be great if someone can elaborate on what econometrics is really about, and its appeals to someone who adores economics and mathematics in high school.

Finally, are the job prospects of an econometrics major positive? While I'm aware that employment for economics graduates are volatile, does the quantitative side of an econometrics major improve one's job prospects over your typical economics major? I also do plan on pursuing postgraduate work within the field of economics/econometrics at this current point in time ("a hundred indecisions and revisions..."), and I sure hope my mathematical appetite will be fulfilled.

Many thanks!

 

[Amleops]

Economics is economics. The units for the major are all the same and whether you do a Bachelor of Commerce or a Bachelor of Economics shouldn't really matter too much.

Econometrics is the branch of economics that uses mathematical and statistical models to describe and interpret economic phenomena. You could probably get a more technical definition of what that entails from somebody who knows the subject better, but that's more or less the idea behind it. If you like economics and maths, then you should like econometrics.

And job prospects are the last thing you should be worrying about at the moment. Just study what you enjoy.

 

[JasonG123]

I have a few thoughts on this:

(1) No, it doesn't matter whether your Economics major is under the B.Comm, B.Ec or B.A, you'll do the same Economics units regardless (although your introductory micro and stats is slightly different under the B.Comm).
(2) There are a couple advantages to being in the business school. The Industry placement program and Washington DC placement program is only available to business school students. However, the Arts and Social Sciences faculty has developed their own placement program this year (although obviously the list of companies is not as extensive) and you'll obviously still have the opportunity for Semester long and short term exchanges in either degree. The disadvantage of doing a B.Comm over a B.Ec is that you have to use up 4 electives of pretty useless and generic 'business' units, these electives could be used on maths units, see point (5).
(3) Econometrics is the application of statistics and mathematics to economics. In first year or two econometrics focuses more on the intuition behind the mathematics, but from third year and beyond it can get very quantitative. In terms of job prospects, it doesn't directly lead to any careers so it is really better as a supplementary major to economics or finance but it is very useful in teaching you some practical stuff like how to use Matlab, STATA etc and it signals to employers that you're quantitatively strong.
(4) Have you considered doing a double B.Com (economics and/or econometrics major)/B.Sci (maths or stats or comp sci major). Note that this is five years at Usyd and four years at UNSW, so you may prefer to be at Uni longer and complete more majors or you may want to get out into the workforce. Also note that Usyd has a pre-Economics Honours program beginning from second year which is much more rigorous than the regular stream, so this might be something that interests you.
(5) If you choose to do a straight B.Ec (or B.Com), then I would major in Economics and either Econometrics or Mathematics and gun for Honours. Imo an Econ degree is much more useful the more maths you can cram into it, so do as many maths electives as possible if you do the Econ/Econometrics double (and maybe a couple finance units for good measure).
(6) Your thirst for mathematics may not be satisfied at undergrad econ level, but it will be at Honours and postgrad level. You should definitely be aiming for Honours if you want to go down this path.

Good luck.

 

[erckle999]

I have a few thoughts on this:

(1) No, it doesn't matter whether your Economics major is under the B.Comm, B.Ec or B.A, you'll do the same Economics units regardless (although your introductory micro and stats is slightly different under the B.Comm).
(2) There are a couple advantages to being in the business school. The Industry placement program and Washington DC placement program is only available to business school students. However, the Arts and Social Sciences faculty has developed their own placement program this year (although obviously the list of companies is not as extensive) and you'll obviously still have the opportunity for Semester long and short term exchanges in either degree. The disadvantage of doing a B.Comm over a B.Ec is that you have to use up 4 electives of pretty useless and generic 'business' units, these electives could be used on maths units, see point (5).
(3) Econometrics is the application of statistics and mathematics to economics. In first year or two econometrics focuses more on the intuition behind the mathematics, but from third year and beyond it can get very quantitative. In terms of job prospects, it doesn't directly lead to any careers so it is really better as a supplementary major to economics or finance but it is very useful in teaching you some practical stuff like how to use Matlab, STATA etc and it signals to employers that you're quantitatively strong.
(4) Have you considered doing a double B.Com (economics and/or econometrics major)/B.Sci (maths or stats or comp sci major). Note that this is five years at Usyd and four years at UNSW, so you may prefer to be at Uni longer and complete more majors or you may want to get out into the workforce. Also note that Usyd has a pre-Economics Honours program beginning from second year which is much more rigorous than the regular stream, so this might be something that interests you.
(5) If you choose to do a straight B.Ec (or B.Com), then I would major in Economics and either Econometrics or Mathematics and gun for Honours. Imo an Econ degree is much more useful the more maths you can cram into it, so do as many maths electives as possible if you do the Econ/Econometrics double (and maybe a couple finance units for good measure).
(6) Your thirst for mathematics may not be satisfied at undergrad econ level, but it will be at Honours and postgrad level. You should definitely be aiming for Honours if you want to go down this path.

Good luck.

JasonG123, known Usyd stooge. Disregard completely.

 

[JasonG123]

JasonG123, known Usyd stooge. Disregard completely.

I had a feeling I'd find you replying to this. You still getting notifications every time I post?

 

[erckle999]

I had a feeling I'd find you replying to this. You still getting notifications every time I post?

Nope, I just got lucky. You were on the currently discussed tab.

But to add some actual input (don't want to get the mods angry): in most of the comments that talk about econometrics as the application of maths, stats etc to economic theory, there is an implication that somehow econometrics is more rigorous/mathematical/quantitative than economics. This is certainly not true.

HSC economics may seem like it lacks in maths and rigour (because it does) but it is not a very good representation of what real economics at uni is like. Especially in micro, there will be a lot of calculus (and analysis and topology at a sufficiently advanced level)

A more useful distinction, perhaps, to make (and I have taken about half an econometrics course, this is speculative (google helps though)) is that microeconomics tries to give rigorous (ie mathematical) foundations to the actions of individual agents (people, firms etc) whereas econometrics tries to measure and test those models precisely against data. That is not to say that microeconomics is not concerned with the real world, or that econometrics is not concerned with theory (although econometric theory is usually the theory of constructing and testing models, not the the underlying economic theory). Just a rough approximation. Not sure what they do in macroeconomics, some sort of chicken on a wheel of fortune scenario (see 'margaritaville' from South Park).

Another thing to say (as someone who studies maths and economics) is that while a mathematical mindset and understanding will help you do economics/econometrics, by no stretch does doing economics or econometrics involve actually 'doing maths'. In the same way that graphing demand and supply functions in year 11 is trivial mathematically, so too is (generally) first year economics mathematically trivial to a first year math student, and second year economics trivial to a second year math student and so on. If you want to learn deep mathematical theory, do not expect to find it in economic/econometrics.

That being said, from what I have seen Usyd does have a pretty solid honours pre honours program. (how the actual honours years compare, though, I am not as sure). If it means anything, UNSW as a research institution is much more highly regarded than USyd(http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/best-econ-department-in-australia) (but that is more concerning to someone doing a Phd or postdoc). (full disclosure: I go to UNSW. Unlike JasonG123 who clearly has no integrity)

Happy to answer any more questions you may have.

 

[sida1049]

Thanks for your reply.

Regarding points #4 and #5, how many majors can I attain with a Bachelor of Commerce degree? If I choose to major in say... economics and econometrics, would it take additional years? Sorry about these novice questions. I've thought about doing a double degree majoring in economics and mathematics, but the 5 years duration seems in USYD is a deterrence and like you've mentioned, UNSW lacks the pre-Economics Honours program which USYD has.

Also, is doing Liberal Studies beneficial if I want to major in Economics, Econometrics and Mathematics? It's a 4 year program so purely by duration it seems quite apt. But it seems the opinion of Liberal Studies on BoS is somewhat negative.

 

[Amundies]

With a BComm degree, you can choose 2 majors. So yes, you can do economics and econometrics in a BComm without having to spend more time at uni.

 

[Amleops]

If the only reason you are not considering Commerce/Science is due to the length of the degree, then I would definitely advise you to reconsider your position. It seems like the perfect combination for you. Whether or not it goes for 4 or 5 years is irrelevant; if you enjoy economics and maths like you say you do, than studying it for an extra year shouldn't be any burden.

In regards to Liberal Studies, it doesn't achieve anything more than what a combined Commerce/Arts or Commerce/Science program does. In most cases you are much better off doing the combined degree, and then you'll graduate with a more comprehensive knowledge of your areas of study, and with two qualifications rather than one.

 

[pHyRe]

just a heads up, commerce requires you to do a bunch of BS first year courses. BUSS1001, 1002, accounting etc. absolutely hated it, if i had my time again i would likely consider doing economics instead, which is one of my commerce majors.

im also doing science majoring in financial maths and stats, maybe consider that if you really like 4U maths. or pure maths is just as good really

 

[sida1049]

just a heads up, commerce requires you to do a bunch of BS first year courses. BUSS1001, 1002, accounting etc. absolutely hated it, if i had my time again i would likely consider doing economics instead, which is one of my commerce majors.

im also doing science majoring in financial maths and stats, maybe consider that if you really like 4U maths. or pure maths is just as good really

Yeah, the compulsory units do seem to be quite superfluous for my aspirations, but it does offer me the ability to major in economics and econometrics, which is an option I'm still contemplating about.

 

[RishBonjour99]

Have a look through past BCG scholars to see 'prospects' of usyd finc/eco. JasonG has it right.

 

[sida1049]

Also, I'm considering to undertake postgraduate studies in Economics at UNSW for their Business School. However if I choose to do my undergraduate studies at USYD, would that disadvantage me in anyway in comparison with doing undergraduate studies at UNSW?

 

[Amleops]

No. They'll assume you have undergraduate knowledge, but it doesn't matter which university you went to. Most of the topics and curriculum are similar across all universities anyway.

 

[sida1049]

Regarding postgraduate economics, would it be more beneficial to have a complementary major of econometrics or mathematics along with an economics major? In other words, would the skills learnt in an econometrics or mathematics major be more valuable for further studies in economics? Balancing between the two, I think I could persist and enjoy mathematics, but econometrics from my current (naive) standpoint seems to be closer and more relatable to economic theory. However it seems that a well established mathematical background isn't merely beneficial, but fundamental in succeeding in postgraduate economics (or so the sentiment appears to be).

 

[Amleops]

You could do either or. If you are familiar with mathematics from a scientific perspective applying it in economic contexts shouldn't be too difficult.

But if you did a double degree you could easily fit those three majors into your program.

 

[Trebla]

Regarding postgraduate economics, would it be more beneficial to have a complementary major of econometrics or mathematics along with an economics major? In other words, would the skills learnt in an econometrics or mathematics major be more valuable for further studies in economics? Balancing between the two, I think I could persist and enjoy mathematics, but econometrics from my current (naive) standpoint seems to be closer and more relatable to economic theory. However it seems that a well established mathematical background isn't merely beneficial, but fundamental in succeeding in postgraduate economics (or so the sentiment appears to be).

I'm reading this as you have an interest in mathematics but you want it specifically applied to economics.

If you have a strong mathematical appetite then I think a Science degree would better satisfy that need. I can tell you now from experience (I did a Comm/Sci degree) that the level and rigour of mathematics you do within the Business faculty will NEVER be anywhere near the calibre of the Science (or more specifically the Mathematics and Statistics) faculty. I would strongly advise you consider taking a Science degree and major in Financial Mathematics.

The Econometrics major is great as well, but in my view that is really a less mathematically rigorous version of the Statistics major offered by the Science faculty. Economics does eventually get mathematically rigorous in the pre-honours stream (especially in 3rd year) but even then the mathematical tools are nowhere near as advanced as those seen in the Financial Mathematics major.

As Amleops suggested, Comm/Sci seems best suited to you where you can major in Economics (where you can build the solid conceptual background in economic theory) and Financial Mathematics (where you can learn advanced mathematical tools to apply in finance and economics). The 5 year duration of the degree actually permits you to do up to 4 majors. So you can do majors like Economics, Econometrics, Financial Mathematics and Statistics within your degree. It also buys you more time to build your resume for graduate positions as well as extend your knowledge to quite a comprehensive level.

If the duration is really a massive turn off then alternatively you can major in Economics and Mathematics within a 3 year Commerce degree alone. The trade-off is that you have less options to touch other areas outside those majors.

I'm not sure what your motivations are for undertaking postgraduate Economics...it is not really necessary if all you want at the end of the day is a job in industry.

 

[sida1049]

I'm reading this as you have an interest in mathematics but you want it specifically applied to economics.

If you have a strong mathematical appetite then I think a Science degree would better satisfy that need. I can tell you now from experience (I did a Comm/Sci degree) that the level and rigour of mathematics you do within the Business faculty will NEVER be anywhere near the calibre of the Science (or more specifically the Mathematics and Statistics) faculty. I would strongly advise you consider taking a Science degree and major in Financial Mathematics.

The Econometrics major is great as well, but in my view that is really a less mathematically rigorous version of the Statistics major offered by the Science faculty. Economics does eventually get mathematically rigorous in the pre-honours stream (especially in 3rd year) but even then the mathematical tools are nowhere near as advanced as those seen in the Financial Mathematics major.

As Amleops suggested, Comm/Sci seems best suited to you where you can major in Economics (where you can build the solid conceptual background in economic theory) and Financial Mathematics (where you can learn advanced mathematical tools to apply in finance and economics). The 5 year duration of the degree actually permits you to do up to 4 majors. So you can do majors like Economics, Econometrics, Financial Mathematics and Statistics within your degree. It also buys you more time to build your resume for graduate positions as well as extend your knowledge to quite a comprehensive level.

If the duration is really a massive turn off then alternatively you can major in Economics and Mathematics within a 3 year Commerce degree alone. The trade-off is that you have less options to touch other areas outside those majors.

I'm not sure what your motivations are for undertaking postgraduate Economics...it is not really necessary if all you want at the end of the day is a job in industry.

Thank you for your response.

I've considered a double degree, but I plan on undertaking an honours year in economics, which would lengthen the duration of my undergraduate courses to 6 years and accumulate in greater university fees. So while a double degree in Commerce and Science does appeal to me, I don't think the cost is outweighed by the benefits.

In addition to the employability garnered by postgraduate economics, I also seek to further my personal interest in economics. What were your experiences in university mathematics? Did you enjoy it? Were you particularly strong in mathematics prior to university? And finally, in your perspective, is a major in econometrics or mathematics more beneficial to the further pursuit of economics?

 

[JasonG123]

Thank you for your response.

I've considered a double degree, but I plan on undertaking an honours year in economics, which would lengthen the duration of my undergraduate courses to 6 years and accumulate in greater university fees. So while a double degree in Commerce and Science does appeal to me, I don't think the cost is outweighed by the benefits.

In addition to the employability garnered by postgraduate economics, I also seek to further my personal interest in economics. What were your experiences in university mathematics? Did you enjoy it? Were you particularly strong in mathematics prior to university? And finally, in your perspective, is a major in econometrics or mathematics more beneficial to the further pursuit of economics?

It probably won't matter too much in terms of employment prospects between maths and econometrics. It sounds like you would probably enjoy maths more, but you'll have the opportunity to take introductory courses in econometrics to gauge your interest in it anyway. Whichever one you choose, I would take as many electives from the other one as possible (even if you can't fit a whole major in).

In light of your comments about wanting to do Honours, I would probably consider Comm/Sci (maths) or Econ/Sci (maths) with Honours at UNSW then if you don't want to be at Uni for 6 years (since it'll only take 5 years there). The actual Honours year will be of similar quality between UNSW and Usyd I presume.

 

[Trebla]

Thank you for your response.

I've considered a double degree, but I plan on undertaking an honours year in economics, which would lengthen the duration of my undergraduate courses to 6 years and accumulate in greater university fees. So while a double degree in Commerce and Science does appeal to me, I don't think the cost is outweighed by the benefits.

In addition to the employability garnered by postgraduate economics, I also seek to further my personal interest in economics. What were your experiences in university mathematics? Did you enjoy it? Were you particularly strong in mathematics prior to university? And finally, in your perspective, is a major in econometrics or mathematics more beneficial to the further pursuit of economics?

Have you considered the Commerce (Liberal Studies) degree? That might be a good halfway point in between.

I personally wouldn't be thinking too far ahead about postgraduate studies because your perspective could potentially change during your undergraduate studies (e.g. it is common for people to find uni economics to not be what they expected at all, after all it is very different to HSC economics). Also, postgraduate studies are intended for those who are already working full time in industry or in academia.

I did Maths Ext2 in the HSC prior to uni and loved it so naturally I loved university mathematics which was an extension of that (especially the calculus courses), particularly on the applied side of things. Wasn't a big fan of pure maths though.

Econometrics and Mathematics (also consider a Statistics major from the Science faculty) offer quite different benefits to the Economics major.

Econometrics is a less sophisticated version of a Statistics major. The main benefit from Econometrics is that it is heavily application focused and more customised to the Economics major than a Mathematics or Statistics major. So expect a lot of computational work and interpreting the results you are given from the output of a model.

However, when it comes to understanding the theory behind it all, Econometrics is pretty terrible. Students are not assumed to have sophisticated mathematical backgrounds so when it comes to learning the theory, it is mainly a case of "here's a formula I pulled out of nowhere for this model/concept, now let's work on how to use it". There is no real understanding of how these models work and where they come from because doing so requires some sophisticated mathematical and statistical tools. This is analogous to how in HSC Maths (below Ext2 level), you are simply given a formula on how to find a volume of a solid of revolution to substitute numbers in with no real background on the theory of how that formula came about. It's more rote learning than understanding how things work.

Mathematics (or more specifically Statistics or Financial Mathematics) is quite the opposite. The main benefit is that you learn most of the theory from first principles and you gain an understanding of where concepts are coming from. If you want to learn some pretty sophisticated stuff in Economics then having a strong background in Mathematics and Statistics is advantageous to help you understand what is going on.

However, since the focus is more on the theory there is less focus on application. Expect more focus on proofs of properties and dealing with algebra moreso than actual numbers. If you take Statistics you will do some computational work but nowhere near as much as in Econometrics. Also, the types of concepts you cover in Mathematics and Statistics (though less so in Financial Mathematics) are more general and not always geared towards applications in Economics.